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Another view on the Somalia Pirates issue

Craig234

Lifer
May 1, 2006
38,548
345
126
Link to the article.

When the story came out, I mentioned that the real solution may well involve improving the situation in Somalia, as difficult as that it.

The article above makes a similar point, and discusses the false linking of the pirates to Al Queda (Islamofascistpirates, the word keeps getting longer).

It doesn't mean that there isn't a need to use violence in the short term to counter the threat posed by the pirates.

But as with urban crime or the urban riots in the late 60's, it does mean that that alone is not the best policy, that more is needed to avoid some of the piracy.

Basically, it's just a better commentary on the issue than the armchair 'use cannons! no, torpedos! No, unmanned laser robots!' level of commentary.

And that it's good to nip yet another righty myth, about the Al-Queda linkage, in the bud. Saddam and Al Queda, illegal immigrants and Al Queda, Pirates...

(For yet another view on the issue, see 38 seconds into the following video clip of Bill Maher:

Somali Pirates are too cute)
 

CanOWorms

Lifer
Jul 3, 2001
12,404
1
0
The way to improve Somalia would be first to get the Europeans to stop dumping their toxic waste in the seas there as well as stop overfishing their waters.
 
Jun 19, 2004
24,135
1,592
126
Originally posted by: CanOWorms
The way to improve Somalia would be first to get the Europeans to stop dumping their toxic waste in the seas there as well as stop overfishing their waters.
You mean so the Somalis can be the only ones doing that?
 

spacejamz

Lifer
Mar 31, 2003
10,406
734
126
Originally posted by: MagnusTheBrewer
Originally posted by: CanOWorms
The way to improve Somalia would be first to get the Europeans to stop dumping their toxic waste in the seas there as well as stop overfishing their waters.
You mean so the Somalis can be the only ones doing that?
Why don't the Somalia citizens do something to get a more stable government first? maybe if the majority of them didn't do khat ALL day long, they would actually give a shit about something and get something productive done..

Gotta love how people here refuse to make these people accountable for their actions...the warlords there are making life shitty for everyone yet no one there seems to want to do anything about because they are too fucking high all day long...



 

palehorse

Lifer
Dec 21, 2005
11,521
0
76
Pirates -> Al Shabaab -> Al Qa'ida

The links are certainly there, trust me. Just as it is in Afghanistan with the opium producers, criminal enterprises throughout the Islamic world have strong ties to Al Qa'ida. The ties may not be based on shared ideology or goals -- obviously -- but rather Al Qa'ida's eternal need for funding and smuggling methods. In most cases, these ties are marriages of convenience, nothing more. But, to deny the connections is just plain ignorant.

That said, the rest of your message is certainly true. One of the many fronts in our fight against all criminal and terrorist organizations is the need to improve the living conditions (infrastructure, education, industry, etc) of those 3rd-world countries where these groups thrive on the disenchanted masses. Nothing new there.

Doing so in Somalia, however, will take decades... so, in the meantime, increasing the risk of death for pirates is a must.
 

Hayabusa Rider

Admin Emeritus & Elite Member
Jan 26, 2000
50,872
4,214
126
Originally posted by: palehorse
Pirates -> Al Shabaab -> Al Qa'ida

The links are certainly there, trust me. Just as it is in Afghanistan with the opium producers, criminal enterprises throughout the Islamic world have strong ties to Al Qa'ida. The ties may not be based on shared ideology or goals -- obviously -- but rather Al Qa'ida's eternal need for funding and smuggling methods. In most cases, these ties are marriages of convenience, nothing more. But, to deny the connections is just plain ignorant.

That said, the rest of your message is certainly true. One of the many fronts in our fight against all criminal and terrorist organizations is the need to improve the living conditions (infrastructure, education, industry, etc) of those 3rd-world countries where these groups thrive on the disenchanted masses. Nothing new there.

Doing so in Somalia, however, will take decades... so, in the meantime, increasing the risk of death for pirates is a must.

There is absolutely no credible evidence of a connection between Al Qaida and the pirates. You might as well try to convince me that liquor store robberies are the work of the mafia.
 

palehorse

Lifer
Dec 21, 2005
11,521
0
76
Originally posted by: Hayabusa Rider
Originally posted by: palehorse
Pirates -> Al Shabaab -> Al Qa'ida

The links are certainly there, trust me. Just as it is in Afghanistan with the opium producers, criminal enterprises throughout the Islamic world have strong ties to Al Qa'ida. The ties may not be based on shared ideology or goals -- obviously -- but rather Al Qa'ida's eternal need for funding and smuggling methods. In most cases, these ties are marriages of convenience, nothing more. But, to deny the connections is just plain ignorant.

