Another casualty of the war on drugs

Oct 16, 1999
10,490
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Not much to add, it's just another negative aspect of this failed, stupid war. It pisses me off that there is one simple solution to this entire mess and yet the issue is entirely ignored as yet another election cycle is goes by.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/200..._re_us/pot_environment

PORTERVILLE, Calif. - National forests and parks ? long popular with Mexican marijuana-growing cartels ? have become home to some of the most polluted pockets of wilderness in America because of the toxic chemicals needed to eke lucrative harvests from rocky mountainsides, federal officials said.

The grow sites have taken hold from the West Coast's Cascade Mountains, as well as on federal lands in Kentucky, Tennessee and West Virginia.

Seven hundred grow sites were discovered on U.S. Forest Service land in California alone in 2007 and 2008 ? and authorities say the 1,800-square-mile Sequoia National Forest is the hardest hit.

Weed and bug sprays, some long banned in the U.S., have been smuggled to the marijuana farms. Plant growth hormones have been dumped into streams, and the water has then been diverted for miles in PVC pipes.

Rat poison has been sprinkled over the landscape to keep animals away from tender plants. And many sites are strewn with the carcasses of deer and bears poached by workers during the five-month growing season that is now ending.

"What's going on on public lands is a crisis at every level," said Forest Service agent Ron Pugh. "These are America's most precious resources, and they are being devastated by an unprecedented commercial enterprise conducted by armed foreign nationals. It is a huge mess."

The first documented marijuana cartels were discovered in Sequoia National Park in 1998. Then, officials say, tighter border controls after Sept. 11, 2001, forced industrial-scale growers to move their operations into the United States.

Millions of dollars are spent every year to find and uproot marijuana-growing operations on state and federal lands, but federal officials say no money is budgeted to clean up the environmental mess left behind after helicopters carry off the plants. They are encouraged that Sen. Dianne Feinstein, D-Calif., who last year secured funding for eradication, has inquired about the pollution problems.

In the meantime, the only cleanup is done by volunteers. On Tuesday, the nonprofit High Sierra Trail Crew, founded to improve access to public lands, plans to take 30 people deep into the Sequoia National Forest to carry out miles of drip irrigation pipe, tons of human garbage, volatile propane canisters, and bags and bottles of herbicides and pesticides.

"If the people of California knew what was going on out there, they'd be up in arms about this," said Shane Krogen, the nonprofit's executive director. "Helicopters full of dope are like body counts in the Vietnam War. What does it really mean?"

Last year, law enforcement agents uprooted nearly five million plants in California, nearly a half million in Kentucky and 276,000 in Washington state as the development of hybrid plants has expanded the range of climates marijuana can tolerate.

"People light up a joint, and they have no idea the amount of environmental damage associated with it," said Cicely Muldoon, deputy regional director of the Pacific West Region of the National Park Service.

As of Sept. 2, more than 2.2 million plants had been uprooted statewide. The largest single bust in the nation this year netted 482,000 plants in the remote Sierra of Tulare County, the forest service said.

Some popular parks also have suffered damage. In 2007, rangers found more than 20,000 plants in Yosemite National Park and 43,000 plants in Sequoia Kings Canyon National Park, where 159 grow sites have been discovered over the past 10 years.

Agent Patrick Foy of the California Department of Fish and Game estimated that 1.5 pounds of fertilizers and pesticides is used for every 11.5 plants.

"I've seen the pesticide residue on the plants," Foy said. "You ain't just smoking pot, bud. You're smoking some heavy-duty pesticides from Mexico."

Scott Wanek, the western regional chief ranger for the National Park Service, said he believes the eradication efforts have touched only a small portion of the marijuana farms and that the environmental impact is much greater than anyone knows.

"Think about Sequoia," Wanek said. "The impact goes well beyond the acreage planted. They create huge networks of trail systems, and the chemicals that get into watersheds are potentially very far-reaching ? all the way to drinking water for the downstream communities. We are trying to study that now."
 

Fern

Elite Member
Sep 30, 2003
26,907
174
106
So, it's done by Mexican drug cartels and the problem has nothing to do with lax border controls?

Fern
 

bamacre

Lifer
Jul 1, 2004
21,029
2
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LOL, let me get this straight. Mexican drug cartels are growing marijuana inside the United States, on federal lands?

:laugh:

I really hate to laugh, but this is ridiculously absurd. How much money a year do we throw at fighting the "drug war?"

This drug war is really a perfect example of government in action. Totally inefficient, expensive, and completely ineffective.

