Another question for theologians...

[Orsorum]

This is something that has bothered me for a while; my roommate and I just had a discussion about it, I'm curious to see what y'all have to say. I would appreciate it if people would refrain from shouting NART or flaming... it's useless and a waste of everyone's time.

I'm curious as to why there are no accounts of Jesus' life and death outside of the biblical texts. I know that the gospel of Luke is an extremely good account, but most atheists/agnostics dismiss that simply on the basis that it is a biblical text, that Luke was a Christian, etc.

Why are there no reliable outside sources of information concerning first-hand accounts of Jesus' life or death?

 

[rgwalt]

There are, though I don't know of any specifics. There are references to Jesus and his life in Roman literature and accounts, from what I understand. If you want to know more, try reading: The Case for Christ by Lee Strobel. He also has a new book called The case for Faith.

The Case for...

Ryan

 

[Orsorum]

<< There are, though I don't know of any specifics. There are references to Jesus and his life in Roman literature and accounts, from what I understand. If you want to know more, try reading: The Case for Christ by Lee Strobel. He also has a new book called The case for Faith.

The Case for...

Ryan >>



Bah, the link doesn't quite work. I've had those two books on my reading list for some time, I'm still working on a book by Robert Wilkin and Newton's Principia. Thanks for the suggestions!

 

[Yzzim]

This should keep you busy for a while

Not sure if that site mentions it or not, but I remember hearing that a Roman (?) coin was made which bears the face of Jesus. Haven't found any more info on it, but it was quite interesting.

 

[gopunk]

my best guess is that people thought he was nuts. i mean if some guy today did what he did, we would say he was insane as well right? not to say that jesus was nuts, just saying that i bet a lot of people thought he was.

 

[WarCon]

Wasn't there reference to him in the Talmud (Jewish Oral Tradition) and is mentioned in the works of Flavius Josephus (sp?).

 

[Yzzim]

<< my best guess is that people thought he was nuts. i mean if some guy today did what he did, we would say he was insane as well right? not to say that jesus was nuts, just saying that i bet a lot of people thought he was. >>


I've often thought about that. However, there were prophecies in the Bible saying that he was going to come one day and those prophecies said exactly what was going to happen.
Only problem is back then not everyone had access to a Bible. Usually only the Pharisees had them and they told everyone else what to believe. The Pharisees got so stuck in traidition and weren't accepting of a change or the coming of Christ that they were blind when Christ was actually there.

 

[Spendthrift]

dont know about the talmud, but the josephus reference is sometimes dismissed as a later edition to the text.

if i remember correctly, the part about Jesus doesnt seem to fit in the context or flow of the rest of the section.

i havent researched it and made up my mind about it yet.

as for extra-biblical accounts...i think if there was another accurate account of Jesus' life it would have been included in the Bible and therefore be a biblical text (which people would then dismiss as being a biblical text )

 

[Orsorum]

<< my best guess is that people thought he was nuts. i mean if some guy today did what he did, we would say he was insane as well right? not to say that jesus was nuts, just saying that i bet a lot of people thought he was. >>



That's one of the ideas that my roommate and I thought of as well... I mean, to make a claim like that, the vast majority of people in the Roman world must have considered him insane. As well, his crucifixion wasn't all that uncommon, in the Roman day. Pilate himself must have overseen dozens of them a month (or so), and the Romans were probably used to having madmen claiming divinity executed.

I'm still surprised that no one took account of him, as in writing down hardcore, first-hand accounts. If I'm not mistaken, there were a few earlier Jewish men who had claimed divinity as well, had developed small followings, and been summarily executed... but I don't know if there is any better historical evidence for them as well.

 

[Orsorum]

<< dont know about the talmud, but the josephus reference is sometimes dismissed as a later edition to the text.

if i remember correctly, the part about Jesus doesnt seem to fit in the context or flow of the rest of the section.

i havent researched it and made up my mind about it yet.

as for extra-biblical accounts...i think if there was another accurate account of Jesus' life it would have been included in the Bible and therefore be a biblical text (which people would then dismiss as being a biblical text ) >>



lol That's something that my roommate said, as well... didn't even think about that. If you look at Luke's writings, he was a physician, I believe, highly educated; I think his accounts are regarded as the most concrete. *sigh* Again, most people dismiss it because it is a biblical text. Grr. Where's Athanasius when you need him?

 

[notfred]

I'd guess that any significant first hand accounts of jesus' life would have been included in the Bible.

Poeople compiling the bible: "hey these books about jesus - should we put them in?"
editor: "yeah, that'll be some good filler"

I mean - why wouldn't they be in the bible?

 

[Orsorum]

<< I'd guess that any significant first hand accounts of jesus' life would have been included in the Bible.

Poeople compiling the bible: "hey these books about jesus - should we put them in?"
editor: "yeah, that'll be some good filler"

I mean - why wouldn't they be in the bible? >>



I'd imagine if they were written by pagans or non-converted Jews...

 

[Yzzim]

<< This is something that has bothered me for a while; my roommate and I just had a discussion about it, I'm curious to see what y'all have to say. I would appreciate it if people would refrain from shouting NART or flaming... it's useless and a waste of everyone's time.

