Anxious and Weary of War, G.I.'s Face a New Iraq Mission

BOBDN

Banned
May 21, 2002
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This sounds like a recipe for chaos. Nice planning. I guess Bush, Cheney, and Rumsfeld don't need to worry about any of this sitting on their comfortable government furniture in Washington.

Only the poor grunts in the field need to worry. The three I mentioned above were never in that position. They just enjoy putting OTHER people in harms way without a plan. Think about it next time they come up with some cockamamie invasion scheme.


IN THE FIELD | THIRD INFANTRY DIVISION
Anxious and Weary of War, G.I.'s Face a New Iraq Mission
By STEVEN LEE MYERS


BAGHDAD, Iraq, June 14 ? Sgt. Jaime A. Betancourt was there in March when a taxi loaded with explosives killed four of his company's soldiers at a checkpoint. He was there in April when his battalion seized the road out of the international airport and Saddam Hussein's army made its last desperate defense.

He was there later that month when his company, part of the First Brigade of the Army's Third Infantry Division, crossed the Tigris River and began to restore order in Baghdad's eastern half as chaos threatened to unravel the victory the brigade had helped win.

He is still here today, enduring infernal heat and fetid quarters in the ransacked headquarters of Iraq's Interior Ministry, as much of the Third Infantry Division remains in the city it helped conquer, interacting with people it once saw as the enemy.

"I think that was the most scary thing ? trusting civilians, especially after the car bomb," Sergeant Betancourt, 21, said, referring to the taxi bombing, the worst single attack against the brigade's troops, on March 29, near Najaf, about 85 miles south of Baghdad. "We didn't want nothing to do with these people anymore."

As he stood guard at a hospital, as he enforced curfew at checkpoints, as he patrolled streets once again bustling with Iraqis, even the children terrified Sergeant Betancourt, who appears barely older than a child himself.

"At the end," he said, "it was like, `Get that kid away from me.' "

It was not supposed to end this way for the brigade's 5,000 soldiers, who were accompanied by a reporter during the war and again this month in Baghdad. After fighting their way from the Kuwaiti border to Saddam International Airport in three fierce weeks, they believed that the war ? or at least their part of it ? was over.

Six months after arriving in Kuwait and almost three months after entering Iraq, they were ready to go home. Then they discovered that, at least from a soldier's-eye view on the ground, there seemed to be no American plan for a postwar Iraq.


The mayhem that followed the collapse of Mr. Hussein's government on April 9 has thrust them into a new mission: keeping peace, even as their weary minds and bodies are still at war.

"You call Donald Rumsfeld and tell him our sorry asses are ready to go home," Pfc. Matthew C. O'Dell, an infantryman in Sergeant Betancourt's platoon, said as he stood guard on Tuesday. "Tell him to come spend a night in our building."

Two months after surging into Baghdad, the First Brigade's soldiers have found themselves enmeshed in yet another war ? less intense, perhaps, but still exhausting, still perilous and, at times, still psychologically taxing. Some are haunted by the deaths they caused ? and suffered ? and have sought counseling. All are tired and hot and increasingly bitter. Morale has plummeted as sharply as the temperature has risen.

Last Saturday night, Sergeant Betancourt's company sent a Humvee and an armored personnel carrier on a mission to fix the satellite phone their company had bought in Baghdad. As they were returning, someone threw a grenade from an overpass. It exploded only a few feet away, rattling but not seriously wounding two soldiers.

"If it had been a split second earlier, it'd have been bad," Staff Sgt. Ray B. Robinson, a squad leader in Sergeant Betancourt's company, said. "They're killing us."

He added later, "Enough is enough."

Curfew
Enforcing the Peace at the End of the War


When the First Brigade's troops arrived in late April, replacing the marines who had seized the area as Mr. Hussein's control evaporated, they encountered fires, looting and rampant violence. The brigade's sectors covered a wide swath where more than a million Iraqis ? Sunnis, Shiites and Christians ? live in a volatile mix.

The brigade, commanded by Col. William F. Grimsley, imposed a curfew, from 11 p.m. to 4 a.m., and began arresting those who violated it, as many as 1,000 people a night. Colonel Grimsley said troops had killed more than 100 Iraqis who appeared to pose a threat to American forces.

On May 8, a crowd gathered in the street around Pfc. Marlin T. Rockhold, 23, of Hamilton, Ohio, as he was directing traffic at a bridge in northern Baghdad. A man with a gun approached him from behind and shot him dead. Another soldier from the unit ? the brigade's Third Battalion, Seventh Infantry Regiment ? was wounded in a similar attack, leading officers to believe that both attacks were the work of one man. Whoever it was escaped.

On May 26, Pfc. Jeremiah D. Smith died when a remote-controlled mine detonated under his Humvee as he was escorting new troops and equipment to and from the airport. Private Smith, 25, was a member of the 34th Armored Regiment at Fort Riley, Kan., but was assigned to the brigade's Second Battalion, Seventh Infantry Regiment. He died two days before he was scheduled to go home. Three other soldiers were wounded.


