Anti-semitism on the rise..? Comments by liberal congress woman, calls for apology from fellow Democrats.

Page 7 - Seeking answers? Join the AnandTech community: where nearly half-a-million members share solutions and discuss the latest tech.

Vic

Elite Member
Jun 12, 2001
50,422
14,336
136
The features are similar. The Israelis just aren't actually starving the Gazans, but they'll gladly cut it close.
We just have to accept that any speech that criticizes a government policy that imprisons children in a concentration camp for life and without any due process for committing no crime, other than being born Palestinian, is racist...
 
  • Like
Reactions: DarthKyrie

realibrad

Lifer
Oct 18, 2013
12,337
898
126
They said the Mexican immigrants were taking our jobs, not that they are undesirable because they just don't like Mexicans. There is a profound difference.

We don't get to reject the idea of inferring bigotry from context and word choice. Not the left. Sorry.

Its weird to me the word games. I don't get why Jews are different. Thugs is a stealth way of referring to black people, but, when it comes to Jews its always totally different.
 

fskimospy

Elite Member
Mar 10, 2006
85,642
50,876
136
They said the Mexican immigrants were taking our jobs, not that they are undesirable because they just don't like Mexicans. There is a profound difference.

We don't get to reject the idea of inferring bigotry from context and word choice. Not the left. Sorry.

'They said I think Mexico's government is bad, therefore I assumed they were bigoted against Hispanics'.

Sorry, doesn't fly.
 

fskimospy

Elite Member
Mar 10, 2006
85,642
50,876
136
Its weird to me the word games. I don't get why Jews are different. Thugs is a stealth way of referring to black people, but, when it comes to Jews its always totally different.

Help me out here then. I know of tons of ways to refer to black people without using the word 'thugs'. I would like to refer to the state of Israel, how can I do so without meaning 'Jews'? Please be specific.

EDIT: Also, you realize you're the one playing word games here, right? Insisting that referring to a country and government means 'Jews'.
 
  • Like
Reactions: darkswordsman17

realibrad

Lifer
Oct 18, 2013
12,337
898
126
Help me out here then. I know of tons of ways to refer to black people without using the word 'thugs'. I would like to refer to the state of Israel, how can I do so without meaning 'Jews'? Please be specific.

You can't. Its like asking how you can refer to a state that has a strong racial and ethnic identity. Hell, it does not even need to be a state. If someone were to go on about how much they hate the beliefs of Islam, and how bad the religion is, you would decry that person as a racist person. That is because Islam is not just associated with a set of beliefs.
 

fskimospy

Elite Member
Mar 10, 2006
85,642
50,876
136
You can't. Its like asking how you can refer to a state that has a strong racial and ethnic identity. Hell, it does not even need to be a state. If someone were to go on about how much they hate the beliefs of Islam, and how bad the religion is, you would decry that person as a racist person. That is because Islam is not just associated with a set of beliefs.

This makes so little sense as to be incoherent. The fact that your logic is dumb should be immediately obvious to you when it boils down to you declaring I cannot criticize a government without criticizing a religious and ethnic group as well, even when it is my explicit intent not to.

If I say 'I dislike what Israel is doing' you're saying that means 'I dislike what Jews are doing?' What about American Jews, which are actually more populous than those in Israel? Do I dislike them too? If not, why? After all, I'm criticizing Jews by criticizing Israeli policies. If I am criticizing them as well why would it hold that I am criticizing people for Israeli policy who have no control over it? Seems awfully mean of me.

Same holds true for Islam. If I criticize Iran or Saudi Arabia by your logic I am criticizing Muslims. As per your logic that in that case I am criticizing all Muslims, meaning I am attacking Indonesia by going after Saudi Arabia.

Take a step back and think about how logically absurd your position is. After doing that, do you wish to revise your declaration that you cannot criticize the state of Israel without criticizing Jews as a racial and ethnic group?
 