This is the same government so many people want to do even more, the same government they want to manage health care.

And they wonder why the country is in shambles.
 

StageLeft

No Lifer
Sep 29, 2000
70,150
5
0
This drug war is really a perfect example of government in action. Totally inefficient, expensive, and completely ineffective.

This is the same government so many people want to do even more, the same government they want to manage health care.

And they wonder why the country is in shambles.
Watch a few interventions on A&E and you'll know why there is a drug war. Marijuana is a debateable topic, but no country would be wise to legalize any and all narcotics, as some would like to see this one do.
 

Lemon law

Lifer
Nov 6, 2005
20,984
3
0
As long as there is a demand, rascals will step up to fulfill it. Blaming the Mexicans may be a partial excuse, but it fails to target the real abuse.
 

frostedflakes

Diamond Member
Mar 1, 2005
7,925
1
81
Originally posted by: Skoorb
This drug war is really a perfect example of government in action. Totally inefficient, expensive, and completely ineffective.

This is the same government so many people want to do even more, the same government they want to manage health care.

And they wonder why the country is in shambles.
Watch a few interventions on A&E and you'll know why there is a drug war. Marijuana is a debateable topic, but no country would be wise to legalize any and all narcotics, as some would like to see this one do.
Probably getting off topic (not like the thread wouldn't have gone there anyways), but is marijuana really that bad? I don't think anybody is for the legalization of heroin, cocaine, etc., but marijuana seems to be relatively harmless. If it was legalized, it would put the drug cartels out of business and could be a huge source of tax revenue for the government.
 

Farang

Lifer
Jul 7, 2003
10,913
3
0
Originally posted by: Skoorb
This drug war is really a perfect example of government in action. Totally inefficient, expensive, and completely ineffective.

This is the same government so many people want to do even more, the same government they want to manage health care.

And they wonder why the country is in shambles.
Watch a few interventions on A&E and you'll know why there is a drug war. Marijuana is a debateable topic, but no country would be wise to legalize any and all narcotics, as some would like to see this one do.

I've watched a couple and still don't understand why.. obviously they are able to get the drugs anyway, and instead of facing treatment they face prosecution. They also needlessly go broke buying the drugs because of the inflated prices.
 

bamacre

Lifer
Jul 1, 2004
21,029
2
61
Originally posted by: Skoorb
This drug war is really a perfect example of government in action. Totally inefficient, expensive, and completely ineffective.

This is the same government so many people want to do even more, the same government they want to manage health care.

And they wonder why the country is in shambles.
Watch a few interventions on A&E and you'll know why there is a drug war. Marijuana is a debateable topic, but no country would be wise to legalize any and all narcotics, as some would like to see this one do.

Thanks for proving my point. :D
 

SigArms08

Member
Apr 16, 2008
181
0
0
Originally posted by: frostedflakes
Originally posted by: Skoorb
This drug war is really a perfect example of government in action. Totally inefficient, expensive, and completely ineffective.

This is the same government so many people want to do even more, the same government they want to manage health care.

And they wonder why the country is in shambles.
Watch a few interventions on A&E and you'll know why there is a drug war. Marijuana is a debateable topic, but no country would be wise to legalize any and all narcotics, as some would like to see this one do.
Probably getting off topic (not like the thread wouldn't have gone there anyways), but is marijuana really that bad? I don't think anybody is for the legalization of heroin, cocaine, etc., but marijuana seems to be relatively harmless. If it was legalized, it would put the drug cartels out of business and could be a huge source of tax revenue for the government.

Agreed, and isn't it true that if police have to intervene in a situation where people are "high", those individuals aren't rowdy.....unlike drunkin slobs (alcohol).

Bamacre hit the nail right on the head using this failure as an example of how government runs things (inefficient, expensive, etc).....then think of gov't healthcare. Good post, Bamacre!
 

CallMeJoe

Diamond Member
Jul 30, 2004
6,938
5
81
Originally posted by: frostedflakes
Originally posted by: Skoorb
This drug war is really a perfect example of government in action. Totally inefficient, expensive, and completely ineffective.

This is the same government so many people want to do even more, the same government they want to manage health care.

