Anti-gravity propulsion - it is not a SF anymore... BOEING is working on it.. Discussion welcome!

[adlep]

Some interesting reading from Janes Defence Weekly...
and if they are mentioning that, this is serious, not a joke..
read here

Here is another interesting read, deals with some original experiments
some extra insight

We are living in interesting times.....

Your feedback is highly welcome!

 

[CSFM]

Isn't fuel-less or 'free energy' already here? The wind power that the Germans have should be taken into consideration. Solar power is also quite established in Australian home hotwater services. These things and many more are there for all to use... but local Government bylaws and red tape seem to be stopping the average punter from taking the challenge on at a local level.

Granted though... if this were true and (I am not saying it isn't) then why wouldn't NASA be making the newest NIKE shoes with Anti-gravity technology for some overpaid basketball player... and then telling the world to by them while enslaving another 3rd world country...

2c... ching ching

CSFM

 

[adlep]

the anti-gravity would be much more efficient way of getting the energy than the solar panels though!

 

[Evadman]

I remember reading up on this about a year ago when it was first released. 2% is nothing to us, but is a huge difference to science. if I remember cororectly, thedevice did not reduce gravity, it "warped" it around the device so that things sround the device would be 2% heavier.

 

[adlep]

Actually, the anti-gravity device, once proven succesfull will make a huge diffrience....
in the article, janes is talking about a possible, terrible weapon perspective which would make tanks obsolete....
Its better than a laser guns...
There could be also an ati-gravity shelds possible, just like in star wars movies.....

 

[pm]

It's definitely not a joke, but that doesn't mean that it's true either. We will see when they complete their experiments. I have yet to see a credible third-party report scientifically validate Podkletnov?s claims.

Because NASA lacked Podkletnov?s unique formula for the work, the attempt failed. NASA?s Marshall Space Flight Center in Alabama will shortly conduct a second set of experiments using apparatus built to Podkletnov?s specifications.

This statement alone should indicate how unlikely it is that Podkletnov's claims are true. The whole saga sounds a lot like the "cold fusion" claims. Whenever anyone would replicate the experiment and not find the results expected by Pons and Fleischmann they would claim that it was that the researchers hadn't followed the correct procedure.

When high-temperature superconductivity above 90K was found by Chu's team in 1987, many in the physics community didn't believe this was possible. It violated the physical explanation for superconductivity at the time. But very quickly reports came in from all over the world as many teams replicated the results. One sign of something that is too good to be true is when every team who tries to replicate the results can't because they can't get the apparatus set up exactly like it was in the original experiment.

In this case, I don't believe that Boeing has high hopes that Podkletnov?s results will be validated. But in this case, the cost of the experimental apparatus is very low, and the upside for practical applications is very high. So Boeing is taking a risk, but all they are risking is a relatively small amount of money and a certain amount of reputation.

 

[rgwalt]

Well, if this could be used as a drive for a space craft, and it could pull a constant 1G outside of the pull of the earth, a trip to alpha centarie would take 13 years, one way. You can't make that kind of trip if you have to bring chemical propellant with you. However, if you had a nuke reactor aboard powering your gravity drive, then you are set.

Ryan

 

[rbhawcroft]

Originally posted by: pm
It's definitely not a joke, but that doesn't mean that it's true either. We will see when they complete their experiments. I have yet to see a credible third-party report scientifically validate Podkletnov?s claims.

Because NASA lacked Podkletnov?s unique formula for the work, the attempt failed. NASA?s Marshall Space Flight Center in Alabama will shortly conduct a second set of experiments using apparatus built to Podkletnov?s specifications.

This statement alone should indicate how unlikely it is that Podkletnov's claims are true. The whole saga sounds a lot like the "cold fusion" claims. Whenever anyone would replicate the experiment and not find the results expected by Pons and Fleischmann they would claim that it was that the researchers hadn't followed the correct procedure. When high-temperature superconductivity above 90K was found by Chu's team in 1987, many in the physics community didn't believe this was possible. It violated the physical explanation for superconductivity at the time. But very quickly reports came in from all over the world as many teams replicated the results. One sign of something that is too good to be true is when every team who tries to replicate the results can't because they can't get the apparatus set up exactly like it was in the original experiment.In this case, I don't believe that Boeing has high hopes that Podkletnov?s results will be validated. But in this case, the cost of the experimental apparatus is very low, and the upside for practical applications is very high. So Boeing is taking a risk, but all they are risking is a relatively small amount of money and a certain amount of reputation.

come pm, everyone one knows that science gets turned on its head regularly, and if an outsider comes up with it they deny it unless they can immediately replicate the results. There are still plenty of scientists who think that plasma ring reactors are more likely to be available than ZPE energy sources.
also if it turns out to be nothing I dont think boeing are risking any reputational pride, its a blind punt, and thats as much as they expect it to be, period, so if it works very well, and if it doesnt then perhaps some other backing will.
I know intel has a venture capital division and unlike cisco they have backed uncertain products big time, for example a uk company that has a terabit RF data signaller for LAN applications, despite the market not being that clear.