That said, the rest of your message is certainly true. One of the many fronts in our fight against all criminal and terrorist organizations is the need to improve the living conditions (infrastructure, education, industry, etc) of those 3rd-world countries where these groups thrive on the disenchanted masses. Nothing new there.

Doing so in Somalia, however, will take decades... so, in the meantime, increasing the risk of death for pirates is a must.
There is absolutely no credible evidence of a connection between Al Qaida and the pirates. You might as well try to convince me that liquor store robberies are the work of the mafia.
That is simply not true.
 

CanOWorms

Lifer
Jul 3, 2001
12,404
1
0
Originally posted by: spacejamz
Originally posted by: MagnusTheBrewer
Originally posted by: CanOWorms
The way to improve Somalia would be first to get the Europeans to stop dumping their toxic waste in the seas there as well as stop overfishing their waters.
You mean so the Somalis can be the only ones doing that?
Why don't the Somalia citizens do something to get a more stable government first? maybe if the majority of them didn't do khat ALL day long, they would actually give a shit about something and get something productive done..

Gotta love how people here refuse to make these people accountable for their actions...the warlords there are making life shitty for everyone yet no one there seems to want to do anything about because they are too fucking high all day long...
Many Somalis view the pirates as a sort of Coast Guard fighting the illegal European dumping of toxic waste and fishing in their waters. Having an environment that won't give you cancer and a source for economic activity seems to be pretty important.

Get rid of the toxic waste dumping & overfishing and maybe the pirates would now be viewed like true bandits.
 

Craig234

Lifer
May 1, 2006
38,548
345
126
Since some don't seem to click links, an excerpt:

Most of the pirates are former fishermen dislodged from their traditional source of income by much larger pirates, namely transnational fishing conglomerates. When a crippled Somali government proved incapable of securing its own coastline, those fishing companies moved in to suck up the rich catch in local waters. "To make matters worse," Katie Stuhldreher writes in the Christian Science Monitor, "there were reports that some foreign ships even dumped waste in Somali waters. That prompted local fishermen to attack foreign fishing vessels and demand compensation. The success of these early raids in the mid-1990s persuaded many young men to hang up their nets in favor of AK-47s."
This is much more believable, partially sympathetic, and tricky than the simple story.

Despite their different ideologies -- al-Qaida has one, the pirates don't -- it has become increasingly popular to assert a link between radical Islam and the Somali freebooters. The militant Somali faction al-Shabab, for instance, is allegedly in cahoots with the pirates, taking a cut of their money and helping with arms smuggling in order to prepare them for their raids. The pirates "are also reportedly helping al-Shabab develop an independent maritime force so that it can smuggle foreign jihadist fighters and 'special weapons' into Somalia," former U.S. ambassador to Ethiopia David Shinn has recently argued.

In fact, the Islamists in Somalia are no fans of piracy. The Islamic Courts Union (ICU), which had some rough control over Somalia before Ethiopia invaded the country in 2006, took on piracy, and the number of incidents dropped. The more militant al-Shabab, which grew out of the ICU and became an insurgent force after the Ethiopian invasion, has denounced piracy as an offense to Islam.
Suggesting that once again slight proximity of groups more at odds than allied is being exaggerated into grand schemes of conspiracy, to suit an ulterior agenda.

The lumping together of Islamists and pirates obscures the only real solution to Somalia's manifold problems. Piracy is not going to end through the greater exercise of outside force, no matter what New York Times columnist Thomas Friedman may think. (In a recent column lamenting the death of diplomacy in an "age of pirates," he recommended a surge in U.S. money and power to achieve success against all adversaries.) Indeed, the sniper killing of three pirates by three U.S. Navy Seals has, to date, merely spurred more ship seizures and hostage-taking.

Simply escalating militarily and "going to war" against the Somali pirates is likely to have about as much success as our last major venture against Somalia in the 1990s, which is now remembered only for the infamous Black Hawk Down incident. Rather, the United States and other countries must find a modus vivendi with the Islamists in Somali to bring the hope of political order and economic development to that benighted country.

