Any HVAC Experts in ATOT?

[RPD]

Thanks! So I guess that answers the question of if the pricing is within reason.

So since you work in the industry (and this is for all others as well) - Let's just say that their comments on mold was bullshit. Judging by some of the comments here - they might be overblowing it and acting as if it's the plague when in reality it might just be little and harmless....

The one remaining problem is the copper coils that are (and inevitably always will continue to) leak. Is this something I need to address? If so, what is the best course of action? Replacing the coils with aluminum ones? Or is that so expensive we might as well put in new units?

Personally just looking at that I’d want to replace the duct work. Unless you like to continually pay for a tech to come and repair/recharge the refrigerant in the system, I’d replace the coil that is leaking.

Copper is fine, copper coils are still used today. Some stuff is going all aluminum for a variety of reasons but copper/aluminum is still very normal.

You could always get a quote on the replacement coil and see, I couldn’t advise as I don’t deal much in residential unless it’s a huge custom house. If it’s only 10 years old getting parts won’t be an issue.

Actually gave the pics a closer look, doesn’t seem that bad, the drain pan and coil are the worse offenders for obvious reason.

 

[s0me0nesmind1]

Personally just looking at that I’d want to replace the duct work. Unless you like to continually pay for a tech to come and repair/recharge the refrigerant in the system, I’d replace the coil that is leaking.

Copper is fine, copper coils are still used today. Some stuff is going all aluminum for a variety of reasons but copper/aluminum is still very normal.

You could always get a quote on the replacement coil and see, I couldn’t advise as I don’t deal much in residential unless it’s a huge custom house. If it’s only 10 years old getting parts won’t be an issue.

Actually gave the pics a closer look, doesn’t seem that bad, the drain pan and coil are the worse offenders for obvious reason.

I guess the problem is that replacing the duct work + the coils already sounds $10k+ Is that about right for the products + Service required to replace all the ducts and coils?

I guess my main question to your point is... why replace all the ducts exactly? Main reason I ask is because others here seem to be... well.. minimizing how much mold is in there. In all honesty - I can't tell since the ducts themselves are black?

 

[skull]

Thanks! So I guess that answers the question of if the pricing is within reason.

So since you work in the industry (and this is for all others as well) - Let's just say that their comments on mold was bullshit. Judging by some of the comments here - they might be overblowing it and acting as if it's the plague when in reality it might just be little and harmless....

The one remaining problem is the copper coils that are (and inevitably always will continue to) leak. Is this something I need to address? If so, what is the best course of action? Replacing the coils with aluminum ones? Or is that so expensive we might as well put in new units?

Yeah they're overblowing it. I don't want to say its harmless but it more than likely is. The slime is the pan is probably just dirt from the air. Might want to have the unit checked to make sure its level so everything drains properly.

Your blower speed might be set too high and condensate is sucking off the coil and blowing on the duct board or could be that the duct work isn't big enough and its restrictive causing the same problem. Try having them set airflow to 350cfm/ton instead of the usual 400cfm/ton. You'll get better humidity removal which could help your issue too. 10 tons in 4000sgft would be grossly oversized here. Rule of thumb here is 600sqft a ton but we generally see 800 to 1000 in tighter more insulated houses these days. Oversizing screws up humidity removal as the units never run long enough and the condensate just sits on the coils and evaporates back off before the next call for cooling. Could be why you have the mold.

How much 410 did they have to add? You can always just them ride and juice them up every couple years if they don't leak that bad. If you replace the coils with aluminum ones your likely to find your self with the same problem in a few years. The coils suck these days copper/aluminum or just aluminum. I'd hold off as long as I could see if the coils improve as they get better with the all aluminum ones. The copper/aluminum ones were around for decades mostly problem free. The manufactuers are blaming the issue on formicary corrosion caused by all the chemicals in houses these days. Might have something to do with that but most likely just just them cheaping out on quality and thinning of the tubing. The aluminum ones seem to be better but haven't quite proved themselves yet. You'd be looking at about 4k-5k to replace all the evaporators but could always keep them and just change condensers later.

