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Another neighborhood watch beating up a black teen

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Throckmorton

Lifer
Aug 23, 2007
16,833
1
0
Any group can do it. But its not PC to talk about it, let alone file charges against minorities for hate crimes. There are far to many cases where a white person is a victim and there are no hate crime charges filed, yet if the roles were reversed hell would freeze over as Al/Jesse Jackson march to that city in their search for being constantly outraged.
Did you miss the hate crime thread the other day, and the one I posted a year or two ago? Blacks commit a disproportionate majority of crimes classified by the government as hate crimes. It's a myth that only crimes by whites can be classified as hate crimes. Stop repeating it. Seriously.
 

Ninjahedge

Diamond Member
Mar 2, 2005
4,148
1
76
Not sure if I agree.

I usually agree with South Park's analysis of these sorts of things, but I couldn't resolve the issue when they took on hate crimes.. They're argument was that the motivation for a crime shouldn't affect the sentencing.

Okay. Then 911 wasn't a terrorist act. It was just murder.
Over 3000 counts of murder, and a multi-billion dollar development.

I can't see how applying the terms "Hate" or "Terrorism" would do anything to increase their sentences.

What, are we going to raise them from the dead, torture them, try them, torture them again and then crash them into a building in their homeland with their families inside?

Yeah.

Nice red herring though.
 
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ichy

Diamond Member
Oct 5, 2006
6,940
6
81
Okay. Then 911 wasn't a terrorist act. It was just murder.
Timothy McVeigh wasn't charged with terrorism, he was executed for regular old murder. Somehow that seems adequate.

The dragging death of James Byrd Jr. back in 1998 was another perfect example of the stupidity of hate crime laws. Byrd was murdered by three white men and a lot of people made a big hoopla over the fact that they couldn't be charged with a hate crime. Two of his killers were sentenced to death though (one has already been executed) and the third received a life sentence. Looks like the lack of a hate crime statute in Texas didn't prevent them from being punished. What we need is vigorous punishment for ALL violent crimes.
 

hal2kilo

Lifer
Feb 24, 2009
15,887
4,008
136
Oh come on. Just because the conservatives on this board are posting every single thread they can to push their "black people are bad" agenda doesn't mean we need to counteract them and post a thread for every example of race based violence against black people.
I learned long ago not to fight with pigs, you get dirty, and the pigs like it.
 

rudder

Lifer
Nov 9, 2000
19,431
82
91
Oh come on. Just because the conservatives on this board are posting every single thread they can to push their "black people are bad" agenda doesn't mean we need to counteract them and post a thread for every example of race based violence against black people.
There is no "black people are bad" agenda. It is about the media getting the black community riled up over ever white on black crime proclaiming racism and such in every single case. The main stream media feeds the frenzy and makes a bad situation worse. The situation is not helped by the president going on TV and stirring more racial divide.

So yes, there is racism in this world and there is crime. Not all crime is based on hatred. Everyone needs to give it a rest.
 
Jan 25, 2011
16,062
7,517
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There is no "black people are bad" agenda. It is about the media getting the black community riled up over ever white on black crime proclaiming racism and such in every single case. The main stream media feeds the frenzy and makes a bad situation worse. The situation is not helped by the president going on TV and stirring more racial divide.

So yes, there is racism in this world and there is crime. Not all crime is based on hatred. Everyone needs to give it a rest.
Really? So that thread on blacks committing more murders per capita was about the media portraying white on black crime as racist?
 

woolfe9999

Diamond Member
Mar 28, 2005
7,164
0
0
Timothy McVeigh wasn't charged with terrorism, he was executed for regular old murder. Somehow that seems adequate.

The dragging death of James Byrd Jr. back in 1998 was another perfect example of the stupidity of hate crime laws. Byrd was murdered by three white men and a lot of people made a big hoopla over the fact that they couldn't be charged with a hate crime. Two of his killers were sentenced to death though (one has already been executed) and the third received a life sentence. Looks like the lack of a hate crime statute in Texas didn't prevent them from being punished. What we need is vigorous punishment for ALL violent crimes.
With pre-meditated murder, a hate crime enhancement may seem superfluous if they're going to get the death penalty or LWOP. However, most hate crime enhancements apply in assault/battery cases, sometimes in cases of defacement of property.
 

woolfe9999

Diamond Member
Mar 28, 2005
7,164
0
0
Over 3000 counts of murder, and a multi-billion dollar development.

