Another good reason to separate ammo and guns under lock and key

[BaliBabyDoc]

It is a short article in Yahoo Health . . . I know how much many of you hate to read.

Impulsivity and Suicide

In a supplement to the current issue of Suicide and Life-Threatening Behavior, Simon and his team report that 24% of suicide survivors attempted suicide within 5 minutes of making a decision to do so--behavior the researchers defined as "impulsive." They note that 5% said they had spent just a single second between making such a decision and an attempt.

Simon also highlighted the need to better identify those young people who are at risk for impulsive suicide. "(We need to) help them to learn to control aggressive impulses--and to restrict their access to lethal means for suicide."

It is relatively rare that I see patients that deliberate before making a suicide attempt. Of course, many will still have access to drugs, cars, knives, and rope but the reduction in severe injuries and deaths would be great if fewer people owned firearms and if those that do kept them under lock and key separate from the ammunition.

1) More people die from suicide than from homicide. In 1997, there were 1.5 times as many suicides as homicides.

2) Overall, suicide is the eighth leading cause of death for all Americans, and is the third leading cause of death for young people aged 15-24.

3) Males are four times more likely to die from suicide than are females. However, females are more likely to attempt suicide than are males.

 

[notfred]

there's actaully a publication called Suicide and Life-Threatening Behavior?

And, see, another thing that men are better at than women.

 

[Gonad the Barbarian]

I've heard home intruders will actually wait for you to get the ammo for your gun now if you ask nicely too.

 

[BaliBabyDoc]

Good synopsis of US stats 1996 and 1997

Yeah but the whole hanging thing escapes me . . . it typically won't even cross a female's mind but it's always high on a guy's list of options.

Most of this information has been well-known clinically for a long time and we've always known that impulsivity is prominent. The only real achievement here is quantifying just how little time may elapse between the thought and attempt.

 

[Anubis]

hey if people want to kill them selfs what gives us the right to stop them???? its there decission aint it

 

[vi edit]

<< 3) Males are four times more likely to die from suicide than are females. However, females are more likely to attempt suicide than are males. >>





<< Yeah but the whole hanging thing escapes me . . . it typically won't even cross a female's mind but it's always high on a guy's list of options. >>



Men are something like 5 times more likely to try and commit suicide in a "violent" manner than women. Violent would be shooting themselves or driving a car into a concrete wall at high speeds. That's pretty much why they are more "sucessful".

 

[BaliBabyDoc]

I've heard home intruders will actually wait for you to get the ammo for your gun now if you ask nicely too.

I understand your concern but the odds do not support your argument. It is more likely that a loaded unlocked weapon will precipitate injury than protect you from injury within your home.

Regardless, it is a balance of concerns. A loaded unlocked weapon may be quite practical for a single woman living in East LA, Compton, and almost anywhere in DC. But a young male (teen to early twenties), middle-aged male (45-60), or any household with children the balance favors no weapon or tightly controlled weapons. I think the evidence supports education as being somewhat beneficial . . . but it is not very strong.

For instance, teaching children how to properly handle firearms will decrease the likelihood that they will shoot themselves or a playmate. It does not decrease the risk of suicide attempt.

 

[Polgara]

How many of the attempted suicides each year are with a handgun? How does this compare with the 2 Million times a year handguns are used successfully in self defense?

Sarah <== Daddy gave her a LadySmith .38 Revolver as graduation present

 

[Maetryx]

I'd like to point out that the article starts out talking about gun related suicides but uses statistics that relate to ALL suicides and homicides. This bait and switch routine is used all the time by the anti-freedom health organizations and media.

 

[BaliBabyDoc]

That's pretty much why they are more "sucessful

Duh . . . I don't understand WHY they choose more violent means . . . in particular HANGING. The vast majority of households have prescription drugs, access to illicit drugs, and certainly cutting tools; all means favored by women. One hypothesis relates to comorbid depression and using a mode consistent with punishment but it hasn't been study very much.

 

[mikebb]

<< For instance, teaching children how to properly handle firearms will decrease the likelihood that they will shoot themselves or a playmate. It does not decrease the risk of suicide attempt >>



Nor will owning a gun increase the chances that one will consider suicide. How about addressing the reason why people consider suicide in the first place instead of blaming the means they use to kill themselves?

 

[Maetryx]

<< It is more likely that a loaded unlocked weapon will precipitate injury than protect you from injury within your home. >>



I'd like to see your source on the above statement. I notice the qualification "within your home" so I'm thinking the statement might be true in that way only (although I don't grant that without seeing the study).

 

[Russ]

<< It is more likely that a loaded unlocked weapon will precipitate injury than protect you from injury within your home. >>



I have loaded, unlocked weapons both at home and at work. The only "injury" that will EVER be precipitated will be upon the B&E specialist who violates my space. Said "injury" will be career ending.