 

[pm]

First of all, I'm not saying that this whole effect is garbage. I'm just highly skeptical.

come pm, everyone one knows that science gets turned on its head regularly, and if an outsider comes up with it they deny it unless they can immediately replicate the results. There are still plenty of scientists who think that plasma ring reactors are more likely to be available than ZPE energy sources.

Immediate results? People have been trying to replicate this experiment since 1992 - that's a decade worth of research and no one credible can replicate the results in a repeatable, sustainable, measureable manner. There have been numerous high profile research teams that have tried this experiment and failed, including the very famous attempt by the NASA team.

Unlike Podkletnov?s experiment, there have been several experiments that have had repeatable, demonstrable results that are best explained with the theory of ZPE (ie. the Casmir effect). I'm not completely convinced that ZPE exists either, but I do agree that it is the best theory to explain certain experiments. As far as plasma fusion using a Tokamak ring - this is an engineering problem, IMO, not a physics problem. It's not a question of whether or not the science works, it does, but how difficult it is to build it and whether it would be cost effective if we could.

also if it turns out to be nothing I dont think boeing are risking any reputational pride, its a blind punt, and thats as much as they expect it to be, period, so if it works very well, and if it doesnt then perhaps some other backing will.

I don't think they are risking a lot in the way of reputation, but I do think that there are a few scientists and others out there that are snickering over the fact that Boeing is even bothering with this.

I know intel has a venture capital division and unlike cisco they have backed uncertain products big time, for example a uk company that has a terabit RF data signaller for LAN applications, despite the market not being that clear.

There is, in my mind, a substantial difference between developing products that may or may not be successful, and spending R&D money on researching an effect that probably doesn't exist. Market's change, but the laws of the universe are (probably) constant. Something that may not sell well today, could be a success tomorrow. But putting together a team to study whether you can move things by mental telepathy is almost certainly not going to produce any better results than the last dozen times that people tried to demonstrate this.

Still, my primary point is not that this is a waste of Boeing's time - although I think that it is. But that the fact that Boeing is performing the experiment should not be used as a reason to indicate that it is a demonstrably true phenomena. IOW, I disagree with the title, "it's not SF anymore".

 

[CTho9305]

dont you mean Casimir effect?
this appears to explain the casimir effect in a way sounds plausible

 

[pm]

Dont you mean Casimir effect?

So, ok, I missed an "i". I almost put an "sp?" next to it. But at least you knew what I meant.

 

[CTho9305]

Originally posted by: pm

Dont you mean Casimir effect?

So, ok, I missed an "i". I almost put an "sp?" next to it. But at least you knew what I meant.

not really... i googled your typo, and google figured out what you meant

 

[adlep]

Thats the way it is in science... do you remeber Galileo and Copernicus (Kopernik)
they almost died because of their claims....
heh
I really would like to see this project to work out... it would be so nice to make trips to neighbouring stars (spelling?)..
Even the fact that they are looking into project like that is higly optimistic, because there might be a chance of replicating the results....
I would hope though that its not going to be use a a some new kind of weapon....

 

[rbhawcroft]

Originally posted by: pm
First of all, I'm not saying that this whole effect is garbage. I'm just highly skeptical.

come pm, everyone one knows that science gets turned on its head regularly, and if an outsider comes up with it they deny it unless they can immediately replicate the results. There are still plenty of scientists who think that plasma ring reactors are more likely to be available than ZPE energy sources.

Immediate results? People have been trying to replicate this experiment since 1992 - that's a decade worth of research and no one credible can replicate the results in a repeatable, sustainable, measureable manner. There have been numerous high profile research teams that have tried this experiment and failed, including the very famous attempt by the NASA team. Unlike Podkletnov?s experiment, there have been several experiments that have had repeatable, demonstrable results that are best explained with the theory of ZPE (ie. the Casmir effect). I'm not completely convinced that ZPE exists either, but I do agree that it is the best theory to explain certain experiments. As far as plasma fusion using a Tokamak ring - this is an engineering problem, IMO, not a physics problem. It's not a question of whether or not the science works, it does, but how difficult it is to build it and whether it would be cost effective if we could.

also if it turns out to be nothing I dont think boeing are risking any reputational pride, its a blind punt, and thats as much as they expect it to be, period, so if it works very well, and if it doesnt then perhaps some other backing will.

I don't think they are risking a lot in the way of reputation, but I do think that there are a few scientists and others out there that are snickering over the fact that Boeing is even bothering with this.

I know intel has a venture capital division and unlike cisco they have backed uncertain products big time, for example a uk company that has a terabit RF data signaller for LAN applications, despite the market not being that clear.