Moonbeam

Elite Member
Nov 24, 1999
73,286
6,351
126
Take a step back and think about how logically absurd your position is. After doing that, do you wish to revise your declaration that you cannot criticize the state of Israel without criticizing Jews as a racial and ethnic group?
I certainly hope you are right because I have often been critical of the right wing that normally has power in Israel. And also, while my criticism is from afar and probably rather uninformed, I believe that the most powerful and dedicated critics of Israel are actually Jews themselves.
 

woolfe9998

Lifer
Apr 8, 2013
16,189
14,114
136
'They said I think Mexico's government is bad, therefore I assumed they were bigoted against Hispanics'.

Sorry, doesn't fly.


Your version doesn't track the story we're discussing.

If we want to perfect the analogy, they said the country of Mexico was "dirty, lazy, criminal" or [insert common racist trope here].

This Congresswoman said Israel was hypnotizing the world. That is a very specific accusation made by anti-semites against Jews. She didn't say, "the Israeli government has done some bad things." I'm sure that not knowing about the Jews' history of being accused of beguiling gentiles into doing their dirty work was just an innocent mistake. And I'm sure we can extend this benefit of the doubt to those on the right who use racist tropes, right? Because that's what we do all the time...
 
Last edited:

woolfe9998

Lifer
Apr 8, 2013
16,189
14,114
136
You can't. Its like asking how you can refer to a state that has a strong racial and ethnic identity. Hell, it does not even need to be a state. If someone were to go on about how much they hate the beliefs of Islam, and how bad the religion is, you would decry that person as a racist person. That is because Islam is not just associated with a set of beliefs.

No, Israel is not the same thing as Jews. The problem is not that criticizing Israel means criticizing Jews. The problem is the Congresswoman's use of anti-Semitic tropes in doing so.
 

fskimospy

Elite Member
Mar 10, 2006
85,642
50,876
136
Your version doesn't track the story we're discussing.

If we want to perfect the analogy, they said the country of Mexico was "dirty, lazy, criminal" or [insert common racist trope here].

This Congresswoman said Israel was hypnotizing the world. She didn't say, "the Israeli government has done some bad things." I'm sure that not knowing about the Jews' history of being accused of beguiling gentiles into doing their dirty work was just an innocent mistake. And I'm sure we can extend this benefit of the doubt to those on the right who use racist tropes, right? Because that's what we do all the time...

To be clear I’m not arguing over whether or not this woman is personally an anti-semite or whether or not she’s simply unwittingly repeating those sort of slurs. I am fully willing to believe one or both of those things.

I was taking issue with realibrad once again saying that the two terms are interchangeable and they are simply not. If she was saying Israel (wink wink Jews) I accept that and she should be absolutely shunned for it.
 
  • Like
Reactions: darkswordsman17

woolfe9998

Lifer
Apr 8, 2013
16,189
14,114
136
To be clear I’m not arguing over whether or not this woman is personally an anti-semite or whether or not she’s simply unwittingly repeating those sort of slurs. I am fully willing to believe one or both of those things.

I was taking issue with realibrad once again saying that the two terms are interchangeable and they are simply not. If she was saying Israel (wink wink Jews) I accept that and she should be absolutely shunned for it.

Brad has his own ideas about things.

MY point is that you can't just say, "she said Israel, not Jews" and that is the end of the matter because that doesn't fly when coming from the other camp. When Ron DeSantis said "don't monkey this up by voting for Gillum" people on the right were right up there saying, "but he didn't say black people were monkeys or even that Gillum was a monkey!" And how were those explanations received on the left?

If all you're doing here is going after Brad's cockeyed belief that criticizing Israel is automatically anti-Semitic then have at it I guess. It's rather like shooting fish in a barrel while there are more serious arguments being made.
 

Blackjack200

Lifer
May 28, 2007
15,995
1,686
126
Brad has his own ideas about things.