Now, this part of Baghdad, like much of the rest of Iraq, has returned to normal, at least as normal is defined here: dust and poverty, trash-filled gutters and pools of sewage in streets and courtyards. The number of nightly arrests has fallen sharply. One night last week, soldiers confiscated only three rifles and three pistols, compared with hundreds taken nightly in the beginning.

"It's not the Wild West anymore," said Lt. Col. Todd R. Wood, the new commander of the Second Battalion.

After six weeks of patrols in his area, Colonel Grimsley said the level of violent crime was lower than in Atlanta, the nearest big city to the brigade's base in Georgia. Shops and cafes have reopened. Vendors have appeared again on sidewalks, selling cigarettes and sodas. Traffic, even traffic jams, have returned.

"When this bicycle shop opened about a week after we got here, I knew we were going to be O.K.," Colonel Grimsley said as he rode in an armored Humvee through Adhamiya, the neighborhood where Mr. Hussein is reported to have made his last known public appearance, on April 9, just as Baghdad was about to fall.

But the situation is still unstable. On June 1, a firefight erupted at the Abu Hanifa Mosque only a few hundred yards from the bicycle shop. A grenade was thrown from a car toward soldiers guarding a checkpoint. Snipers opened fire from at least one building nearby. Two soldiers from the First Armored Division were wounded. An Iraqi civilian died.

Charity
Restoring a City a Step at a Time


With the war over, the brigade's soldiers turned to what Colonel Grimsley called "little good works," projects intended to rebuild Baghdad and to build trust in an occupying force.

Through the last days of April and into May, the brigade cleared the streets of the detritus of war: hundreds of burned vehicles, piles of masonry and brick, garbage spilling off sidewalks, the rotting carcasses of donkeys, cows and dogs.

Lt. Col. Thomas P. Smith, commander of the brigade's 11th Engineer Battalion, estimated that the troops had removed hundreds of tons of debris as well as thousands of weapons and untold rounds of ammunition, stockpiling them for what will someday be the new Iraqi Army.

More than 40 million dinars that had been found or confiscated ? $200,000 to $300,000, depending on the wildly fluctuating exchange rate ? was turned over to schools and hospitals or used to hire hundreds of day laborers, desperate for work.

One night the brigade arrested scores of looters; the next day they hired many of them.

For the soldiers, it was a jarring transition. Many had served as peacekeepers in Bosnia or Kosovo, but few felt prepared to restore order to a country so soon after war.


"How do you want to break down this wall of wanting to fight?" said Capt. James R. Lockridge, a combat engineer whose job only weeks ago had been to clear mines, to knock down enemy defenses, to destroy weapons and ammunition.

The other day he found himself walking through Al Wasity Hospital, which looters had stripped of virtually everything down to electrical wires, as they had in so many hospitals in Baghdad.

The hospital has become a pet project. Captain Lockridge hired Adnan al-Safar, an electrical engineer, as his foreman, and together they oversaw repairs, replacing lights and circuit breakers, reinstalling air-conditioners, unclogging sewage lines and repairing pipes that had left the hospital without running water.

"You have to trust them," he said in a corridor crowded with patients: men with gunshot wounds, children with broken limbs, women with newborns. "There are 40 or 50 Iraqis around us right now. There could be a suicide bomber."

He paused and added: "At some point you just have to let go. You have to let go of that fear or you won't get anything done."

The needs are immense, his means limited. His goal, he said, was simply "getting Baghdad back to where it's Baghdad."

As he walked out of the hospital, the hospital's ambulance driver confronted him. The hospital had only one ambulance and needed more. "I think there's one over at the Police Academy," Captain Lockridge told him, through an interpreter. "I'll look into that today."

Morale
News From Home Is Not Always Good


The First Brigade received orders in May to prepare to go home via Kuwait. Late last month, Maj. Mark B. Nordstrom, the brigade chaplain, and Capt. Kevin A. Bayles, the brigade doctor, gave their briefings to soldiers about the emotional and physical adjustments they were likely to experience.

Their replacements, the First Armored Division, had arrived and had begun to take over their patrols.

Then a new order came. The First Brigade would stay to act as a reserve in case Baghdad tumbled back into anarchy; its sister brigade, the Second, went to quell pockets of fighters in Falluja, to the west. Only the Third Brigade was going home, along with unneeded units, like the artillery battalions and the division's band.


Back in Georgia, where the Third Infantry Division is based at Fort Stewart and Fort Benning, families had already made "Welcome Home" banners. They were told to stop sending mail on May 21, so most soldiers are not receiving letters or packages anymore.

Major Nordstrom described the last two weeks as "the hardest weeks of my career as a chaplain." He drew a distinction between morale and "fighting morale." He said he meant that the soldiers would still do their jobs, but that they were not happy about it.

Several soldiers have received psychological counseling after showing signs of combat stress: nightmares, sleeplessness, edginess, outbursts of anger and what the chaplain called "intrusive thoughts."

