Announcement by Bush of troop withdrawal

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1EZduzit

Lifer
Feb 4, 2002
11,834
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Originally posted by: TastesLikeChicken

Are you trying to claim that there was no sectarian violence before the Sammara mosque was destroyed?

btw, who blew it up? Wasn't it AQI who was blamed? How would that even qualify as "sectarian" in the first place? AQI are Sunni.


Originally posted by: TastesLikeChicken
While you imagine you know what you're talking about it has become crystal clear that you don't.

Oh, btw, I didn't say a thing as to the affiliation of the Golden Mosque. I know very well it's Shiite. But you keep making stupid and completely incorrect assumptions about what I know and what I've done, and that's why you're boring the holy hell out me.

Thanks.

LMAO, your so full of shit your turning my blue eyes brown. :laugh:

BUSH: When I addressed you just over a year ago, nearly 12 million Iraqis had cast their ballots for a unified and democratic nation. The elections of 2005 were a stunning achievement. We thought that these elections would bring the Iraqis together, and that as we trained Iraqi security forces we could accomplish our mission with fewer American troops.

But in 2006, the opposite happened. The violence in Iraq -- particularly in Baghdad -- overwhelmed the political gains the Iraqis had made. Al Qaeda terrorists and Sunni insurgents recognized the mortal danger that Iraq's elections posed for their cause, and they responded with outrageous acts of murder aimed at innocent Iraqis. They blew up one of the holiest shrines in Shia Islam -- the Golden Mosque of Samarra -- in a calculated effort to provoke Iraq's Shia population to retaliate. Their strategy worked. Radical Shia elements, some supported by Iran, formed death squads. And the result was a vicious cycle of sectarian violence that continues today.

GMA's Cuomo echoed false Bush claim that Samarra bombing "touched off the sectarian bloodletting" in Iraq

 

fskimospy

Elite Member
Mar 10, 2006
83,614
47,222
136
Originally posted by: TastesLikeChicken
Think about it like this. Why did AQI blow up the mosque in the first place? They hoped to spark widespread sectarian violence. The act itself was not an act of sectarian violence, it was a calculated act of AQI trying to pit one side against the other. It was a powerplay for AQI, though ultimately it was one of stupidest moves they could have made because that's when they plainly began attacking other Muslims and showing their true colors; that their goal has nothing to do with Islam and everything to do with power and control.

Maybe our difference is that you tend to think in terms of direct cause and effect while I think a bit more abstractly about the motivations behind the events? That's why I believe you're not nearly as sharp as you claim to be. Sure, you know the superficial facts of the matter but you seem to disregard the deeper human motivation. AQI bombed the mosque primarily out of their lust for power/control and not because of the sectarian issue. Power was the motivation for the bombing. Sectarian violence was the effect they hoped to achieve.

Do you see what I am saying or do I need to explain this even further to you?

Lets keep this quote up there:

btw, who blew it up? Wasn't it AQI who was blamed? How would that even qualify as "sectarian" in the first place? AQI are Sunni.

Sorry, if that had been your intention you wouldn't have dismissed it as not sectarian due to Al Qaeda's Sunni affiliation. Just admit it... you didn't know what you were talking about.

I'm not going to bother with your other crap that isn't germane to what we were discussing and I won't have one of these meandering debates with you while you shop around for a topic you think you can win on.

It is very telling to me however that you view the sectarian affiliation of the Golden Mosque as a 'superficial' fact. This explains a lot.
 
Sep 12, 2004
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Originally posted by: eskimospy
Originally posted by: TastesLikeChicken
Think about it like this. Why did AQI blow up the mosque in the first place? They hoped to spark widespread sectarian violence. The act itself was not an act of sectarian violence, it was a calculated act of AQI trying to pit one side against the other. It was a powerplay for AQI, though ultimately it was one of stupidest moves they could have made because that's when they plainly began attacking other Muslims and showing their true colors; that their goal has nothing to do with Islam and everything to do with power and control.