I can't see how applying the terms "Hate" or "Terrorism" would do anything to increase their sentences.

What, are we going to raise them from the dead, torture them, try them, torture them again and then crash them into a building in their homeland with their families inside?

Yeah.

Nice red herring though.
It isn't a red herring though. Atreus is exactly correct. We prosecute for terrorism and it may enhance the sentence. It wouldn't have mattered in the particular case of 911 but that isn't the point.

We prosecute differently based on motives for a variety of reasons. Some motives we consider to be more morally reprehensible than others. Some are just more dangerous than others. That is the theory of hate crimes, terrorism, gang related crimes. All are class-based violence, be it for a political cause or cultural attitude, inter-group animosity. That kind of violence is different than common crime because it tends to beget more violence. They invite never ending cycles of retaliation and can spread infectiously. These kinds of violence present special dangers for society as a whole.

- wolf
 
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Ninjahedge

Diamond Member
Mar 2, 2005
4,148
1
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Wolf, not really.

When something gets that big, it is simply a heinous crime.

NO act of terrorism that I know would EVER be treated lightly. Use of the term only invites abusive appellation. "Money Laundering is bad, but it is MUCH worse when Terrorists do it than the Mafia!!!"... etc etc.
 

Doppel

Lifer
Feb 5, 2011
13,313
2
0
Not sure if I agree.

I usually agree with South Park's analysis of these sorts of things, but I couldn't resolve the issue when they took on hate crimes.. They're argument was that the motivation for a crime shouldn't affect the sentencing.

Okay. Then 911 wasn't a terrorist act. It was just murder.
OK, so it was just murder, why make it a terrorist act? Terrorism is a grossly, vastly overused term now anyhow. Hate crimes as they are currently used in law don't make sense to me.

Intent in a crime always matters, always has and always will. If I'm speeding and hit somebody and kill them it's an unfortunate and negligent act, but far less severe than if I deliberately run somebody over to kill them. We know this innately. But whether I assault you because I hate your skin or assault you because I'm just having a bad day, it hardly matters; either one is as despicable.
 

woolfe9999

Diamond Member
Mar 28, 2005
7,164
0
0
OK, so it was just murder, why make it a terrorist act? Terrorism is a grossly, vastly overused term now anyhow. Hate crimes as they are currently used in law don't make sense to me.

Intent in a crime always matters, always has and always will. If I'm speeding and hit somebody and kill them it's an unfortunate and negligent act, but far less severe than if I deliberately run somebody over to kill them. We know this innately. But whether I assault you because I hate your skin or assault you because I'm just having a bad day, it hardly matters; either one is as despicable.
The purpose of criminal justice is not only to punish wrongdoing. It is also to protect the public. Hate crimes present a greater danger to the public than common street crimes because they create the possibility of endless retaliation, escalation from lesser to greater violence, broader racial tensions, communities in turmoil, etc.

Similarly with terrorism where it is either organized violence for political reasons or else may spark copycat terrorism by sympathetic lone wolves (like the Fort Hood shooting), and instills terror and fear in the public which can cause economic problems, loss of civil liberties from over-reaction by the state, invasive airport searches, water boarding, warfare, etc.

Similarly with gang-related offenses: cross-retaliations, innocents caught in the cross-fire, etc.

One person shooting another to rob them is one thing. Open warfare in the streets for gang pride, political reasons, race rioting is another. Society has an especially compelling interest in preventing/deterring group on group violence because a civil society simply cannot tolerate it.

The point of the hate crime enhancement isn't necessarily to express a higher degree of moral disapproval for a violent crime with that sort of motive versus another. It's a recognition that not all crimes present the same degree of danger to the public.

- wolf
 
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Ninjahedge

Diamond Member
Mar 2, 2005
4,148
1
76
One should really not be held solely responsible for the actions of another.

It is a tricky subject, but saying that because they hated someone for a particular reason that makes the crime different is not logical.

The only place hate crimes really start to pass water is when they differentiate between a smiley face and a swastika painted on a synagogue.
 

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