"We have guys whose wives are sick, but not sick enough for them to get emergency leave; guys whose wives are cheating on them ? they've heard through the grapevine," Major Nordstrom said. "And you know, the hardest thing is we don't have anything to offer them."


The mission remains as important as the battles that preceded it, for if some order is not brought to Iraq and the economy restored to a functioning state, the war these men fought so hard to win may seem to have been in vain.

Colonel Grimsley puts it in a larger, political context, understanding the importance of success in Iraq for President Bush and his re-election campaign next year.

"They have invested everything in this," he said.

For the soldiers, this is little solace.


Private O'Dell's wife gave birth to a son on May 31. Sergeant Betancourt married his wife, Nadine, on Dec. 30 and on Jan. 5 reported to a new assignment at Fort Stewart. By the end of that month, he was in Kuwait. He has spent six days with his new wife.

He is of Colombian descent, born in Miami, raised in Medellín. He attended a military academy in Colombia, but spent his last year of high school in Miami so he could learn English and join the Army.

"It wouldn't be so bad if they said nothing," Sergeant Betancourt said about going home.

Then he echoed a complaint heard without exception among the brigade's soldiers. "We're war fighters," he said. "Our job is done."

It was the division's commander, Maj. Gen. Buford C. Blount III, who broke the news of the assignment extension during a conference call to reporters in Georgia two weeks ago. He acknowledged the strains it was causing but said that with a new mission, "morale's getting better every day."

Almost no one here seems to see it that way. Most of the brigade's troops ? the staff members at headquarters and the Second Battalion ? are stationed around the Interior Ministry not far from the city's Olympic Stadium. As many as 10 soldiers to a room live in the building's offices, where there is sporadic electricity and no running water.


The building is hot and stifling and reeks of sweat and filth and human waste. Some soldiers have bought air-conditioners, but they are only as reliable as the electricity. During the day, a dusty, smoky haze settles over Baghdad. Helicopters thud slowly overhead, searching for signs of unrest. At night, there are distant bursts of gunfire, but nowhere near the number these soldiers heard when they first arrived. Things feel safer, but not safe.

Authority
Shifting From Battle to Public Relations


First Lt. Wayne Sok rode a tank as the brigade fought its way to Baghdad. He rides a Humvee now, patrolling the dusty, trash-strewn neighborhood of Riyadh in the city's southeast sector.

During the war, he and the tank crew he commanded killed dozens of Iraqi fighters. During the peace, he organized the election of Iraqis to a neighborhood advisory council. In the neighborhood, he is the face of absolute authority. He is 25.

Last Friday, still in his flak vest, he negotiated a microloan for two of the council's members, Huda Ismail Muhammad and Safana Abdul Hamid Ali. Colonel Grimsley had offered to give the two women money to create a small business selling the kerchiefs and tablecloths they knit at home.

"Four sewing machines," the committee's president, Salaam Hanoon Moslit, said, acting as translator and mediator, as he began to enumerate their needs. "Is it reasonable?"

"Whatever you want," the lieutenant said.

The women conferred in rapid Arabic.

"Six machines," Mr. Moslit said.

By the time they asked for an air-conditioner and a car, it was clear there was a misunderstanding. The women wanted to open a factory; the lieutenant explained that the idea was for them to profit from the work they did at home.

Lieutenant Sok returned to the council's next meeting, on Tuesday night, with a compromise: the Army would give the women $500 to help them make enough of their knittings to sell at a market and provide them with customers by busing in officials with the new interim American authority under L. Paul Bremer III, the Bush administration's provisional governor.

"We will do our best to make it successful; first for us, second for you," Mr. Moslit responded. Then he offered an aside, out of earshot of the lieutenant.

He complained about the putrid water that had built up in the neighborhood's streets after a sewage pipe broke. He complained that he could not open his restaurant for lack of propane and customers. He complained that his council had no contact with the new authorities here, besides Lieutenant Sok.

"They work very slowly," he said of the Americans. "Our people are beginning to get angry, and it's not going to be good."

Lieutenant Sok, from Murfreesboro, Tenn., is striving to do good in this midsummer heat, learning how to jump-start a society, entirely by his wits and instinct. In his military training, he noted, "they didn't teach us any of this stuff."

He went to Middle Tennessee State University and joined the Army a year and a half ago. A few months ago, he said, he focused on only one thing: war. It taught him something.

"Before the war, I was, like, not sure if I could shoot anybody," he said. "I don't feel like that now."

When the war ended, he, too, had to adjust. Driving his Humvee, he pointed to an approaching car and explained it this way: "Like that vehicle: it'd be dead now. Any vehicle coming toward me."
 

Dari

Lifer
Oct 25, 2002
17,134
38
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Sounds like a recipe for chaos? You obviously don't know what you're talking about. What do you want the political leaders to do? Go out there and fight along with the soldiers? They're leaders. Do you see General Frank in the line of fire? How about the Chief of Staff? WTF is your point in posting this crap? Yes, soldiers do get tired. But they can be rotated. Yes, they're in the line. But they are soldiers. If you want a real debate, then you should post something debatable, instead of pointing out the obvious.
 