Maybe our difference is that you tend to think in terms of direct cause and effect while I think a bit more abstractly about the motivations behind the events? That's why I believe you're not nearly as sharp as you claim to be. Sure, you know the superficial facts of the matter but you seem to disregard the deeper human motivation. AQI bombed the mosque primarily out of their lust for power/control and not because of the sectarian issue. Power was the motivation for the bombing. Sectarian violence was the effect they hoped to achieve.

Do you see what I am saying or do I need to explain this even further to you?

Lets keep this quote up there:

btw, who blew it up? Wasn't it AQI who was blamed? How would that even qualify as "sectarian" in the first place? AQI are Sunni.

Sorry, if that had been your intention you wouldn't have dismissed it as not sectarian due to Al Qaeda's Sunni affiliation. Just admit it... you didn't know what you were talking about.

I'm not going to bother with your other crap that isn't germane to what we were discussing and I won't have one of these meandering debates with you while you shop around for a topic you think you can win on.

It is very telling to me however that you view the sectarian affiliation of the Golden Mosque as a 'superficial' fact. This explains a lot.
Yeah, it explains a lot. :roll: Except you don't explain squat.

Answer this question. Did AQI blow up the golden dome purely as some religious vendetta against Shiites, or did they have other motivations behind doing so? And in case you try to weasel out of that question or dance around it, I'll ask you very directly:

Did NOT AQI blow it up to foment sectarian violence between Shiites and Sunnis? If so, what was their purpose by fomenting that violence? What would they gain? Was their actions have to do with trying to gain power and control, or was it all about the Great Schism?
 
Sep 12, 2004
16,852
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Originally posted by: 1EZduzit
Hmm, I guess TLC is just too "bored" with us to bother with further explantion? ;)
I'm guessing you're an impatient little troll? Either that or you don't have a woman in your life. Some of us do yah know. Don't be a hater.
 

1EZduzit

Lifer
Feb 4, 2002
11,834
1
0
Originally posted by: TastesLikeChicken
Originally posted by: 1EZduzit
Hmm, I guess TLC is just too "bored" with us to bother with further explantion? ;)
I'm guessing you're an impatient little troll? Either that or you don't have a woman in your life. Some of us do yah know. Don't be a hater.

Oh we all know the only good fucking you get is here on the interent. ;)
 

fskimospy

Elite Member
Mar 10, 2006
83,614
47,222
136
Originally posted by: TastesLikeChicken
Yeah, it explains a lot. :roll: Except you don't explain squat.

Answer this question. Did AQI blow up the golden dome purely as some religious vendetta against Shiites, or did they have other motivations behind doing so? And in case you try to weasel out of that question or dance around it, I'll ask you very directly:

Did NOT AQI blow it up to foment sectarian violence between Shiites and Sunnis? If so, what was their purpose by fomenting that violence? What would they gain? Was their actions have to do with trying to gain power and control, or was it all about the Great Schism?

I completely agree, Al Qaeda blew up the mosque for the same reasons that they blow up markets, etc, etc. They are doing it to forment religious conflict in Iraq... and its currently a large contributor to what is going on. They do so to forment chaos to impede the functioning of Iraq's government and in an attempt to thwart the US mission there. Everyone knows that.

The only problem is that I wasn't talking about the motivations of Al Qaeda... at any point. I was talking about the civil conflict in Iraq. In fact, I never said a word until you mentioned:
The only religious war I'm aware of is the one the jihadis are fighting against the west.

That's when I called BS on you, and you spent the next good bit denying that religion had anything to do with the conflict going on between factions in Iraq. It is extremely funny to me that you now mention Al Qaeda's specific intent was to cause what you claim doesn't exist. Did they simply fail to do so? Is Al Qaeda incompetant because they don't understand the nature of Iraqi sectarian tensions like you do and should have realized that religion isn't the important thing here?

I believe you are arguing based on what you wish I said as opposed to what I actually said. I said numerous times that there are many factors in the civil conflict there, but it's impossible to discount the strife that has origins in religious identification going back a long ways which is a significant contributor to it. Unfortunately, you then started flailing around and pulling out facts that you didn't understand, and didn't check out closely enough before you tried to act like you knew what you were talking about. That's when it went from a discussion where you were merely wrong to one where I could have a good time kicking you around.