MY point is that you can't just say, "she said Israel, not Jews" and that is the end of the matter because that doesn't fly when coming from the other camp. When Ron DeSantis said "don't monkey this up by voting for Gillum" people on the right were right up there saying, "but he didn't say black people were monkeys or even that Gillum was a monkey!" And how were those explanations received on the left?

If all you're doing here is going after Brad's cockeyed belief that criticizing Israel is automatically anti-Semitic then have at it I guess. It's rather like shooting fish in a barrel while there are more serious arguments being made.

So we’re back to the original question, if talking about Israeli influence over our government is an anti-Semetic trope, what is the correct way to criticize AIPAC and the rest of the Israeli lobby as we criticize the influence of the NRA, fossil fuel lobby, etc.? Are you suggesting that it’s simply impossible to do so without being anti-Semitic?
 

woolfe9998

Lifer
Apr 8, 2013
16,189
14,114
136
So we’re back to the original question, if talking about Israeli influence over our government is an anti-Semetic trope, what is the correct way to criticize AIPAC and the rest of the Israeli lobby as we criticize the influence of the NRA, fossil fuel lobby, etc.? Are you suggesting that it’s simply impossible to do so without being anti-Semitic?

I bet a lot of people on the right are wondering how they can express concern over jobs lost to illegal immigrants without sounding racist. Welcome to the modern world. I didn't invent it. If we're going to jump on statements made by conservatives and label them a racist dog whistle, then that same standard applies to the left. If it all seems rather stifling, I'm sure you can figure out how to live with it. And live with it we must if we want to be consistent.

In regard to this particular issue, I would suggest, at a minimum, not saying that Israel is "hypnotizing the world." Like I said to another poster earlier, that kind of allegation is like blackface for Jews. So you might try avoiding the most painfully obvious anti-semitic tropes. That would be the low hanging fruit here.
 

Viper1j

Diamond Member
Jul 31, 2018
4,264
3,840
136
An admin here also told me, "whites cannot be a victim of racism in this country." so... understand what you're dealing with.

If a 12 year old offers you sex, and you do it, is she (or he) a victim of abuse?

Your answer may tell more than you want.
 

Jhhnn

IN MEMORIAM
Nov 11, 1999
62,365
14,681
136
I bet a lot of people on the right are wondering how they can express concern over jobs lost to illegal immigrants without sounding racist. Welcome to the modern world. I didn't invent it. If we're going to jump on statements made by conservatives and label them a racist dog whistle, then that same standard applies to the left. If it all seems rather stifling, I'm sure you can figure out how to live with it. And live with it we must if we want to be consistent.

In regard to this particular issue, I would suggest, at a minimum, not saying that Israel is "hypnotizing the world." Like I said to another poster earlier, that kind of allegation is like blackface for Jews. So you might try avoiding the most painfully obvious anti-semitic tropes. That would be the low hanging fruit here.

What would you call it, then, when America abandons principle in favor of sentiment for Jewish people in general and extends that to the State of Israel? We enable the previously persecuted to become the persecutors. They treat the Pals like shit. They don't treat arab Israelis much better. They've bombed their neighbors & taken or occupied their territories off & on since the beginning. And they renounce none of that. They've even convinced a lot of Americans that it's right for them to do so.

Be prepared to receive the Jew-hater tarbrush for saying any of that.
 

HomerJS

Lifer
Feb 6, 2002
36,735
28,908
136
But it is her own fucking words. You are trying to pretend because Fox did a story that invalidates the things she said. She did sympathize with these ISIS wannabes, this is a FACT. She has posted things that can be considered anti-Semitic as well. This isn't about Fox, this is about what she's said.
Since when do you take the words of politicians literally? Hypocrite.

After all it was a joke, colorful hyperbole and any other bullshit excuses that can be recycled.
 

alcoholbob

Diamond Member
May 24, 2005
6,308
355
126
I like how so many Republican politicians who have actually said anti-semetic stuff then conflate Omar's criticism of Israel with anti-semitism.