BOBDN

Banned
May 21, 2002
2,579
0
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Originally posted by: Dari
Sounds like a recipe for chaos? You obviously don't know what you're talking about. What do you want the political leaders to do? Go out there and fight along with the soldiers? They're leaders. Do you see General Frank in the line of fire? How about the Chief of Staff? WTF is your point in posting this crap? Yes, soldiers do get tired. But they can be rotated. Yes, they're in the line. But they are soldiers. If you want a real debate, then you should post something debatable, instead of pointing out the obvious.

General Franks is a lifer who was in country. Bush, Cheney, Rumsfeld, Wolfowitz, Perle......all of them chickenhawks. Never spent a day in combat but just LOVE to see someone else in harms way. Hypocrites.

As for the soldiers being rotated. Didn't you bother to read any of this? The troops that were supposed to be rotated were given new orders. Stay in Iraq to back up their relief. This is all due to poor planning by the chickenhawks listed above.

Wake up and smell the coffee. You don't want to debate these points becuase Bush and Co. screwed this whole mess up from lying about WMD to get it started to having no exit strategy and no plan for after the fighting ended.

That's why Iraq is in chaos now. And that's why Iraq wont be the shining star of freedom and democracy in the Arab world the Bush administration is claiming it will be. The have no plan other than their own self serving agenda. And our troops are paying the price for their mistakes. They're getting sick and tired of it. I agree with them.
 

UltraQuiet

Banned
Sep 22, 2001
5,755
0
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Never spent a day in combat but just LOVE to see someone else in harms way.

So it's your contention that they enjoy sending people into harm's way?

You wonder why I'm always calling you an idiot.
 

Dari

Lifer
Oct 25, 2002
17,134
38
91
Originally posted by: BOBDN
Originally posted by: Dari
Sounds like a recipe for chaos? You obviously don't know what you're talking about. What do you want the political leaders to do? Go out there and fight along with the soldiers? They're leaders. Do you see General Frank in the line of fire? How about the Chief of Staff? WTF is your point in posting this crap? Yes, soldiers do get tired. But they can be rotated. Yes, they're in the line. But they are soldiers. If you want a real debate, then you should post something debatable, instead of pointing out the obvious.

General Franks is a lifer who was in country. Bush, Cheney, Rumsfeld, Wolfowitz, Perle......all of them chickenhawks. Never spent a day in combat but just LOVE to see someone else in harms way. Hypocrites.

As for the soldiers being rotated. Didn't you bother to read any of this? The troops that were supposed to be rotated were given new orders. Stay in Iraq to back up their relief. This is all due to poor planning by the chickenhawks listed above.

Wake up and smell the coffee. You don't want to debate these points becuase Bush and Co. screwed this whole mess up from lying about WMD to get it started to having no exit strategy and no plan for after the fighting ended.

That's why Iraq is in chaos now. And that's why Iraq wont be the shining star of freedom and democracy in the Arab world the Bush administration is claiming it will be. The have no plan other than their own self serving agenda. And our troops are paying the price for their mistakes. They're getting sick and tired of it. I agree with them.

if you new the smallest amount about military history, or history in general, you'd know that political leaders stay out of harms way for a reason. Again, what is your reason for making this thread?
 

BOBDN

Banned
May 21, 2002
2,579
0
0
Originally posted by: Dari
Originally posted by: BOBDN
Originally posted by: Dari
Sounds like a recipe for chaos? You obviously don't know what you're talking about. What do you want the political leaders to do? Go out there and fight along with the soldiers? They're leaders. Do you see General Frank in the line of fire? How about the Chief of Staff? WTF is your point in posting this crap? Yes, soldiers do get tired. But they can be rotated. Yes, they're in the line. But they are soldiers. If you want a real debate, then you should post something debatable, instead of pointing out the obvious.

General Franks is a lifer who was in country. Bush, Cheney, Rumsfeld, Wolfowitz, Perle......all of them chickenhawks. Never spent a day in combat but just LOVE to see someone else in harms way. Hypocrites.

As for the soldiers being rotated. Didn't you bother to read any of this? The troops that were supposed to be rotated were given new orders. Stay in Iraq to back up their relief. This is all due to poor planning by the chickenhawks listed above.

Wake up and smell the coffee. You don't want to debate these points becuase Bush and Co. screwed this whole mess up from lying about WMD to get it started to having no exit strategy and no plan for after the fighting ended.

That's why Iraq is in chaos now. And that's why Iraq wont be the shining star of freedom and democracy in the Arab world the Bush administration is claiming it will be. The have no plan other than their own self serving agenda. And our troops are paying the price for their mistakes. They're getting sick and tired of it. I agree with them.

if you new the smallest amount about military history, or history in general, you'd know that political leaders stay out of harms way for a reason. Again, what is your reason for making this thread?