Diplomacy and development, however lackluster they might seem up against a trio of dead-eyed sharpshooters, are the only real hope for Somalia and the commercial shipping that passes near its coastline.
Of course, between the Somalis, the foreign ships, and those who would use the pirates for their own agenda, you can ask who are the biggest pirates.
 

Craig234

Lifer
May 1, 2006
38,548
345
126
Originally posted by: palehorse
Believe whatever editorial fairy tales you wish Craig.
I'm not saying there's no truth in what you said; I am saying there's a history of people exaggerating such affiliations for their own reasons.

If the 'intelligence community is abuzz' with the allegations of these connections, and you are hearing that buzz, then you are hearing the allegations, and forwarding them.

It's entirely possible there's a marriage of convenience occuring, that former enemies form an alliance against a mutual enemy, as the pirates get angry at the US.

But the article provides history and evidence missing from any of your comments about the 'other side of the story'; it'd be nice to see you at least account for the other side a bit.

And if you have evidence for your conclusion, that obviously would be helpful, too. Until then, how are people to know how accurate your conclusions are?

You would have been here defending the 'Saddam trying to buy yellowcake from Nigeria' stories, if you were well connected with intelligence insiders close to Cheney years ago.

Well sources, good faith opinions, yet wrong. We have to sort through the available evidence. And right now the evidence says to note the hurdles to such an alliance, to note the nature of such an alliance if it did exist. It's easy to conflate 'Somalia teen pirates' with 'hardcore Al Queda forces' for policy purposes, and that's a mistake.
 

Hayabusa Rider

Admin Emeritus & Elite Member
Jan 26, 2000
50,872
4,214
126
Originally posted by: palehorse
Originally posted by: Hayabusa Rider
Originally posted by: palehorse
Pirates -> Al Shabaab -> Al Qa'ida

The links are certainly there, trust me. Just as it is in Afghanistan with the opium producers, criminal enterprises throughout the Islamic world have strong ties to Al Qa'ida. The ties may not be based on shared ideology or goals -- obviously -- but rather Al Qa'ida's eternal need for funding and smuggling methods. In most cases, these ties are marriages of convenience, nothing more. But, to deny the connections is just plain ignorant.

That said, the rest of your message is certainly true. One of the many fronts in our fight against all criminal and terrorist organizations is the need to improve the living conditions (infrastructure, education, industry, etc) of those 3rd-world countries where these groups thrive on the disenchanted masses. Nothing new there.

Doing so in Somalia, however, will take decades... so, in the meantime, increasing the risk of death for pirates is a must.
There is absolutely no credible evidence of a connection between Al Qaida and the pirates. You might as well try to convince me that liquor store robberies are the work of the mafia.
That is simply not true.
Produce it. Link the pirates to Al Qaeda
 

palehorse

Lifer
Dec 21, 2005
11,521
0
76
Originally posted by: Hayabusa Rider
Originally posted by: palehorse
Originally posted by: Hayabusa Rider
Originally posted by: palehorse
Pirates -> Al Shabaab -> Al Qa'ida

The links are certainly there, trust me. Just as it is in Afghanistan with the opium producers, criminal enterprises throughout the Islamic world have strong ties to Al Qa'ida. The ties may not be based on shared ideology or goals -- obviously -- but rather Al Qa'ida's eternal need for funding and smuggling methods. In most cases, these ties are marriages of convenience, nothing more. But, to deny the connections is just plain ignorant.

That said, the rest of your message is certainly true. One of the many fronts in our fight against all criminal and terrorist organizations is the need to improve the living conditions (infrastructure, education, industry, etc) of those 3rd-world countries where these groups thrive on the disenchanted masses. Nothing new there.

Doing so in Somalia, however, will take decades... so, in the meantime, increasing the risk of death for pirates is a must.
There is absolutely no credible evidence of a connection between Al Qaida and the pirates. You might as well try to convince me that liquor store robberies are the work of the mafia.
That is simply not true.
Produce it. Link the pirates to Al Qaeda
You know I won't do that, so I'm obviously at a severe disadvantage in this debate. That doesn't make what I wrote any less true...

/shrug
 

theflyingpig

Banned
Mar 9, 2008
5,616
18
0
Somalia cannot be fixed by outsiders. Any money sent there will go to those in power, and they are not interested helping others. Somalia is a failed state. It should be left to burn. Everyone knows this.
 