Again, I highly recommend checking your facts in the future before attempting to speak with authority. It appears your baseline level of knowledge about this region is fairly low, but I can assure you mine is not. I am by no means a subject matter expert, but I do know enough to call someone like you out.
 

DangerAardvark

Diamond Member
Oct 22, 2004
7,581
0
0
Originally posted by: Pabster
Originally posted by: LegendKiller
Won't setting timetables embolden the terrorists and aid them in their struggle?

Yes, which is why a concrete date is not being set.


Haha, someone actually believes the "emboldening" line! Glad to see people are still pushing the cutting edge of stupidity. I look forward to future advances in this promising line of hilarity.
 
Sep 12, 2004
16,852
59
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Originally posted by: eskimospy
Originally posted by: TastesLikeChicken
Yeah, it explains a lot. :roll: Except you don't explain squat.

Answer this question. Did AQI blow up the golden dome purely as some religious vendetta against Shiites, or did they have other motivations behind doing so? And in case you try to weasel out of that question or dance around it, I'll ask you very directly:

Did NOT AQI blow it up to foment sectarian violence between Shiites and Sunnis? If so, what was their purpose by fomenting that violence? What would they gain? Was their actions have to do with trying to gain power and control, or was it all about the Great Schism?

I completely agree, Al Qaeda blew up the mosque for the same reasons that they blow up markets, etc, etc. They are doing it to forment religious conflict in Iraq... and its currently a large contributor to what is going on. They do so to forment chaos to impede the functioning of Iraq's government and in an attempt to thwart the US mission there. Everyone knows that.

The only problem is that I wasn't talking about the motivations of Al Qaeda... at any point. I was talking about the civil conflict in Iraq. In fact, I never said a word until you mentioned:
The only religious war I'm aware of is the one the jihadis are fighting against the west.
The primary reason al Qaeda is in Iraq is because of their war against the west and the fact that they do not want to see the US suceed in Iraq. So it's a bit difficult to seperate AQ and the Iraq conflict.

That's when I called BS on you, and you spent the next good bit denying that religion had anything to do with the conflict going on between factions in Iraq. It is extremely funny to me that you now mention Al Qaeda's specific intent was to cause what you claim doesn't exist. Did they simply fail to do so? Is Al Qaeda incompetant because they don't understand the nature of Iraqi sectarian tensions like you do and should have realized that religion isn't the important thing here?

I believe you are arguing based on what you wish I said as opposed to what I actually said. I said numerous times that there are many factors in the civil conflict there, but it's impossible to discount the strife that has origins in religious identification going back a long ways which is a significant contributor to it. Unfortunately, you then started flailing around and pulling out facts that you didn't understand, and didn't check out closely enough before you tried to act like you knew what you were talking about. That's when it went from a discussion where you were merely wrong to one where I could have a good time kicking you around.

Again, I highly recommend checking your facts in the future before attempting to speak with authority. It appears your baseline level of knowledge about this region is fairly low, but I can assure you mine is not. I am by no means a subject matter expert, but I do know enough to call someone like you out.
Now you're actually agreeing with what I said. Sure, religious identification is involved, but it's merely used as a dividing line to create an 'Us vs them' situation. It's a convenient way of dividing and conquering. However the actual religious differences themselves are not the motivation for the conflict between the Shia and Sunni in Iraq. Ultimately that conflict boils down to the lust for power by al Qaeda (who see a power vacuum and want to fill it), by the Sunni (who are bitter they no longer control Iraq), and the Shia (who are seeking retribution for decades of oppression).

Why would AQ bomb a mosque to get the Shia pissed at the Sunni, who are a minority in Iraq, and watch the Sunni get their ever-lovin ass kicked? Why would AQ want to sacrifice the Sunni, members of their own sectarian alignment? It would make no sense to do if their actions were based on religious motivations.