YAWN......what about "leaders" who weren't leaders while they dodged the draft.

My point in posting this thread is to highlight the terrible situation our troops find themselves in due to the WMD lie Bush and Co. used to start this mess as well as the poor planning that led to the chaos now prevelant in Iraq.

Now stop BSing around and reply to the issues raised by the soldiers in the article.


 

burnedout

Diamond Member
Oct 12, 1999
6,249
2
0
Well BOBDN, I must hand it to you. At least you continuously advocate your agenda.

After 20 years in the Army, 14 of which were served in the infantry, one becomes somewhat qualified in rendering an opinion. By the way, how long did you serve? And incidentally, how accomodating of you in finally taking up for our military after paragraphs of vehement, anti-governmental rhetoric.

-The remarks, comments, etc. contained in the piece are nothing new. In fact, from intimate first hand experience, I can safely state that servicemen have bitched about ongoing operations since the founding of this nation. Is their present, respective situation comfortable? Negative. However, as those of us who formerly wore the uniform catagorically state: "it comes with the territory". Can one justify the presence of U.S. troops there in the first place? This remains a subject of debate; a subject which may require years before we might obtain a semi-accurate answer. Was burnedout in favor of it to begin with? No.

This sounds like a recipe for chaos. Nice planning. I guess Bush, Cheney, and Rumsfeld don't need to worry about any of this sitting on their comfortable government furniture in Washington.

Only the poor grunts in the field need to worry. The three I mentioned above were never in that position. They just enjoy putting OTHER people in harms way without a plan. Think about it next time they come up with some cockamamie invasion scheme.

At least get your facts straight. Planning for the occupation of Iraq began well before combat operations commenced.

"Administration national security planners have described a postwar Iraq scenario involving a U.S. occupation lasting as long as 18 months and military trials of senior Iraqi officials."

Sacramento Bee, March 18th

And furthermore, how much combat experience did such illustrious presidents as FDR and Clinton actually possess?
 

Dari

Lifer
Oct 25, 2002
17,134
38
91
Originally posted by: BOBDN
Originally posted by: Dari
Originally posted by: BOBDN
Originally posted by: Dari
Sounds like a recipe for chaos? You obviously don't know what you're talking about. What do you want the political leaders to do? Go out there and fight along with the soldiers? They're leaders. Do you see General Frank in the line of fire? How about the Chief of Staff? WTF is your point in posting this crap? Yes, soldiers do get tired. But they can be rotated. Yes, they're in the line. But they are soldiers. If you want a real debate, then you should post something debatable, instead of pointing out the obvious.

General Franks is a lifer who was in country. Bush, Cheney, Rumsfeld, Wolfowitz, Perle......all of them chickenhawks. Never spent a day in combat but just LOVE to see someone else in harms way. Hypocrites.

As for the soldiers being rotated. Didn't you bother to read any of this? The troops that were supposed to be rotated were given new orders. Stay in Iraq to back up their relief. This is all due to poor planning by the chickenhawks listed above.

Wake up and smell the coffee. You don't want to debate these points becuase Bush and Co. screwed this whole mess up from lying about WMD to get it started to having no exit strategy and no plan for after the fighting ended.

That's why Iraq is in chaos now. And that's why Iraq wont be the shining star of freedom and democracy in the Arab world the Bush administration is claiming it will be. The have no plan other than their own self serving agenda. And our troops are paying the price for their mistakes. They're getting sick and tired of it. I agree with them.

if you new the smallest amount about military history, or history in general, you'd know that political leaders stay out of harms way for a reason. Again, what is your reason for making this thread?

YAWN......what about "leaders" who weren't leaders while they dodged the draft.

My point in posting this thread is to highlight the terrible situation our troops find themselves in due to the WMD lie Bush and Co. used to start this mess as well as the poor planning that led to the chaos now prevelant in Iraq.

Now stop BSing around and reply to the issues raised by the soldiers in the article.

you're full of it. You post was just another lame attempt to lambast Bush and his administration. In my opinion, this war was just and long overdue. Perhaps, if clinton had taken care of this problem, we wouldn't be in most of this mess. And don't forget that these soldiers are in a warzone. IT's not the Ritz Carlton, and it'll never be. Furthermore, military planners and political leaders planned to the best of their abilities. Your politically motivated snipe at them is sad and unwarranted.

Whether it was WMD, terrorism, or the fact that Hussein was the head of an outlaw regime, his actions in the 1990s should've led to an earlier gulf war and his immediate disposal. Furthermore, you can't criticize the war-planners without either having a better plan yourself or risk being called a hypocrite.
 

sMiLeYz

Platinum Member
Feb 3, 2003
2,696
0
76
The point BOBDN is trying to make is that this war is wrong, unjustified and never should have happened.

There are no weapons of mass destruction, no links to al qaeda, the people dont want us there never asked us to come in the first place; the rest of the world resents us and not only that but the Soldiers want to come back.

Real men and women from the US and Iraq died because of a lie by our great leader.