UberNeuman

Lifer
Nov 4, 1999
16,937
3,083
126
Originally posted by: palehorse
Originally posted by: Hayabusa Rider
Originally posted by: palehorse
Originally posted by: Hayabusa Rider
Originally posted by: palehorse
Pirates -> Al Shabaab -> Al Qa'ida

The links are certainly there, trust me. Just as it is in Afghanistan with the opium producers, criminal enterprises throughout the Islamic world have strong ties to Al Qa'ida. The ties may not be based on shared ideology or goals -- obviously -- but rather Al Qa'ida's eternal need for funding and smuggling methods. In most cases, these ties are marriages of convenience, nothing more. But, to deny the connections is just plain ignorant.

That said, the rest of your message is certainly true. One of the many fronts in our fight against all criminal and terrorist organizations is the need to improve the living conditions (infrastructure, education, industry, etc) of those 3rd-world countries where these groups thrive on the disenchanted masses. Nothing new there.

Doing so in Somalia, however, will take decades... so, in the meantime, increasing the risk of death for pirates is a must.
There is absolutely no credible evidence of a connection between Al Qaida and the pirates. You might as well try to convince me that liquor store robberies are the work of the mafia.
That is simply not true.
Produce it. Link the pirates to Al Qaeda
You know I won't do that, so I'm obviously at a severe disadvantage in this debate. That doesn't make what I wrote any less true...

/shrug
It doesn't make it anything.... Unless you're hinting at having information on that question - which in turn you'd be violating any non-disclosure term you would be under....
 

palehorse

Lifer
Dec 21, 2005
11,521
0
76
Originally posted by: UberNeuman
Originally posted by: palehorse
Originally posted by: Hayabusa Rider
Originally posted by: palehorse
Originally posted by: Hayabusa Rider
Originally posted by: palehorse
Pirates -> Al Shabaab -> Al Qa'ida

The links are certainly there, trust me. Just as it is in Afghanistan with the opium producers, criminal enterprises throughout the Islamic world have strong ties to Al Qa'ida. The ties may not be based on shared ideology or goals -- obviously -- but rather Al Qa'ida's eternal need for funding and smuggling methods. In most cases, these ties are marriages of convenience, nothing more. But, to deny the connections is just plain ignorant.

That said, the rest of your message is certainly true. One of the many fronts in our fight against all criminal and terrorist organizations is the need to improve the living conditions (infrastructure, education, industry, etc) of those 3rd-world countries where these groups thrive on the disenchanted masses. Nothing new there.

Doing so in Somalia, however, will take decades... so, in the meantime, increasing the risk of death for pirates is a must.
There is absolutely no credible evidence of a connection between Al Qaida and the pirates. You might as well try to convince me that liquor store robberies are the work of the mafia.
That is simply not true.
Produce it. Link the pirates to Al Qaeda
You know I won't do that, so I'm obviously at a severe disadvantage in this debate. That doesn't make what I wrote any less true...

/shrug
It doesn't make it anything.... Unless you're hinting at having information on that question - which in turn you'd be violating any non-disclosure term you would be under....
Some guy on the interwebz told me, so I know it's true.

:p
 

JEDIYoda

Lifer
Jul 13, 2005
33,697
3,156
126
Originally posted by: palehorse
Originally posted by: Hayabusa Rider
Originally posted by: palehorse
Pirates -> Al Shabaab -> Al Qa'ida

The links are certainly there, trust me. Just as it is in Afghanistan with the opium producers, criminal enterprises throughout the Islamic world have strong ties to Al Qa'ida. The ties may not be based on shared ideology or goals -- obviously -- but rather Al Qa'ida's eternal need for funding and smuggling methods. In most cases, these ties are marriages of convenience, nothing more. But, to deny the connections is just plain ignorant.

That said, the rest of your message is certainly true. One of the many fronts in our fight against all criminal and terrorist organizations is the need to improve the living conditions (infrastructure, education, industry, etc) of those 3rd-world countries where these groups thrive on the disenchanted masses. Nothing new there.