It's almost as if Republicans are trying to redefine anti-Semitism as criticizing Israel and think being actually racist against Jews is fine lol.
 
Nov 25, 2013
32,083
11,718
136

MooseNSquirrel

Platinum Member
Feb 26, 2009
2,587
318
126
But it is her own fucking words. You are trying to pretend because Fox did a story that invalidates the things she said. She did sympathize with these ISIS wannabes, this is a FACT. She has posted things that can be considered anti-Semitic as well. This isn't about Fox, this is about what she's said.
Screw that. A race baiting news organisation that pushes a white christian agenda deserves zero credibility for news articles about muslims that paint them in a negative light.

None. Also, you are lying about intent, just like Fox. Stupid bigot.
 

DarthKyrie

Golden Member
Jul 11, 2016
1,545
1,305
146
The fact that criticism of Israel’s Gaza policy is considered anti-Semitic is both deeply sad and deeply ironic.

Yeh, I suppose Gaza is more like the Warsaw Ghetto than a concentration camp.
If I have the right to criticize the State of Israel I have the right to criticize those who use their power & influence to advance the cause of that govt in American politics.

The features are similar. The Israelis just aren't actually starving the Gazans, but they'll gladly cut it close.

fski, Jhhnn answered you before I could. Gaza also has the same treatment that the SS showed the Jews with the occasion sweep thru to kill the ones not fast enough to run away.
 

zinfamous

No Lifer
Jul 12, 2006
111,136
30,086
146
Mind explaining how, or, were you just trying to signal to everyone?

trying to signal to everyone? wtf are you talking about? This isn't some god damn conspiracy against you. Stop being insane.

You tried to compare a specific attack against people (Trump calling countries shitholes because of the people that live there) to this attack against a country's very specific, very unpopular policies--essentially a criminal apartheid state. You then eventually admitted this difference (in the very post that I responded to), before feigning ignorance about why you should be confused--hence my comment. Nothing more.

It's fucking insane.
 

woolfe9998

Lifer
Apr 8, 2013
16,189
14,114
136
fski, Jhhnn answered you before I could. Gaza also has the same treatment that the SS showed the Jews with the occasion sweep thru to kill the ones not fast enough to run away.

You guys don't know jack about about Holocaust history.

Jhhhn's argument is literally well gee, they aren't killing them but in my opinion they almost are, and that's practically the same thing. Ask a person who was "almost" killed if he thinks it's a matter of indifference, or a mere technicality, or hair splitting, that he is actually alive rather than dead.

It's a colossally stupid argument.
 

Moonbeam

Elite Member
Nov 24, 1999
73,286
6,351
126
I bet a lot of people on the right are wondering how they can express concern over jobs lost to illegal immigrants without sounding racist. Welcome to the modern world. I didn't invent it. If we're going to jump on statements made by conservatives and label them a racist dog whistle, then that same standard applies to the left. If it all seems rather stifling, I'm sure you can figure out how to live with it. And live with it we must if we want to be consistent.

In regard to this particular issue, I would suggest, at a minimum, not saying that Israel is "hypnotizing the world." Like I said to another poster earlier, that kind of allegation is like blackface for Jews. So you might try avoiding the most painfully obvious anti-semitic tropes. That would be the low hanging fruit here.

I see two potential problems here. What do we do if the government of Israel is trying to hypnotize the world. Also, I have observed personally that anybody who thinks, see, or claims things that I don't agree with are obviously wrong and the only way to account for that fact is because they have been brain washed some how. I would think, then, that from a Jewish exclusive point of view, what with all the historical contempt they have been subjected to, it might be a charge they are rather familiar with but mistakenly think it is unique to them. But for a person like myself, who is more catholic in my contempt, the brainwashed come in every stripe and may have missed your trope ownership.