And they wonder why the country is in shambles.
Watch a few interventions on A&E and you'll know why there is a drug war. Marijuana is a debateable topic, but no country would be wise to legalize any and all narcotics, as some would like to see this one do.
Probably getting off topic (not like the thread wouldn't have gone there anyways), but is marijuana really that bad? I don't think anybody is for the legalization of heroin, cocaine, etc., but marijuana seems to be relatively harmless. If it was legalized, it would put the drug cartels out of business and could be a huge source of tax revenue for the government.
Legalization of marijuana would have little overall effect on the "drug cartels". MJ is bulky, relatively difficult to smuggle and not especially profitable (compared to other illicit drugs). To kill drug trafficking, opium, morphine, heroin, cocaine, methamphetamine, hallucinogens and other similar low-bulk high profit substances must be removed from prohibition. Prohibition works no better for drugs than it did for alcohol and carries the same social cost in the way of promoting criminal activity.
 

IronWing

No Lifer
Jul 20, 2001
72,408
32,989
136
Originally posted by: SigArms08
Originally posted by: frostedflakes
Originally posted by: Skoorb
This drug war is really a perfect example of government in action. Totally inefficient, expensive, and completely ineffective.

This is the same government so many people want to do even more, the same government they want to manage health care.

And they wonder why the country is in shambles.
Watch a few interventions on A&E and you'll know why there is a drug war. Marijuana is a debateable topic, but no country would be wise to legalize any and all narcotics, as some would like to see this one do.
Probably getting off topic (not like the thread wouldn't have gone there anyways), but is marijuana really that bad? I don't think anybody is for the legalization of heroin, cocaine, etc., but marijuana seems to be relatively harmless. If it was legalized, it would put the drug cartels out of business and could be a huge source of tax revenue for the government.

Agreed, and isn't it true that if police have to intervene in a situation where people are "high", those individuals aren't rowdy.....unlike drunkin slobs (alcohol).

Bamacre hit the nail right on the head using this failure as an example of how government runs things (inefficient, expensive, etc).....then think of gov't healthcare. Good post, Bamacre!

Except for the part about it making no sense whatsoever. The government fails in the drug war because it is engaging in an activity that should not be conducted, by anyone. Health insurance is a worthwhile endeavor where the private sector has failed and is an appropriate activity for government.
 

jimmyj68

Senior member
Mar 18, 2004
573
0
0
The first mistake made in this thread is in the original article cited - grow sites patrolled by "armed foreign nationals". If you think or believe that non-US folks are behind all of this you are sadly mistaken.

It has been shown over and over again that such large criminal enterprises cannot exist without the "management" of money grubbing citizens of the good ol' USA.
 

bamacre

Lifer
Jul 1, 2004
21,029
2
61
Originally posted by: ironwing
Except for the part about it making no sense whatsoever. The government fails in the drug war because it is engaging in an activity that should not be conducted, by anyone. Health insurance is a worthwhile endeavor where the private sector has failed and is an appropriate activity for government.

LOL, and I guess it would be you who gets to decide what is and what isn't appropriate activity in which our government can engage.

 

IronWing

No Lifer
Jul 20, 2001
72,408
32,989
136
Originally posted by: bamacre
Originally posted by: ironwing
Except for the part about it making no sense whatsoever. The government fails in the drug war because it is engaging in an activity that should not be conducted, by anyone. Health insurance is a worthwhile endeavor where the private sector has failed and is an appropriate activity for government.

LOL, and I guess it would be you who gets to decide what is and what isn't appropriate activity in which our government can engage.

I'm merely pointing out your silly attempt to connect an activity that was predestined to failure as somehow supporting your assertion that government run health insurance is also destined to to the same fate, ignoring that government run health insurance has been a raging success throughout the industrialized world.
 

bamacre

Lifer
Jul 1, 2004
21,029
2
61
Originally posted by: ironwing
Originally posted by: bamacre
Originally posted by: ironwing
Except for the part about it making no sense whatsoever. The government fails in the drug war because it is engaging in an activity that should not be conducted, by anyone. Health insurance is a worthwhile endeavor where the private sector has failed and is an appropriate activity for government.

LOL, and I guess it would be you who gets to decide what is and what isn't appropriate activity in which our government can engage.

I'm merely pointing out your silly attempt to connect an activity that was predestined to failure as somehow supporting your assertion that government run health insurance is also destined to to the same fate, ignoring that government run health insurance has been a raging success throughout the industrialized world.

A raging success, huh? :D
 

Farang

Lifer
Jul 7, 2003
10,913
3
0
Originally posted by: bamacre
Originally posted by: ironwing
Originally posted by: bamacre
Originally posted by: ironwing
Except for the part about it making no sense whatsoever. The government fails in the drug war because it is engaging in an activity that should not be conducted, by anyone. Health insurance is a worthwhile endeavor where the private sector has failed and is an appropriate activity for government.

LOL, and I guess it would be you who gets to decide what is and what isn't appropriate activity in which our government can engage.