Doing so in Somalia, however, will take decades... so, in the meantime, increasing the risk of death for pirates is a must.
There is absolutely no credible evidence of a connection between Al Qaida and the pirates. You might as well try to convince me that liquor store robberies are the work of the mafia.
That is simply not true.
It is very true!!
Maybe in your reality it`s not but, your reality is screwed up!!
 

mugs

Lifer
Apr 29, 2003
48,900
10
81
Originally posted by: palehorse
Originally posted by: Hayabusa Rider
Originally posted by: palehorse
Originally posted by: Hayabusa Rider
Originally posted by: palehorse
Pirates -> Al Shabaab -> Al Qa'ida

The links are certainly there, trust me. Just as it is in Afghanistan with the opium producers, criminal enterprises throughout the Islamic world have strong ties to Al Qa'ida. The ties may not be based on shared ideology or goals -- obviously -- but rather Al Qa'ida's eternal need for funding and smuggling methods. In most cases, these ties are marriages of convenience, nothing more. But, to deny the connections is just plain ignorant.

That said, the rest of your message is certainly true. One of the many fronts in our fight against all criminal and terrorist organizations is the need to improve the living conditions (infrastructure, education, industry, etc) of those 3rd-world countries where these groups thrive on the disenchanted masses. Nothing new there.

Doing so in Somalia, however, will take decades... so, in the meantime, increasing the risk of death for pirates is a must.
There is absolutely no credible evidence of a connection between Al Qaida and the pirates. You might as well try to convince me that liquor store robberies are the work of the mafia.
That is simply not true.
Produce it. Link the pirates to Al Qaeda
You know I won't do that, so I'm obviously at a severe disadvantage in this debate. That doesn't make what I wrote any less true...

/shrug
Of course we all know you won't, because you can't. And of course you're at a disadvantage in a debate when you make shit up.

/shrug
 

Wheezer

Diamond Member
Nov 2, 1999
6,731
1
0
Somalian piracy is like prostitution...you will never get rid of it.

It has been going on for a long time now, no one in the media cared.....all of a sudden it's the "new thing" to report on until something else comes along to grab their microwave attention span.

It will continue to go on even after it is passe' to report on it on the daily news.

The only way to curb it is to start sinking the fuckers and letting them drown.

 

GroundedSailor

Platinum Member
Feb 18, 2001
2,502
0
76
Originally posted by: palehorse
Originally posted by: Hayabusa Rider
Originally posted by: palehorse
Originally posted by: Hayabusa Rider
Originally posted by: palehorse
Pirates -> Al Shabaab -> Al Qa'ida

The links are certainly there, trust me. Just as it is in Afghanistan with the opium producers, criminal enterprises throughout the Islamic world have strong ties to Al Qa'ida. The ties may not be based on shared ideology or goals -- obviously -- but rather Al Qa'ida's eternal need for funding and smuggling methods. In most cases, these ties are marriages of convenience, nothing more. But, to deny the connections is just plain ignorant.

That said, the rest of your message is certainly true. One of the many fronts in our fight against all criminal and terrorist organizations is the need to improve the living conditions (infrastructure, education, industry, etc) of those 3rd-world countries where these groups thrive on the disenchanted masses. Nothing new there.

Doing so in Somalia, however, will take decades... so, in the meantime, increasing the risk of death for pirates is a must.
There is absolutely no credible evidence of a connection between Al Qaida and the pirates. You might as well try to convince me that liquor store robberies are the work of the mafia.
That is simply not true.
Produce it. Link the pirates to Al Qaeda
You know I won't do that, so I'm obviously at a severe disadvantage in this debate. That doesn't make what I wrote any less true...

/shrug
While I won't completely write off what you post, i.e. there could be marriages of convenience and with the world cracking down on financial transactions, AQ might well be looking at easy money by getting involved in the piracy business. But everywhere I have read seems to discount that connection for now. The last powers-that-were in Somalia were no fans of piracy either - the articles does point that out.

Piracy has been around for a long time. I remember being boarded on ships sailing down rivers in South Asia back in the 70's, and always keeping piracy watches while transiting Malacca/Singapore straits, off the coasts of Indonesia, South China Sea and certain parts of the African coast. They were mostly opportunists taking what they could from the ships (and crew) and getting off.

There were rare incidents of ships being hijacked but that was suspected to be the work of Chinese gangsters (it was always suspected the Red army was complicit in those hijackings) and they always occurred off the Chinese coast.

Somalis have taken modern piracy to the next level as there is easy money for them. I also agree with the OP that while using force is a short term measure it will not work in the long term. The area covered by the pirates is too large to be effectively policed by any navy. Stabilizing the country has to play that long term role. Only when the pirates have to hide on land from the authorities will piracy begin to abate.




 

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