Annan: We must define terrorism

Ozoned

Diamond Member
Mar 22, 2004
5,578
0
0
Link

Annan: We must define terrorism
By HERB KEINON AND AP




UN Secretary General Kofi Annan unveils his new report and list of reforms, titled, "In Larger Freedom: Towards Security, Development and Human Rights for All," at the General Assembly at U.N. headquarters



Secretary-General Kofi Annan urged world leaders Monday to adopt the boldest changes to the United Nations in its 60-year history, including defining terrorism as an attack on all civilians, saying they were essential to tackle global threats in the 21st century.

In a speech to the 191-member UN General Assembly, Annan called for the adoption of his entire reform package at a summit of world leaders in September and warned countries against treating the list of proposals "as an a la carte menu, and select only those that you especially fancy."

But getting leaders to agree on the package won't be easy because many countries have opposing views on issues ranging from reform of the UN Security Council and the creation of a new human rights council to increasing development assistance to poor countries.

Annan said the debate that has waged for years in the UN over the definition of terrorism, and which has kept the world body from adopting a comprehensive convention against terrorism, must end, and that all countries must accept that resisting occupation "cannot include the right to deliberately kill or maim civilians." He called for the adoption of a convention by September 2006 with terrorism defined as any act "intended to cause death or serious bodily harm to civilians or noncombatants with the purpose of intimidating a population or compelling a government or an international organization to do or abstain from doing any act."

Israeli officials welcomed that development, with Ronny Leshno Yaar, the Foreign Ministry's deputy director-general for the UN and International Organizations, saying this is the "beginning of a change in the way the international community regards terror." He stressed, however, that "we are not there yet. There is still a long way to go."

Leshno Yaar said this type of definition would represent a significant step toward delegitimizing terror. Because of 9/11, the attacks in Europe and ongoing attacks in Iraq, the Western world is beginning to wake up to the fact that terrorism is a threat to them, he said. He said Annan should be congratulated on this new approach.

The timing of Annan's appeal for UN reform also raised some questions, coming just before former US Federal Reserve Chairman Paul Volcker releases the results of an investigation into the activities of Annan and his son, Kojo, in relation to the scandal-ridden UN oil-for-food program in Iraq. Kojo Annan worked in Africa for a company that had an oil-for-food contract.

The scandal is one of several that have dogged the world body this year. Sex abuse by peacekeeping troops in Congo and the resignation of the UN refugee chief amid sexual harassment charges have also tainted the UN's image.

Mark Malloch Brown, the secretary-general's chief of staff, dismissed media comments that Annan's report was "a panicked response" to the UN's problems.

"Look at it as the secretary-general refusing to be distracted," he said.

Annan is proposing the most extensive overhaul of the world body since it was founded in 1945. His reform package calls for a realignment of the United Nations to give additional weight to key development, security and human rights issues. It also sets out plans to make the world body more efficient, open and accountable ? including strengthening the independence and authority of the UN's internal watchdog.

Volcker's report on the secretary-general and his son is expected by the end of March, but Annan is operating on the belief that he will be cleared

Volcker's final report is expected in mid-year.

"These are reforms that are within reach ? reforms that are actionable if we can garner the necessary political will," Annan said in the introduction to the report, which was released Sunday. It called 2005 "a historic opportunity" to create a better life for millions of people.

In the report, he urged the leaders to "act boldly" and adopt "the most far-reaching reforms in the history of the United Nations." Asked at a news conference Monday how he thought the United States would respond to the report, Annan said he hoped all countries would find its suggestions in their interests.

"I think there are many things in the report that should please many states, including the United States," he told reporters. "You have to understand that we have 191 member states and I was dealing with the problems of all regions."

Presenting the report Monday in the General Assembly, Annan said, "In any such list of proposals, there are items which seem more important to some than to others, and items about which some have reservations, while others consider them essential." Appealing for support for the entire package, he urged all countries to remember "that if you need the help of other states to achieve your objectives, you must also be willing to help them achieve their objectives." One of the major proposals in the package calls for a new Human Rights Council as a major UN organ ? possibly on par with the Security Council ? to replace the Geneva-based Commission on Human Rights (UNCHR). That panel has long faced criticism for allowing the worst-offending countries to use their membership to protect one another from condemnation.

"The creation of the council would accord human rights a more authoritative position," and put it on the same level as security and development, Annan said.

This move was also applauded by the Foreign Ministry's Leshno Yaar, who just returned from attending the annual UNCHR meeting in Geneva.