I'm merely pointing out your silly attempt to connect an activity that was predestined to failure as somehow supporting your assertion that government run health insurance is also destined to to the same fate, ignoring that government run health insurance has been a raging success throughout the industrialized world.

A raging success, huh? :D

AAAAAAAAARRrrrrrrrrrrrrrgGGgggGGGGGGGGGHHHHHhhhHHH!!! LOOK AT ME! ARRRRrrRRGHGH!!! I AM A SUCCESS!!!
 

theflyingpig

Banned
Mar 9, 2008
5,616
18
0
The government should give me a few billion to stop the flow of drugs into the US. I guarantee I could do it.
 

shira

Diamond Member
Jan 12, 2005
9,500
6
81
Originally posted by: SkoorbWatch a few interventions on A&E and you'll know why there is a drug war. Marijuana is a debateable topic, but no country would be wise to legalize any and all narcotics, as some would like to see this one do.
Only idiots don't look at both sides of the equation. Yes, drugs cause direct harm to people. But the question is: Does the war on drugs cause greater harm? The answer is clearly yes.

Prohibition was ended because rational people realized that the cost to society of maintaining the black market for alcohol hugely outweighed any negatives associated with alcohol consumption.

The same calculation for marijuana, cocaine, opiates, psilocybin, psychoactive alkaloids (such as peyote), and perhaps the benzodiazepines makes it overwhelmining clear that keeping these drugs illegal is vastly more harmful to society than the negative effects of these drugs on users.

How can it be that several U.S. states celebrate their lack of helmet laws for motorcycle riders in the name of individual liberty, yet severely punish drug use?

A true leader would empty the prisons of drug-related criminals, legalize use, regulate potency and purity, license sales operations, and tax the sh!t out of the stuff. For those who can't afford it, give it away and/or sell at a subsidized rate.

Overnight, there'd be no drug-gang turf wars. Thousands of drug-related murders would be avoided each year, and burglaries by addicts needing to fund a habit would be eliminated. There'd by no despoiled national forests. There'd be no accidental overdoses. There's be no more cops corrupted by drug criminals. We'd free up our court system, there'd be 1 million vacancies in jails and prisons, and we'd have no more lives ruined in the name of protecting people from themselves. We'd gain at least $50 billion a year in revenue, of which half could be devoted to free drug treatment and anti-drug advertising. And with so many drugs legal and cheap, the demand for truly dangerous drugs (PCP, LSD, and meth, for example) that would remain illegal would probably evaporate

Yes, there's be more addicts and more damaged bodies. That sucks. Too bad. We already let people destroy their bodies with alcohol and tobacco, and those no-helmet laws allow people to scramble their own brains. So what's the difference? And with so much money available for free drug-treatment, addicts would MUCH more easily be able to find treatment programs than is currently the case.

This is all so obvious and such a no-brainer, it truly sickens me to see the same know-nothing, anti-pleasure, nanny-state puritanism and the same suicidal results year after year after year.
 

IronWing

No Lifer
Jul 20, 2001
72,408
32,989
136
Originally posted by: theflyingpig
The government should give me a few billion to stop the flow of drugs into the US. I guarantee I could do it.

Within the confines of the Constitution?
 

BoberFett

Lifer
Oct 9, 1999
37,562
9
81
Originally posted by: frostedflakes
I don't think anybody is for the legalization of heroin, cocaine, etc...

Then you'd be wrong because you're a small minded fool. Plenty of people are for legalization of those as well. We'd spend far less money treating the symptoms of those drugs as addictions rather than fighting a bloody war that we're not even winning.

 

GeezerMan

Platinum Member
Jan 28, 2005
2,146
26
91
Originally posted by: BoberFett
Originally posted by: frostedflakes
I don't think anybody is for the legalization of heroin, cocaine, etc...

Then you'd be wrong because you're a small minded fool. Plenty of people are for legalization of those as well. We'd spend far less money treating the symptoms of those drugs as addictions rather than fighting a bloody war that we're not even winning.

Now wait a minute. I anticipate a breakthrough in the War on Drugs, or as I call it, the War on Human Nature, any minute now. You guys are too impatient. After all, the war was officially named in 1971, so only 37 years or so, and look how much progress has been made.

The reality is it's big business for everyone. Honest enforcers want to keep their jobs and big bureaucracy going, and dishonest ones want to keep the drug cash flowing, and private prisons, paid by the number of occupants, want to keep their cells full of addicts to get their pay.

Want a good overview? Go watch the American Drug War, as seen on Showtime .Link