 

[RPD]

I guess the problem is that replacing the duct work + the coils already sounds $10k+ Is that about right for the products + Service required to replace all the ducts and coils?

I guess my main question to your point is... why replace all the ducts exactly? Main reason I ask is because others here seem to be... well.. minimizing how much mold is in there. In all honesty - I can't tell since the ducts themselves are black?

Don't worry about replacing the ducts, I'd just get a quote to replace the coil and associated work with just that. I can't comment on duct replacement price as I've never done it nor get into it.

I wouldn't say 10tons for 4500sq ft is GROSSLY oversized. First glace it does appear to be oversized, but depends on the envelope, does he have vaulted ceilings, lots a windows etc, throw in the humidity and it's probably only a little oversized but nothing I'd worry about.

Also get multiple quotes on the work, you'll find labor/parts pricing to vary greatly.

 

[skull]

I wouldn't say 10tons for 4500sq ft is GROSSLY oversized. First glace it does appear to be oversized, but depends on the envelope, does he have vaulted ceilings, lots a windows etc, throw in the humidity and it's probably only a little oversized but nothing I'd worry about.

Thats what the manual js for but sounds like hes in a newer build which I doubt he needs more than a ton for every 600sqft even in houston. Which means he could get away with 2 3s and a 1.5 which would be a huge difference. I'm sure hes got a lot of windows and vaulted ceilings in a house like the typical mcmansion. Going down in sizing that much would help a ton with humidity even then in the tight builds of today you'll want to consider a whole house dehumidifier.

 

[RPD]

Thats what the manual js for but sounds like hes in a newer build which I doubt he needs more than a ton for every 600sqft even in houston. Which means he could get away with 2 3s and a 1.5 which would be a huge difference. I'm sure hes got a lot of windows and vaulted ceilings in a house like the typical mcmansion. Going down in sizing that much would help a ton with humidity even then in the tight builds of today you'll want to consider a whole house dehumidifier.

Ah I forgot about the humidity issue, I don't know if the OP said he was having problems or not. But yes what Skull said in his previous post is correct about humidity control. Basically even if your house is at set point you could have high humidity because the system won't pull any moisture out of the air unless it's on (something all cooling systems naturally do while operating). So what happens in the oversized system it quickly meets set point (temperature) but doesn't have enough time to pull the moisture out of the air because it turns off so fast, so the space can feel sticky. But if you don't have this issue, you don't need to worry about it.

 

[s0me0nesmind1]

Thats what the manual js for but sounds like hes in a newer build which I doubt he needs more than a ton for every 600sqft even in houston. Which means he could get away with 2 3s and a 1.5 which would be a huge difference. I'm sure hes got a lot of windows and vaulted ceilings in a house like the typical mcmansion. Going down in sizing that much would help a ton with humidity even then in the tight builds of today you'll want to consider a whole house dehumidifier.

I guess what makes me doubt that it's too much is that this is builder's grade shit. This is a home building company (that makes homes all over multiple states across the US). I would guarantee that they would calculate this stuff to give the MINIMAL amounts possible on everything, no?

There are definitely tons of windows + high ceilings in the main living room areas though - I don't know about vaulted however.

 

[skull]

Ah I forgot about the humidity issue, I don't know if the OP said he was having problems or not. But yes what Skull said in his previous post is correct about humidity control. Basically even if your house is at set point you could have high humidity because the system won't pull any moisture out of the air unless it's on (something all cooling systems naturally do while operating). So what happens in the oversized system it quickly meets set point (temperature) but doesn't have enough time to pull the moisture out of the air because it turns off so fast, so the space can feel sticky. But if you don't have this issue, you don't need to worry about it.