Russ, NCNE

 

[BaliBabyDoc]

I'd like to point out that the article starts out talking about gun related suicides but uses statistics that relate to ALL suicides and homicides. This bait and switch routine is used all the time by the anti-freedom health organizations and media.

Actually it starts out talking about near lethal suicide attempts (any attempt that would have resulted in death without immediate intervention). The only people they could interview were survivors. DOH! And out of the group of survivors 24% required less than 5 minutes to make a near lethal attempt. I've read it three times and it only mentions gun suicides in relation to the general theme that impulsive attempts were more likely to be violent and that we should improve screening for young people, help them deal with impulsive/aggressive tendencies, and restrict access to violent means.

The second link shows 58.8% of suicides in 1996 were by firearm. Regardless of your opinion on anti-freedom health organizations and media (I dislike them as well); the majority of suicides are by firearm. It is the preferred method of males and young people; the research covered men and women ages 13-34 in Houston, TX.

NEW YORK (Reuters Health) - Almost one in four Americans who survive a nearly lethal suicide attempt spent fewer than 5 minutes between making the decision to attempt suicide and carrying out the act, according to researchers.


"These results indicate a clear need to prevent impulsive suicidal behavior," said study lead author Dr. Tom Simon, a behavioral scientist at the Centers for Disease Control's National Center for Injury Prevention and Control in Atlanta, Georgia.

Simon and his colleagues focused on over 650 men and women between the ages of 13 and 34 who live in Houston, Texas. More than 150 of the participants had made a suicide attempt that would have resulted in death without immediate intervention. All were interviewed between 1992 and 1995.

The investigators reviewed psychiatric evaluations outlining the patients' attempted suicide method, as well as the severity of the resulting injury. Simon and his team also interviewed all the participants to assess how much time passed between the decision to attempt suicide and the attempt; the number of prior attempts; how likely it was they thought they would die as a result; who they may have warned; alcohol use; history of depression and mental healthcare; and their history of impulsive behaviors at work or in social environments.

In a supplement to the current issue of Suicide and Life-Threatening Behavior, Simon and his team report that 24% of suicide survivors attempted suicide within 5 minutes of making a decision to do so--behavior the researchers defined as "impulsive." They note that 5% said they had spent just a single second between making such a decision and an attempt.

The researchers further observed that while alcohol use, race, education and marital status played no special role in the likelihood of impulsive suicides, male patients were almost twice as likely as female patients to make an impulsive suicide attempt--31% versus 16%. Impulsive attempts, they noted, were more likely to occur at night and to involve more violent means, such as guns, hanging, cutting and jumping.

Among suicide attempters, the authors note, those who had a history of physical fights in the prior year were more likely to make an impulsive attempt. Those who tended to be depressed or feel hopeless, however, appeared to be less likely to make an impulsive attempt--leaving the researchers to suggest that current risk-screening for suicide may be too narrowly focused on signs of long-running depression rather than shorter-term emotional problems.

"We may need to supplement our traditional approach of identifying and treating depression," Simon told Reuters Health. He indicated that mental health providers should broaden their understanding of risk factors, to account for those who might not have a history of chronic depression but who may nonetheless impulsively attempt suicide after a troubling personal event.

Simon also highlighted the need to better identify those young people who are at risk for impulsive suicide. "(We need to) help them to learn to control aggressive impulses--and to restrict their access to lethal means for suicide."

SOURCE: Suicide and Life-Threatening Behavior 2002;32:49-59.

 

[BaliBabyDoc]

How many of the attempted suicides each year are with a handgun? How does this compare with the 2 Million times a year handguns are used successfully in self defense?

Attempted suicides by firearm is approximately equal to ED admissions for gun injuries (must be reported by law) minus successful attempts, documented homicides, and accidents. It should be an actual number but the government doesn't crunch those numbers.
Advocacy site but they reference their numbers . . . you may have to do some legwork.

Suicide attempts estimated 500,000 to 775,000 depending on the source. Then again your estimate of 2 million times handguns succesfully used in self defense per year is also an estimate . . . very dubious one in comparison. I've seen few successful suicides . . . 1 OD, 3 gunshot, and no clear single vehicle accidents. But I've seen plenty of attempts . . . primarily drugs, cuts, but 3 firearm as well.

Nor will owning a gun increase the chances that one will consider suicide. How about addressing the reason why people consider suicide in the first place instead of blaming the means they use to kill themselves?

Read the article better yet read the source research. The major conclusions of the authors is that we need to do a better job of identifying people that might attempt suicide, particularly those that will use violent means. That would greatly reduce suicide rates but as long as 3/5 choose firearms for successful attempts it makes sense to advocate practical (and Constitutional) means of limiting access . . . the best being to ask people not to keep and bear arms.