 

charrison

Lifer
Oct 13, 1999
17,033
1
81
Originally posted by: BOBDN
This sounds like a recipe for chaos. Nice planning. I guess Bush, Cheney, and Rumsfeld don't need to worry about any of this sitting on their comfortable government furniture in Washington.

Only the poor grunts in the field need to worry. The three I mentioned above were never in that position. They just enjoy putting OTHER people in harms way without a plan. Think about it next time they come up with some cockamamie invasion scheme.


IN THE FIELD | THIRD INFANTRY DIVISION
Anxious and Weary of War, G.I.'s Face a New Iraq Mission
By STEVEN LEE MYERS



[much drivel deleted]

Did you honestly think reconstruction and putting a new stable goverment would happen in less than a couple months?
 

UltraQuiet

Banned
Sep 22, 2001
5,755
0
0
The point BOBDN is trying to make is that this war is wrong, unjustified and never should have happened.
That's your opinion. Thankfully it doesn't mean much.

There are no weapons of mass destruction, no links to al qaeda,
Prove it.

the people dont want us there never asked us to come in the first place;
Some do and some don't but to say "the people don't want us there" is certainly inaccurate.

the rest of the world resents us
Some of the world resents us and always has. We shouldn't really care and it should never stop us from doing what needs to be done.

and not only that but the Soldiers want to come back.
They didn't really want to go to begin with and they always b!tch about coming back. If deployments were driven by the moaning and bitching of the junior enlisted/officers nobody would ever go anywhere. Well, except maybe Thailand.

Real men and women from the US and Iraq died because of a lie by our great leader.
Yes they did, that's what happens in war. When you can prove the lie, then we'll have an issue.
 

AnImuS

Senior member
Sep 28, 2001
939
0
0
coming as an independant and seeing your post on these forums if you want people to take you seriously when you post and not just being an idiot by proposing propaganda all over this forum.. First it was Repubs now its democrats.. And quite frankly they make you look stupid because your posting your message on ignorance...

thats all :D
 

UltraQuiet

Banned
Sep 22, 2001
5,755
0
0
Originally posted by: AnImuS
coming as an independant and seeing your post on these forums if you want people to take you seriously when you post and not just being an idiot by proposing propaganda all over this forum.. First it was Repubs now its democrats.. And quite frankly they make you look stupid because your posting your message on ignorance...

thats all :D


Maybe you should try this again in coherent English. You can start by saying who it is you're talking to.
 

Tripleshot

Elite Member
Jan 29, 2000
7,218
1
0
It sounds as if these soldiers are echoing the same frustration we are, waiting for some sign of success. The only thing that has happened is we have apparently removed Saddam from power, liberating many oppressed Iraqis, and that is about it. We need to rebuild what has been destroyed of the enfostructure,and oversee the election of a democratic government that can organize services and law and order in this country. I wonder why no one ever mentions any activity about this anymore? All we here in Afghanistan and now Iraq is squirmishes and raids, and at least 1 US GI killed every day by hostile fire.

We need to get on the stick with this, but instead, word is out for contractors and laborers to go and exploit the oil fields that are in jeapordy. Nothing in the labor pool is calling for structural engineers,electricians, water purification experts, plumbers, linemen, road maintenace, carpenters etc.

That is because Rumsfeld and this administration have no exit strategy whatsoever. You can damn well bank on it, if they did, you would hear about it.

Vote this adminstration out in 2004. Vote in someone who can do something other then blow things up and destroy an economy as this one has.
 

Dari

Lifer
Oct 25, 2002
17,134
38
91
No one. NO ONE said this was going to be easy. I'm glad BOBDN understood that when Bush and other members of his administration said it countless times.
 

Bowfinger

Lifer
Nov 17, 2002
15,776
392
126
Wow. Way to go, BOBDN. Looks like you stirred up the few remaining Bush apologists, got them all to converge on this one thread. I haven't seen this much name-calling and bluster in weeks.

I am surprised that these hawks are so unsupportive of our troops. It must be some sort of Orwellian newspeak: "supporting our troops" means sending them into harm's way; "not supporting our troops" means being concerned about their welfare and safety. War is peace.

Face it guys. Bush-lite sent these boys out to die on a lie. Rumsfeld overruled his generals and refused to put sufficient troops on the ground. Now we're paying the price. We're losing fathers, sons, and brothers every day because Bush & Co created a mess without a viable exit strategy. It didn't have to be this way.
 

Bowfinger

Lifer
Nov 17, 2002
15,776
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Originally posted by: Dari
you're full of it. You post was just another lame attempt to lambast Bush and his administration. In my opinion, this war was just and long overdue. Perhaps, if clinton had taken care of this problem, we wouldn't be in most of this mess.
Yeah, and perhaps if Bush Sr. had taken care of it, we wouldn't be in this mess and we have a million more living Iraqis. Or maybe both Clinton and poppa Bush recognized that it's not legitimate to invade another country just because we don't like its leader. Or maybe Clinton and poppa Bush didn't need a war to distract us from their incompetence. Or maybe Bush-lite could have been patient -- just as he's telling us to be now -- and waited for the U.N. inspectors to do their jobs.