I'm guessing humidity issues because of the mold. Plus tight new houses without whole house dehumidifiers have humidity issues even when the a/cs are sized right.

I guess what makes me doubt that it's too much is that this is builder's grade shit. This is a home building company (that makes homes all over multiple states across the US). I would guarantee that they would calculate this stuff to give the MINIMAL amounts possible on everything, no?

There are definitely tons of windows + high ceilings in the main living room areas though - I don't know about vaulted however.

Builders contractors suck they won't take the time to do a manual j they just slap equipment in by rule of thumb or they do a manual j and fudge the numbers because they don't think whats its telling them is big enough. Its a common problem in the industry oversized equipment and undersized duct work. Luckily when you put the right sized system in it generally solves the duct work issues.

Even manual j is oversized about 20%, my 100 year old 1250 sqft house had a 2.5 ton, manual j came back at 2 ton I put a 1.5 ton in and the thing works great. Here design temp is 75 inside when its 90 outside. The extra 20% is a cushion for when its 95 out. By undersizing mine I just won't ever see 75 when its 95 out which is fine for me. The thing cranks all days long and will still do 78 or so. Which is great for the unit, stopping and starting all the time is harder on it than just running. Its like city vs highway miles.

If you decide to replace the units I wouldn't go looking for a contractor on craigslist like someone recomended find a good one that will do a manual j. I'd also get a whole house dehumidifier and fresh air intake if you don't have it and some good media filters if you just got basic 1 inchers. Hell it'd be a fun project you might be able to talk me into another atot working vacation when I'm slow like right now because a GCs taking forever on a project that should of been ready for me weeks ago.

 

[Greenman]

I guess what makes me doubt that it's too much is that this is builder's grade shit. This is a home building company (that makes homes all over multiple states across the US). I would guarantee that they would calculate this stuff to give the MINIMAL amounts possible on everything, no?

There are definitely tons of windows + high ceilings in the main living room areas though - I don't know about vaulted however.

Unless it's code required, the HVAC contractor didn't do a manual J, and for the most part didn't design the system at all. Generally they simply oversize the systems to avoid call backs. All the duct work is done "rule of thumb" and generally not installed correctly. Here in CA there is talk of ending the use flex duct because of consistently poor installation. Everything will have be ridged pipe.

 

[Red Squirrel]

Those ducts don't look that bad. Any rust probably comes from things like fasteners, and not the actual coil. It's most likely iced at some point to cause that rust/corrosion though.

If you do suspect some of it is mold you could have it tested just to be safe. If these units have not fired in a long time and you're concerned about what may be in the ducts you could get a duct cleaning service in as well before you get a new unit.

 

[mindless1]

First off, I apologize for not reading all posts up till now. I am not an HVAC expert, but I did work in the industry a lifetime ago...

Herro ATOT.

Recently bought ourselves a new house. New Lesson in life: Regardless of inspections, hire an HVAC to inspect everything AC related on their own. NO QUESTION.

Turns out, the ACs on our new property seem to be filled with mold - and also the copper coils are (unsurprisingly) rusting and leaking.

This makes me question (everything, lol) the affiliation of the inspector with a repair company.

Dust gets through the system even with a filter, builds up, and that can in itself cause mold, or just be very similar looking to mold. You would need it tested to be sure, and of course there may be "some" mold, inherent in any system that condenses water, or at least fungus if the drain became partially plugged.

Coils leaking, is highly suspect if it still gets cold. If it gets low on refrigerant it will tend to ice up. Will there be some corrosion over time? Of course, but did the technician identify a leak? Without a sensor to do so, it is premature at least to diagnose a leak without other evidence like it not getting cold.

I understand that copper coils are something that ACs are no longer made with, because it is now widely understood that they leak as of today. I'm not surprised by this. I also understand that ACs are something that have a general lifespan of 10-15 years - and if you don't maintain it (like the previous owners) it will lean more towards the 10 year mark.