I'd like to see your source on the above statement. I notice the qualification "within your home" so I'm thinking the statement might be true in that way only (although I don't grant that without seeing the study).

The adjusted odds ratio for suicide risk against having a gun in the home is 4.8. This means that suicides occur almost 5 times more frequently in homes with guns than those without. New England Journal of Medicine

NEJM article on suicide and firearm purchase in CA

You can search and read abstracts but full text requires registration fee. Go to your local university's health affairs library if you want to do it on the cheap.

NEJM Public opinion about gun regulations including broad support from gun owners

 

[Squisher]

<<3) Males are four times more likely to die from suicide than are females. However, females are more likely to attempt suicide than are males.>>

Ahhah! We found another thing that men are better at. Along with writting our names in the snow.

 

[mikebb]

<< That would greatly reduce suicide rates but as long as 3/5 choose firearms for successful attempts it makes sense to advocate practical (and Constitutional) means of limiting access . . . the best being to ask people not to keep and bear arms. >>



So your logic would also dictate that the best way to keep drunk drivers off the road would be to "ask" ALL people not to drive?

 

[BaliBabyDoc]

When a girl has a problem everybody in the house knows about it, but the first time you find out that a boy has a problem is when the police bring him home.

Nice sig, Squisher. One concept in adolescent psychiatry is that a cry for help buys a girl a ticket to the inpatient ward but buys a boy a criminal record.

 

[glenn1]

<< But a young male (teen to early twenties), middle-aged male (45-60), or any household with children the balance favors no weapon or tightly controlled weapons. >>



The military is full of young males, ages teen to early twenties, who carry around loaded firearms every day, and suicide is hardly epidemic in that realm. If firearms are really such an evil influence on young male minds, why don't we see pictures on CNN every night of the latest guy from the 82nd Airborne or similar units to have done himself in with a firearm? Sorry to have put a dent in your nice, shiny theory, and i don't disagree with your conclusion (in many cases) that ammunition and firearms are well served to be kept seperated, but i don't see where it can be applied universally, or even necessarily in the general.

 

[docmanhattan]

<<

<< But a young male (teen to early twenties), middle-aged male (45-60), or any household with children the balance favors no weapon or tightly controlled weapons. >>



The military is full of young males, ages teen to early twenties, who carry around loaded firearms every day, and suicide is hardly epidemic in that realm. If firearms are really such an evil influence on young male minds, why don't we see pictures on CNN every night of the latest guy from the 82nd Airborne or similar units to have done himself in with a firearm? Sorry to have put a dent in your nice, shiny theory, and i don't disagree with your conclusion (in many cases) that ammunition and firearms are well served to be kept seperated, but i don't see where it can be applied universally, or even necessarily in the general. >>

Leave it to some people to turn this into a personal assault.

Far be it from anyone to point out that maybe, maybe guns aren't for everyone. Bali wasn't even suggesting so much as any thing regulatory. It would seem that there's good evidence to suggest that IF you have a troubled, adolescent male child, then maybe it's not such a keen idea to keep the guns and ammo in the same place together unlocked. At least not in any unsupervised situation. Is that fair statement witout people crying foul.

As far as the military is concerned, that is a very strict and regulated environment. Definitely not the same situation as in a civilian, suburban home.

 

[Maetryx]

FABLES, MYTHS & Other Tall Tales about Gun Laws, Crime and Constitutional Rights

 

[StageLeft]

<< I've heard home intruders will actually wait for you to get the ammo for your gun now if you ask nicely too. >>

I've also heard that seven year olds always listen to their father and follow his rules that they NOT play with his gun while he is out.

 

[StageLeft]

<<

<< It is more likely that a loaded unlocked weapon will precipitate injury than protect you from injury within your home. >>



I have loaded, unlocked weapons both at home and at work. The only "injury" that will EVER be precipitated will be upon the B&E specialist who violates my space. Said "injury" will be career ending. >>

That's because you're childless. Whether you agree with guns or not if you have children and a gun in your home irresponsibly placed there is a much higher chance of one of your kids dying from the gun than you stopping any home invasion.

 

[Russ]

<< That's because you're childless. >>



Actually, Skoorb, I'm not childless. You shouldn't make assumptions.

Russ, NCNE

 

[Zebo]

Bali,

Perhaps suicidal males are much more impulusive than thier famale counterparts thus choosing guns which are readily available and quickly employed rather than potassium chloride, prescription drugs or illicit drugs which take time and mg/kg calculations to be effective? Like males quick improvisional *thinking?* rather than carefull planning which females are noted for. Same goes for suicide.

Males would just find a quick implusive effective means other than the gun if it was inaccesable. Jumping off a freeway overpass, driving into opposing traffic etc. Unfortunatly most of these endanger others too.