You can what-if 'til the cows come home, but that doesn't change the fact that Bush-lite got us into this "mess".

Furthermore, military planners and political leaders planned to the best of their abilities.
No, they didn't. Rumsfeld overruled them. Long before the war started, Time magazine ran a long article showing how Rumsfeld was micro-managing the Pentagon.

Furthermore, you can't criticize the war-planners without either having a better plan yourself or risk being called a hypocrite.
Sure we can. It's in the First Amendment. Look it up. In any case, I had a better plan -- stay out of Iraq. Continue the containment policies that were obviously working quite well.

 

CaptnKirk

Lifer
Jul 25, 2002
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How many Generals did Rumsfield dump ? At least 2 (that we know of) and after the fact - it has been proven
that the Generals knew exactly what they were talking about - Military Experience, you know, but the
all-knowing smart ass Rumsfeld, with his years of NO EXPERIENCE got his way by firing those who
knew what war and military intervention was all about but had the audacity to disagree with his Toadship..

I expect that in the years ahead when the legacy of the Bush Administration is written, and the
'Sealed for history' documentation is validated, our decendants will have proof of it being the most
incompetent, egotistical, and worst presidential administration in the history of the United States.
 

burnedout

Diamond Member
Oct 12, 1999
6,249
2
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Originally posted by: Bowfinger
Wow. Way to go, BOBDN. Looks like you stirred up the few remaining Bush apologists, got them all to converge on this one thread. I haven't seen this much name-calling and bluster in weeks.

I am surprised that these hawks are so unsupportive of our troops. It must be some sort of Orwellian newspeak: "supporting our troops" means sending them into harm's way; "not supporting our troops" means being concerned about their welfare and safety. War is peace.

Face it guys. Bush-lite sent these boys out to die on a lie. Rumsfeld overruled his generals and refused to put sufficient troops on the ground. Now we're paying the price. We're losing fathers, sons, and brothers every day because Bush & Co created a mess without a viable exit strategy. It didn't have to be this way.
How conveniently we forget about such interesting, exotic locations as
Bosnia-Herzogovina or the fact that we have been there since 1995. Yep, ole Dubya got us into that one too, right?

Or how about

Kosovo? Damn that Dubya for gettin' us in there in 1999! Nevermind if the troops there would like to come home either. Hey Bowfinger, did you know you can get frostbite in Macedonia? I'll gladly tell you all about the place from a GI's perspective under Slick Willie, if you are interested.
 

mastertech01

Moderator Emeritus Elite Member
Nov 13, 1999
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I was still in the military when we went over to Bosnia, and distinctly remember the President stating a 6 month deployment was planned. I guess exit strategy changes once the ballon goes up. No?
 

Bowfinger

Lifer
Nov 17, 2002
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Originally posted by: Ultra Quiet
The point BOBDN is trying to make is that this war is wrong, unjustified and never should have happened.
That's your opinion. Thankfully it doesn't mean much.
There are no weapons of mass destruction, no links to al qaeda,
Prove it.
the people dont want us there never asked us to come in the first place;
Some do and some don't but to say "the people don't want us there" is certainly inaccurate.
the rest of the world resents us
Some of the world resents us and always has. We shouldn't really care and it should never stop us from doing what needs to be done.
and not only that but the Soldiers want to come back.
They didn't really want to go to begin with and they always b!tch about coming back. If deployments were driven by the moaning and bitching of the junior enlisted/officers nobody would ever go anywhere. Well, except maybe Thailand.
Real men and women from the US and Iraq died because of a lie by our great leader.
Yes they did, that's what happens in war. When you can prove the lie, then we'll have an issue.
There you go again. At least you're predictable. Let's run down your list of digs and distortions:

(UQ)That's your opinion. Thankfully it doesn't mean much.
It means just as much as yours.

(sMiLeYz)There are no weapons of mass destruction, no links to al qaeda -- (UQ)Prove it.
We don't have to prove anything. We didn't start a war by making unsupported claims.

(UQ)Some do and some don't but to say "the people don't want us there" is certainly inaccurate.
Prove it. Oops, I meant, the proportion of people who want us there is speculation. sMiLeYz's statement is a reasonable assessment of what we've seen; it is as accurate as many of your claims.

(UQ)Some of the world resents us and always has. We shouldn't really care and it should never stop us from doing what needs to be done.
Speaking of accuracy, here's a case in point. It is undeniable that most of the world was opposed to our invasion of Iraq. It is equally undeniable that the level of resentment towards the U.S. has skyrocketed since Bush-lite saddled up. He has been a complete disaster to our image in the world.