?? Not necessarily. Coils were made of copper that didn't leak for 20 years. It's just a more expensive metal while it still made sense to use aluminum fins.

Lifespan, it's a moving target. Climate, sizing for the building, initial build quality of the unit, of the fabbed installation, etc. You can expect a new midrange priced unit to have shorter lifespan due to the higher pressures used with newer refrigerant if nothing else and that elusive "higher efficiency" which means pushing everything harder for it.

Regardless, we called an HVAC to our new home today to look things over. They are basically under the impression that we should replace everything. Given the coils falling apart, mold in the ducts, etc... I'm inclined to... at least... mostly agree with them. These are AC units that are builders grade that are right at 10 years old. It's pretty apparent that the previous owners didn't take very good care of them.

Most homes do start out with builder's grade units. That's including units that last 15-20 years instead of only 10, BUT if you have to start paying someone to service them, then you have to estimate the cost for it. Some pay yearly for service, $100 or more each unit, which adds up. The greater question to me is whether there is mold contamination which you can measure elsewhere in the dwelling rather than a guess about a tiny bit in the HVAC stack.

So since we recently bought the home, we have a home warranty service. The A/C Repair company we are working with has basically said they will utilize the home warranty service, as well as manufacturer discounts (Trane) to equal a total of about $22,000 out of pocket to us. This is to replace 3 A/C units, the ducts, coils, etc... all throughout the home. Also comes with parts and labor warranty for 10 years.

This seems like an elaborate scheme to screw people. Trane is overpriced and their service leaves something to be desired. It's the last brand I'd ever go with, so any pretend savings, is probably a lie. You're probably paying at least $5K more than you would with an equal quality different brand with better parts availability and costs.

If you want to pay that premium towards a 10 year warranty, it's up to you but look into what it covers, as some things have a warranty of a few years anyway and what are the terms? Must you pay someone to do XYZ service to retain that warranty at some annual period?

Any HVAC experts or experienced folks here want to comment on how screwed I'm getting? Or how decent the deal is?

There is no easy answer to how decent the deal is except I'm pretty sure it's a few thousand overpriced. Replacing one unit with another, costs change as the plumbing (gas and air not just water) routes change, as the stack size changes, how much of the ductwork they are going to open up for mold remediation versus just spraying some chemical in.

Long story short, I would get a 2nd and 3rd estimate. You might be able to get the cost lower than quoted even without any home warranty involved, and have it cheaper to repair later.

Trane... no. Out of principle I would not give them business.

 

[WilliamM2]

Trane... no. Out of principle I would not give them business.

What's wrong with Trane? Mine has worked flawlessly, couldn't say the same for Lennox.

 

[mindless1]

Trane used to be an industry leader (many years ago) but are now depending on their name to charge a premium price and parts are harder to come by. With many of the other brands like Bryant, Carrier, Payne, Tempstar, Day & Night, Heil, Kenmore, the parts inside are shared between them, so you have a much larger pool of service people familiar with them, and better parts availability and pricing. IMO availability is significant with heat or A/C, you may need it working again ASAP when it fails.

https://www.consumeraffairs.com/homeowners/trane.html

Granted on a site like the above, people tend to go there to complain but I don't see Trane being worth the money today.

 

[s0me0nesmind1]

Trane used to be an industry leader (many years ago) but are now depending on their name to charge a premium price and parts are harder to come by. With many of the other brands like Bryant, Carrier, Payne, Tempstar, Day & Night, Heil, Kenmore, the parts inside are shared between them, so you have a much larger pool of service people familiar with them, and better parts availability and pricing. IMO availability is significant with heat or A/C, you may need it working again ASAP when it fails.

https://www.consumeraffairs.com/homeowners/trane.html

Granted on a site like the above, people tend to go there to complain but I don't see Trane being worth the money today.