I'm curious as to why there are no accounts of Jesus' life and death outside of the biblical texts. I know that the gospel of Luke is an extremely good account, but most atheists/agnostics dismiss that simply on the basis that it is a biblical text, that Luke was a Christian, etc.

Why are there no reliable outside sources of information concerning first-hand accounts of Jesus' life or death? >>


Are you saying that the gospel of Luke is not reliable? How about the gospel of John? Matthew? Mark? What about the writings by Peter? Will Peter work for you?

 

[Yzzim]

<< I'm still surprised that no one took account of him, as in writing down hardcore, first-hand accounts. If I'm not mistaken, there were a few earlier Jewish men who had claimed divinity as well, had developed small followings, and been summarily executed... but I don't know if there is any better historical evidence for them as well. >>


Did you miss my link? If so, here it is again: Text

 

[Orsorum]

<<

<< I'm still surprised that no one took account of him, as in writing down hardcore, first-hand accounts. If I'm not mistaken, there were a few earlier Jewish men who had claimed divinity as well, had developed small followings, and been summarily executed... but I don't know if there is any better historical evidence for them as well. >>


Did you miss my link? If so, here it is again: Text >>



I read through your link... it had some good stuff. I'm reading through a book by Robert Wilkin that's covered just a little bit of that material.

I guess, the roadblock I'm running into is that there are no first-hand accounts of Jesus' life or miracles - there are second-hand accounts, Josephus mentions Jesus in some of his writings, Pliny mentions the Christian movement, and many others; I'm in the midst of reading about Celsus. They are all great accounts, but still - no eyewitnesses beyond the apostles and other Christians.

The gospels are relatively secure in a historical document sense, but they were written by men who were followers of Christ. A doctor can be skilled, and yet still have his judgement obscured. Does this make sense? From the point of view of a non-Christian, the very fact that an account of Christs' life was written by a Christian is proof of its illegitimacy.

 

[Yzzim]

<< I guess, the roadblock I'm running into is that there are no first-hand accounts of Jesus' life or miracles - there are second-hand accounts, Josephus mentions Jesus in some of his writings, Pliny mentions the Christian movement, and many others; I'm in the midst of reading about Celsus. They are all great accounts, but still - no eyewitnesses beyond the apostles and other Christians. >>


There's probably a reason why there's no account by anyone other than Christians....everyone who saw Jesus give sight to someone who was blind, make a lame man walk again, or cure someone with lepersy was baptised on the spot and thus made a Christian. That would be a pretty awesome sight.

 

[Orsorum]

<<

<< I guess, the roadblock I'm running into is that there are no first-hand accounts of Jesus' life or miracles - there are second-hand accounts, Josephus mentions Jesus in some of his writings, Pliny mentions the Christian movement, and many others; I'm in the midst of reading about Celsus. They are all great accounts, but still - no eyewitnesses beyond the apostles and other Christians. >>


There's probably a reason why there's no account by anyone other than Christians....everyone who saw Jesus give sight to someone who was blind, make a lame man walk again, or cure someone with lepersy was baptised on the spot and thus made a Christian. That would be a pretty awesome sight. >>



Aye, it would be... and I guess that's what I keep running into (picture a man running repeatedly into a brick wall, head-first...). Logically, it makes sense that the only people who would write about Jesus' miracles or even His life would be Christians, since they would be the only ones interested (and because they would be Christians after witnessing it...etc), no one else took that much notice.

I doubt even the Sanhedrin cared that much for a while (until a couple hundred years later, at least).

Still, that's not really all that good of an answer for most non-Christians... grrr!

 

[WarCon]

I guess, the roadblock I'm running into is that there are no first-hand accounts of Jesus' life or miracles - there are second-hand accounts, Josephus mentions Jesus in some of his writings, Pliny mentions the Christian movement, and many others; I'm in the midst of reading about Celsus. They are all great accounts, but still - no eyewitnesses beyond the apostles and other Christians.


There's probably a reason why there's no account by anyone other than Christians....everyone who saw Jesus give sight to someone who was blind, make a lame man walk again, or cure someone with lepersy was baptised on the spot and thus made a Christian. That would be a pretty awesome sight.

Well said.

 

[Nefrodite]

well what about the holy guy for the mormons and stuff. there is documentation outside his holy texts he exists.

 

[Nemesis77]

To my knowledge there is a roman record which mentions the crusifiction of a person called Jesus. The date of the crusifiction seems to match. If I remember correctly, the cause of the crusifiction was recorded was "instigating a revolt" or something along those lines.

 

[Orsorum]

<< well what about the holy guy for the mormons and stuff. there is documentation outside his holy texts he exists. >>



Joseph Smith was a man - however, his own personal accounts contradict themselves repeatedly. I have no doubt as to Joseph Smith's existence - his divinity, however, is another matter.

 

[Orsorum]

<< To my knowledge there is a roman record which mentions the crusifiction of a person called Jesus. The date of the crusifiction seems to match. If I remember correctly, the cause of the crusifiction was recorded was "instigating a revolt" or something along those lines. >>



Interesting... I'll have to see if I might be able to find something on that.

 

[Hammer]

josephus is the only other account I can think of off the top of my head.