(UQ)They didn't really want to go to begin with and they always b!tch about coming back. If deployments were driven by the moaning and bitching of the junior enlisted/officers nobody would ever go anywhere. Well, except maybe Thailand.
Not always true. In WWII, for example, many young men were eager to go to war, even lying about their age so they could serve. Why? Because our cause was right and noble and just. We had real bad guys who were invading other countries, and we were gallantly rushing to their defense. Having a just cause makes all the difference in the world. As far as I can remember, the only similar war since then was the first Gulf War, when Iraq invaded Kuwait. I wonder how the "moaning and bitching" then compared to now.

(sMiLeYz)Real men and women from the US and Iraq died because of a lie by our great leader. - (UQ)Yes they did, that's what happens in war. When you can prove the lie, then we'll have an issue.
Really?!?! You agree that our troops "died because of a lie by our great leader"? Enlightenment at last!

OK, probably not.

The fact is that these men and women did not have to die. They were put in harm's way based on lies. You can quibble all you want about whether Bush knew he was lying, or whether he was an incompetent dupe, but either way, these people died for a lie.

As far as proving the lie, we don't have to. This isn't a court of law. This is the court of public opinion, where verdicts are rendered based on the persuasiveness of the evidence. The evidence is overwhelming, and it keeps getting worse. Bush killed almost two hundred Americans, and killed and maimed thousands of Iraqi's based on false claims. More Americans (and Iraqis) are dying every day. Sooner or later, Bush will have to account for this deception.





 

Bowfinger

Lifer
Nov 17, 2002
15,776
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Originally posted by: burnedout
How conveniently we forget about such interesting, exotic locations as
Bosnia-Herzogovina or the fact that we have been there since 1995. Yep, ole Dubya got us into that one too, right?

Or how about

Kosovo? Damn that Dubya for gettin' us in there in 1999! Nevermind if the troops there would like to come home either. Hey Bowfinger, did you know you can get frostbite in Macedonia? I'll gladly tell you all about the place from a GI's perspective under Slick Willie, if you are interested.
Do you have a point?

Please show me where I said anything about Bosnia or Kosovo, or anything suggesting Clinton was better than Bush concerning invasions or exit strategies or whatever irrelevant parallel you're trying to draw. I'm a firm beliver in two wrongs don't make a right, so if Clinton did bad in this context, shame on him. It has nothing to do with Bush-lite and Rumsfeld and the big lie, however.

Since you brought it up, how many Americans are still dying in Bosnia and Kosovo each day? How many other nations have troops on the ground with us? What lies were used to get us into those two regions? Inquiring minds want to know.




 

AnImuS

Senior member
Sep 28, 2001
939
0
0
Originally posted by: Ultra Quiet
Originally posted by: AnImuS
coming as an independant and seeing your post on these forums if you want people to take you seriously when you post and not just being an idiot by proposing propaganda all over this forum.. First it was Repubs now its democrats.. And quite frankly they make you look stupid because your posting your message on ignorance...

thats all :D


Maybe you should try this again in coherent English. You can start by saying who it is you're talking to.


My english is fine maybe yours is the problem... My statement applies to everyone who fits the above description.. you know who you are.
 

burnedout

Diamond Member
Oct 12, 1999
6,249
2
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Originally posted by: Bowfinger
Originally posted by: burnedout
How conveniently we forget about such interesting, exotic locations as
Bosnia-Herzogovina or the fact that we have been there since 1995. Yep, ole Dubya got us into that one too, right?

Or how about

Kosovo? Damn that Dubya for gettin' us in there in 1999! Nevermind if the troops there would like to come home either. Hey Bowfinger, did you know you can get frostbite in Macedonia? I'll gladly tell you all about the place from a GI's perspective under Slick Willie, if you are interested.

Do you have a point?

Yes, one hell of a point.

Please show me where I said anything about Bosnia or Kosovo, or anything suggesting Clinton was better than Bush concerning invasions or exit strategies or whatever irrelevant parallel you're trying to draw. I'm a firm beliver in two wrongs don't make a right, so if Clinton did bad in this context, shame on him. It has nothing to do with Bush-lite and Rumsfeld and the big lie, however.
The so-called "big lie" has not yet been conclusively proven or disproven. When the time comes, we'll talk about it. Until then, it remains conjecture.

Since you brought it up, how many Americans are still dying in Bosnia and Kosovo each day? How many other nations have troops on the ground with us? What lies were used to get us into those two regions? Inquiring minds want to know.
No Americans die in either Bosnia or Kosovo each day. We have been at both locations longer than 11 weeks and some form of order has been established. And by the way, who has conclusively proven that there were lies used getting us into Iraq?

Next, you state: "We're losing fathers, sons, and brothers every day because Bush & Co created a mess without a viable exit strategy. It didn't have to be this way." Neither should Bosnia-Herzogovina "have to be this way"...........for 8 straight years.

Additionally, if one looks on the USEUCOM website, the so-called "exit strategy" is laid out in black and white. Simply put, there is none. Face it, all U.S. Presidents, with the exception of old lamer Jimmy, have employed U.S. forces, in one capacity or another, in operations outside the United States since the days of FDR. Whether each action was fully justified is another matter of discussion.