So which brand would you go with? My understanding is that as far as the industry as a whole as far as best after-market ACs, there are 3 big ones: Lennox (HVACs have been telling me that their current product line-up have had numerous issues), Carrier (I believe?) and Trane.

 

[dyna]

Herro ATOT.

Recently bought ourselves a new house. New Lesson in life: Regardless of inspections, hire an HVAC to inspect everything AC related on their own. NO QUESTION.

Turns out, the ACs on our new property seem to be filled with mold - and also the copper coils are (unsurprisingly) rusting and leaking. I understand that copper coils are something that ACs are no longer made with, because it is now widely understood that they leak as of today. I'm not surprised by this. I also understand that ACs are something that have a general lifespan of 10-15 years - and if you don't maintain it (like the previous owners) it will lean more towards the 10 year mark.

Regardless, we called an HVAC to our new home today to look things over. They are basically under the impression that we should replace everything. Given the coils falling apart, mold in the ducts, etc... I'm inclined to... at least... mostly agree with them. These are AC units that are builders grade that are right at 10 years old. It's pretty apparent that the previous owners didn't take very good care of them.

For reference, the home has 3 units - 2 that are 4 tons (upstairs/downstairs), 1 that is 2 tons (master bedroom).

So since we recently bought the home, we have a home warranty service. The A/C Repair company we are working with has basically said they will utilize the home warranty service, as well as manufacturer discounts (Trane) to equal a total of about $22,000 out of pocket to us. This is to replace 3 A/C units, the ducts, coils, etc... all throughout the home. Also comes with parts and labor warranty for 10 years.

Any HVAC experts or experienced folks here want to comment on how screwed I'm getting? Or how decent the deal is?

Moved from OT.
admin allisolm

I had a small mold problem with my HVAC, they only replaced the areas with the mold. I'm not sure the extent you have but if it is localized, it may not be necessary to replace the entire duct system. I don't know if this was a good idea but I took their suggestion and also installed a RGF REME HVAC Halo in the plenums.

If the AC is keeping your house cool, I wouldn't replace anything. If there is a leak, you will notice the problem and then call them out at that time and have the problem component evaluated/replaced.

 

[WilliamM2]

Trane used to be an industry leader (many years ago) but are now depending on their name to charge a premium price and parts are harder to come by. With many of the other brands like Bryant, Carrier, Payne, Tempstar, Day & Night, Heil, Kenmore, the parts inside are shared between them, so you have a much larger pool of service people familiar with them, and better parts availability and pricing. IMO availability is significant with heat or A/C, you may need it working again ASAP when it fails.

https://www.consumeraffairs.com/homeowners/trane.html

Granted on a site like the above, people tend to go there to complain but I don't see Trane being worth the money today.

Every brand on that site is rated 1 star. The only thing that looks unique to me on a Trane, is the spine fin condensor coils. Not hard to get, and they were the first to go all aluminum on their coils. Indoor and out.

Of course availability of parts on any brand will depend on the area and distributors.

I had quotes with Trane , Carrier, and Goodman. Trane was actually a little less than the others. Not enough to matter, but they were the only ones to do a manual J calc, instead of just replacing what was there. The company just seemed more competent. My return ducts were too small for what was already there, and as I said, it was way over sized.

 

[mindless1]

So which brand would you go with? My understanding is that as far as the industry as a whole as far as best after-market ACs, there are 3 big ones: Lennox (HVACs have been telling me that their current product line-up have had numerous issues), Carrier (I believe?) and Trane.

Last one I went with was Tempstar, an IPC brand, but IPC was acquired by Carrier a couple decades ago. Many of the models between these brands are the same. My cousin who is a licensed pro HVAC tech (though mostly for larger systems) helped select and install it.

Granted, these are all established brands and it makes more difference that you have a competent installer looking out for your interests more than their pocketbook.

 

[Red Squirrel]

Always been a fan of Bryant myself, but that's all I really know, like my parent's had a Bryant furnace, and so do I, and I've worked on both and never had any serious issues. Parts are easy enough to come by. That's just based on my limited experience as a non hvac tech mind you.

