Another good guy with a gun story.

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fskimospy

Elite Member
Mar 10, 2006
84,006
47,965
136
You're saying you don't think the phone survey was accurate?

Clearly not, the methodological problems are detailed in the paper you linked. Are you trying to say that because pro-gun people incompetently attempted to survey people that all surveys are invalid or something? That would be very stupid. Scientific polling is used the world over and is highly reliable when done correctly.

If you have a methodological argument against the way in which data was collected for the paper I linked though I’m all ears.
 

Sunburn74

Diamond Member
Oct 5, 2009
5,027
2,595
136
You're saying you don't think the phone survey was accurate?
Phone surveys are basically worthless for scientific purposes.

Assume there is a fixed truth to whatever question you are asking.

A phone survey will be off from that truth based on the following factors: you're sampling people with phones (not everyone) that happen to pickup (again not everyone) and you cannot verify at all what they say as true/false. This is assuming they are telling you their best version of the truth or their opinion as opposed to what they think you want to hear, or what they can remember in 10 seconds worth of recall, or what actually happened but are too embarrassed or afraid to report.
 

SlowSpyder

Lifer
Jan 12, 2005
17,305
1,001
126
Phone surveys are basically worthless for scientific purposes.

Assume there is a fixed truth to whatever question you are asking.

A phone survey will be off from that truth based on the following factors: you're sampling people with phones (not everyone) that happen to pickup (again not everyone) and you cannot verify at all what they say as true/false. This is assuming they are telling you their best version of the truth or their opinion as opposed to what they think you want to hear, or what they can remember in 10 seconds worth of recall, or what actually happened but are too embarrassed or afraid to report.


I don't disagree. I'm not the one championing phone surveys as a way to get real answers to difficult questions.
 
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Vic

Elite Member
Jun 12, 2001
50,415
14,305
136
You posted randomly in this thread with no context... geez guy...

I didn't say that guy was a good guy, I am saying (in that thread) that the law is bad and escalates and created that situation.

When have you ever cared about the law escalating a situation that resulted in the death of an unarmed person?
 

HomerJS

Lifer
Feb 6, 2002
36,051
27,782
136
Can I include the good black with a gun holding a crime suspect? The police show up and kill the good black guy with a gun.

Apparently the new slogan is a good white guy with a gun
 

Zorba

Lifer
Oct 22, 1999
14,532
9,907
136
Can I include the good black with a gun holding a crime suspect? The police show up and kill the good black guy with a gun.

Apparently the new slogan is a good white guy with a gun
I thought that was always understood, considering it is the NRA pushing the myth.
 

pmv

Lifer
May 30, 2008
13,045
7,974
136
There's a huge amount of evidence that suicide is often an impulsive spur-of-the-moment choice. It's an irrevocable decision that is greatly influenced by having immediate access to the means. This is why bans on sales of large quantities of non-prescription pain-killers have had an effect on suicide rates, even if intuitively one would think it strange that someone decides not to take their own life simply because they'd have to make multiple visits to pharmacists to get a sufficient number of pills. But people pop them because they are there in the medicine cabinet at a moment of crisis. I think its obvious the same is true of guns.

Ergo it's not at all surprising that having a gun in the house increases suicide rates. It's not that surprising either that the presence of a gun is going to escalate domestic violence incidents.

The question is what one makes of those facts. I don't think suicide deaths are the same thing as murders. Morally they are different and the basis for state intervention to prevent them is very different. The state is allowed to go much further in protecting people from others than in protecting people from their own bad choices. (To me, banning the sale of pain-killers in large packs is reasonable, because it barely inconveniences the majority, banning their non-prescription sale entirely would not be)

An individual might respond that they will be safer with a gun, because they aren't ever going to be suicidal or get into a murderous rage with a member of their own family. I'm not sure you can apply these stats to individuals, but they surely do have relevance at the level of public health policy?
 

Thump553

Lifer
Jun 2, 2000
12,673
2,425
126
There's a huge amount of evidence that suicide is often an impulsive spur-of-the-moment choice. It's an irrevocable decision that is greatly influenced by having immediate access to the means. This is why bans on sales of large quantities of non-prescription pain-killers have had an effect on suicide rates, even if intuitively one would think it strange that someone decides not to take their own life simply because they'd have to make multiple visits to pharmacists to get a sufficient number of pills. But people pop them because they are there in the medicine cabinet at a moment of crisis. I think its obvious the same is true of guns.

Ergo it's not at all surprising that having a gun in the house increases suicide rates. It's not that surprising either that the presence of a gun is going to escalate domestic violence incidents.

The question is what one makes of those facts. I don't think suicide deaths are the same thing as murders. Morally they are different and the basis for state intervention to prevent them is very different. The state is allowed to go much further in protecting people from others than in protecting people from their own bad choices. (To me, banning the sale of pain-killers in large packs is reasonable, because it barely inconveniences the majority, banning their non-prescription sale entirely would not be)

An individual might respond that they will be safer with a gun, because they aren't ever going to be suicidal or get into a murderous rage with a member of their own family. I'm not sure you can apply these stats to individuals, but they surely do have relevance at the level of public health policy?

Quite true about it being an impulsive act. I remember reading an article about that which pointed out in England a leading method of suicide was to swallow a large amount of a common OTC pain reliever. England changed it's regulations to require that OTC drug to be sold in blister packs only. You can still kill yourself with them, you just have to take a few minutes to punch them out of the blister packs. Suicide by that method fell (as expected) but also the overall rate of suicide fell.
 

SMOGZINN

Lifer
Jun 17, 2005
14,202
4,401
136
You're the only one that's confused. Gun owners, no matter why they choose to have a gun, are much more likely to die from a whole host of things, including traffic accidents and malpractice than they are of a gun shot. Full stop.

This is such a weird argument. Are you trying to say that guns are not dangerous? That is the only way your argument would make any sense.

I think we can all agree that a firearm is, by it's very nature, a dangerous object, and that being near a firearm increases your odds of being injured or killed. Once we agree to that I'm not sure you have an argument here.

How many people die from these different things is more of a function on how often people use them. If nearly everyone used a firearm several times a day like they do cars the death rate from firearm ownership would dwarf that of cars or malpractice on an epic scale.

The only argument that works here is that owning a gun is more likely to prevent injury or death than to cause it, and I don't think any of the science holds that as true, especially if we care about more than just the gun owner.