"There is no question that what is taking place in Geneva has nothing to do with the real world," he said. "Small and isolated countries are victims of the commission, whereas big and strong countries never get attention. Leshno Yaar said UNCHR work regarding Israel was "unfair and unbalanced, and doesn't reflect the situation on the ground. It totally ignores violations on the Palestinian side."

Annan also called for an expansion of the 15-member UN Security Council to reflect global realities, but he left the details to the General Assembly. He urged its 191 members to decide on a plan before the September summit, preferably by consensus, but if that's impossible, by a vote.

Annan backed two options proposed in December by a high-level panel. One would add six new permanent members to the Security Council and the other would create a new tier of eight semipermanent members: two each from Asia, Africa, Europe and the Americas. He left open the possibility of other ideas.

Leshno Yaar said the Security Council certainly "deserves a fresh look." But, he added, this process was just beginning, and Israel would "continue to study the recommendations and engage in consultations before making its position public." The report said the Security Council already had the authority under the UN Charter to use military force, even in a preventative manner, but it should adopt a resolution specifying the criteria for decisions on whether to use force.

The criteria should include the seriousness of the threat, whether non-military action could stop it, and whether there is a reasonable chance that military action would succeed.

In cases of genocide, ethnic cleansing, and crimes against humanity, Annan urged all states to accept that there was a "responsibility to protect" those being killed, which requires collective action.

The secretary-general also urged all rich countries to establish a timetable to reach the goal set 35 years ago of earmarking 0.7 percent of gross national product for development assistance no later than 2015, starting with a significant increase no later than 2006. The US currently has one of the lowest levels ? about 0.15 percent.

When you define what terrorism is, you inadvertently define what terrorism is not. We do not need loopholes for those that choose terrorism as their political weapon of choice. We certainly do not need an International body to create and endorse the loopholes that could be created.

At least that's what I think.

Thoughts?




 

novon

Diamond Member
Oct 9, 1999
3,711
0
0
War is terrorism. Bombs dropped from an airplane are no different than those strapped to terrorist, they both kill. It's the reason behind the violence that important - it must only be used as a last resort for humanitarian reasons (like Rawanda).

There must be a defenition for the reasons behind war, so we don't kill 100,000 innocent people over oil and a false premise of WMDs.
 

sandorski

No Lifer
Oct 10, 1999
70,564
6,110
126
Terms need to be defined, otherwise they lose all meaning. Not trying to sound all fancy schmancy about it, but if terms are used willy nilly(as Terrorism is now) in time people will just roll their eyes when used in the future, because everyone and his dog will be labeled "terrorist" by someone somewhere.
 
Sep 12, 2004
16,852
59
86
Considering Annan and the UN have refused for years to define "terrorism," this is surely something new on their part.

Plan on plenty of disagreement on the definition though.
 

lanche

Member
Mar 21, 2005
37
0
0
In light of oil for food scandal, annan knows he better start backtracking and smooching some butts. He"ll most likely be exhonerated probably as a result of throwing his son under the bus.

Either way the guy still talks out of the side of his neck.
 

SuperTool

Lifer
Jan 25, 2000
14,000
2
0
They are not going to agree on definition, I can guarantee you that. One man's terrorist is another man's insurgent.
 

DaveSimmons

Elite Member
Aug 12, 2001
40,730
670
126
Originally posted by: lanche
In light of oil for food scandal, annan knows he better start backtracking and smooching some butts. He"ll most likely be exhonerated probably as a result of throwing his son under the bus.

Either way the guy still talks out of the side of his neck.
Yes, I was going to suggest that we hand him a mirror and have him define "corruption" first.

(Of course he's probably quick-witted enough to hand it back and say "after you" :) )
 

raildogg

Lifer
Aug 24, 2004
12,892
572
126
Originally posted by: SuperTool
They are not going to agree on definition, I can guarantee you that. One man's terrorist is another man's insurgent.

Many in Europe and elsewhere view the Chechnyan terrorists as freedom fighters. I'm sure you disagree with that notion.
 
Feb 24, 2001
14,513
4
81
Originally posted by: raildogg
Originally posted by: SuperTool
They are not going to agree on definition, I can guarantee you that. One man's terrorist is another man's insurgent.

Many in Europe and elsewhere view the Chechnyan terrorists as freedom fighters. I'm sure you disagree with that notion.

If fire fighters fight fire, and crime fighters fight crime, what do freedom fighters fight?
 

Kibbo

Platinum Member
Jul 13, 2004
2,847
0
0
There is a proposed definition.