 

[skull]

So which brand would you go with? My understanding is that as far as the industry as a whole as far as best after-market ACs, there are 3 big ones: Lennox (HVACs have been telling me that their current product line-up have had numerous issues), Carrier (I believe?) and Trane.

I like trane and carrier. I'll agree with the parts issues with tranes but they're not near as bad as lennox for that. I prefer tranes quality over carrier but williams not wrong about the more proprietary parts. My go to is goodman though, they're the same quality as carrier in my opinion and a lot cheaper, the parts are also universal are readily available. They have a bad rep because hacks install them. Properly installed they are comparable to carrier. Carrier is also bryant, tempstar, heil, etc. Brands not near as important as the quality of install. I'd also stay away from all the high SEER, multi stage stuff. Its more expensive to buy, more expensive to fix and more likely to break. You'll never see the money you save on your electric bill. On top of it the basic units have more universal parts so your a lot less likely to have to wait for a part to be shipped in when it does break.

 

[Red Squirrel]

I would at least do 90% efficient single stage but yeah anything more is probably too complicated. 2 stage might be ok too, but not sure if I'd be a fan of the modulating ones, seems they would be more complex to fix.

Just make sure you use the ones with the two PVC pipes, any combustion appliance with a single pipe is inefficient as it's sucking air out of your house. I wish 2 pipe hot water tanks were actually more common. They make them but they just arn't that commonly found or installed.

 

[skull]

I would at least do 90% efficient single stage but yeah anything more is probably too complicated. 2 stage might be ok too, but not sure if I'd be a fan of the modulating ones, seems they would be more complex to fix.

Just make sure you use the ones with the two PVC pipes, any combustion appliance with a single pipe is inefficient as it's sucking air out of your house. I wish 2 pipe hot water tanks were actually more common. They make them but they just arn't that commonly found or installed.

Hes way down south guessing its a heat pump or he may even need heat so little there they do straight ac with a tiny elec backup or no heat at all.

 

[sdifox]

First off, copper doesn't rust. So if the coils are rusty that rust is coming from somewhere else.
The system might be "filled with mold", something I've never seen, but why wouldn't the new system do the exact same thing? There is an element here that isn't being addressed. If there is actual mold growing in the system you should have it tested before anything else happens. You might be looking at Hazmat project and not a simple replacement. Some molds are very dangerous, and exposure can land you in the hospital.

Around here most HVAC company's aren't much interested in repairing systems or solving problems, they want to sell a new system, so that becomes the answer to every problem.
Get a flashlight and poke around a little, you might discover that you don't need a new system.

... What do you mean copper doesn't rust?

My bad. It corrodes. Language barrier xd.

 

[lsd]

I would just replace just the coils and spend the rest on better insulation. I have a 4200sq ft house in central Florida and I have two 2.5ton units.
I had 1 coil replaced and the replacement was fully aluminum. Your placement coils maybe fully aluminum too.

 

[Ketchup]

Very good post by mindless1. Just to hit some points, as others have stated:
1. get at least 3 different quotes. They should vary a good bit. Honestly that first one sounds like the standard "scare the customer let's sell them an overpriced Trane" crap I have heard before.
2. As otherw have stated, your ducts do not look that bad.
3. Even considering the size of the home, it really does sound like too much tonage, so put up a big red flag if someone offers to replace your units with the same.
4. There is nothing wrong with copper.

 

[Greenman]

So which brand would you go with? My understanding is that as far as the industry as a whole as far as best after-market ACs, there are 3 big ones: Lennox (HVACs have been telling me that their current product line-up have had numerous issues), Carrier (I believe?) and Trane.

There is also Goodman. Every HVAC guy on earth will tell you they are the worst trash made. They also happen to be the only company that will sell to the public, costing the HVAC guys their 400% markup.