There is, in my mind, a substantial difference between developing products that may or may not be successful, and spending R&D money on researching an effect that probably doesn't exist. Market's change, but the laws of the universe are (probably) constant. Something that may not sell well today, could be a success tomorrow. But putting together a team to study whether you can move things by mental telepathy is almost certainly not going to produce any better results than the last dozen times that people tried to demonstrate this.Still, my primary point is not that this is a waste of Boeing's time - although I think that it is. But that the fact that Boeing is performing the experiment should not be used as a reason to indicate that it is a demonstrably true phenomena. IOW, I disagree with the title, "it's not SF anymore".

i doubt the amount boeing is spendingis very big for them, however original research is inherently risky,only about half of what is actually discovered that is useful is discovered by targetted research, as opposed to general enquiry. I dont think the downside is big ion this but the upside could be huge.
As far as snickering scientists go, they can just go back to an*lising eachother in the storeroom.
The first ZPE experiment that I am aware of is one in russia before the WW1, which resulted in an energy dischrage that burnt the lab down.
Also in terms of business products, only a minority of VC backed products make it, and that discounts the angel backed startups that dont even make it to the VC's table, so yes this is probably a waste, but also probably a worth it one.

In terms of plasma fusion, I dont see how they can contain plasma like that just with magnetic fields, in those conditions, and also get economically useable heat energy from it. For a start if the plasma was in a vacum how would the heat be transmitted? There arent any electrons to emit EMS energy.

 

[rbhawcroft]

i just thought it could be used for gas turbine replacement, ie instead of steam and fans you use lugs on a rim and exert a monodirectional force on the rim at 1000g

 

[ScrapSilicon]

Originally posted by: rbhawcroft For a start if the plasma was in a vacum how would the heat be transmitted? There arent any electrons to emit EMS energy.

vacuum? guess the same way the sun's electrons(and other energy constituents) gets thru a vacuum to our (and other areas..) mudball. Space is cold(vacuum) but in full light(energy particles/radiation of all types) you will "heat" up (notice that an astronaut's suit has climate-control i.e. heat/air-condition..)

 

[rbhawcroft]

Originally posted by: ScrapSilicon

Originally posted by: rbhawcroft For a start if the plasma was in a vacum how would the heat be transmitted? There arent any electrons to emit EMS energy.

vacuum? guess the same way the sun's electrons(and other energy constituents) gets thru a vacuum to our (and other areas..) mudball. Space is cold(vacuum) but in full light(energy particles/radiation of all types) you will "heat" up (notice that an astronaut's suit has climate-control i.e. heat/air-condition..)

well its been five yrs since i did physics and chem but as far as I know in the sun the mass has a full constituent of electrons attached to the hydrogen and helium atoms, therefore its natural for it to emit light, where as in a plasma reactor you only have protons and the resultant hydrogen neucleii and no electrons, so how would you get the energy out?

 

[PowerMacG5]

Originally posted by: Evadman
I remember reading up on this about a year ago when it was first released. 2% is nothing to us, but is a huge difference to science. if I remember cororectly, thedevice did not reduce gravity, it "warped" it around the device so that things sround the device would be 2% heavier.

This is correct. But, their are several theories on how the sapce could be warped to "produce" the energy needed to move. One theory states that you warp space around the ship, so that the space in front has a higher gravitational constant, than the space behing the ship. This would generate a pulling type of motion. Another theory states just the opposite, to reduce the gravitational constant behind the ship. This would cause a pushing motion. And another states to do both of those in tandem, reduce the gravitational constant in back, and increase in front. Their are several other theories, but I will not go off on all of them.

 

[Technonut]

I saw this linked from the HardOCP news page.... Quite interesting:

MEG Scalar Energy Device

Motionless Electromagnetic Generator

The Moray Radiant Energy Device

I am by all means no expert in this field, but would like to hear opinions from others regarding EM energy that are familiar with the concept.

EDIT: From this Link:

A colleague of the author has already rigorously proven this electrogravitational aspect on the laboratory bench. The phase conjugate (time reversed) wave is composed of, and carries, negative energy and negative time. If an object is forced to produce a great deal of this negative energy/negative time, it produces antigravity. This is because, in negative time, gravity is a repulsion, not an attraction.

EDIT: More interesting reading from This Page:

"Reversing or lowering the EG-charge" is controlled by means of biasing the ground potential on the ensemble pattern transmitters. These transmitters can even be on-board the vehicle itself. (Remember, in scalar EM to transmit is also to receive. A vehicle can change its own bias potential (with respect to local vacuum G-potential) by properly transmitting, which translates to "receiving potential charge." The charge current can either be negative or positive (its potential can be lowered or increased vis-a-vis that of the vacuum.) By fiddling "with this, you can float metal. Or a human body. Or a battleship. Or a high-speed vehicle containing a crew.