It's something like action that deliberately targets cilvilians for the purposes influencing political behaviour, or something like that. What's interesting is that it makes no distinction between state and non-state actors. This means that intentional civilian casualties by militaries count as terrorism, if they have a political motivation.
 

novon

Diamond Member
Oct 9, 1999
3,711
0
0
crime and fire are negatives, freedom is positive, they fight for freedom
 

raildogg

Lifer
Aug 24, 2004
12,892
572
126
Originally posted by: novon
crime and fire are negatives, freedom is positive, they fight for freedom

You can never legitimize terrorism. They are killing innocent civilians for their kind of "freedom". They lose all legitimacy once they purposely kill innocent civilians, anywhere in the world. People like you encourage these sorts of people by voicing your support for them. Al-qaeda is a freedom fighting organization according some radicals, but most decent people know that it clearly is not. Some also view the Chechnyan Islamic radicals as freedom fighters, but tell that to the thousands of Russians they have murdered over the years. I could mention different regions and the terrorists associated with it.

You sir, are extremely arrogant and have no respect for the millions of people killed by these "freedom fighters". They are terrorists, not 'freedom fighters".

Different countries of the UN have different motives based on their experiences with terrorism. Russia might have a different take on it than Iceland, for example. Everyone has a motive and everyone is looking for their own interests.
 

SuperTool

Lifer
Jan 25, 2000
14,000
2
0
Originally posted by: raildogg
Originally posted by: SuperTool
They are not going to agree on definition, I can guarantee you that. One man's terrorist is another man's insurgent.

Many in Europe and elsewhere view the Chechnyan terrorists as freedom fighters. I'm sure you disagree with that notion.

Well, that's exactly it. US and Russia views them as terrorists, but many in the Middle East and Europe view Russia as a brutal occupier and the Chechens as freedom fighters and victims.
 

glenn1

Lifer
Sep 6, 2000
25,383
1,013
126
There is a proposed definition.

It's something like action that deliberately targets cilvilians for the purposes influencing political behaviour, or something like that. What's interesting is that it makes no distinction between state and non-state actors. This means that intentional civilian casualties by militaries count as terrorism, if they have a political motivation.

Proposed? I daresay that's the definition that's been in common useage since the term was coined. To define terrorism you only need look at intent. Any violent act with civilians as the primary target, or a determination they were ancillary targets when there was a deliberate and reckless disregard for measures being taken to minimize the danger to them.
 

raildogg

Lifer
Aug 24, 2004
12,892
572
126
Originally posted by: SuperTool
Is firebombing of Dresden and Hiroshima terrorism?

No, since the countries were at war and those cities were considered as strategic targets. Great Britain and America purposely dropped incendieries to destroy those cities. We basically burned them down.

This was a huge blow to already weakened Germany and Japan. Great Britain pioneered firebombing when their Lancaster bombers first used incendieries over Dresden. Then we followed and destroyed Japan with our night raids over large Japanese cities.

That saved countless British and American lives and in the end, saved German and Japanese lives.

Russian soldiers looted, destroyed German cities and killed raped Germans on massive proportions. The same applied to the Germans when they invaded Russia. In fact, Russia lost far more civilians than any other country during that war, mainly at the hands of Germany. Russia played a key role in weakening Germany and cutting off its supply routes.

A declared war between countries is different than terrorists claiming a piece of territory and killing civilians over it.
 

Ozoned

Diamond Member
Mar 22, 2004
5,578
0
0
A clear definition of terrorism does not exist, and Ultimately defining it would be akin to defining beauty.

Terrorism is an Ideology, a military tactic, a political weapon, a torture of the human emotion of fear, and so much more.

It is in the eye of the beholder to define it.

 

SuperTool

Lifer
Jan 25, 2000
14,000
2
0
Originally posted by: raildogg
Originally posted by: SuperTool
Is firebombing of Dresden and Hiroshima terrorism?

No, since the countries were at war and those cities were considered as strategic targets. Great Britain and America purposely dropped incendieries to destroy those cities. We basically burned them down.

This was a huge blow to already weakened Germany and Japan. Great Britain pioneered firebombing when their Lancaster bombers first used incendieries over Dresden. Then we followed and destroyed Japan with our night raids over large Japanese cities.

That saved countless British and American lives and in the end, saved German and Japanese lives.

Russian soldiers looted, destroyed German cities and killed raped Germans on massive proportions. The same applied to the Germans when they invaded Russia. In fact, Russia lost far more civilians than any other country during that war, mainly at the hands of Germany. Russia played a key role in weakening Germany and cutting off its supply routes.

A declared war between countries is different than terrorists claiming a piece of territory and killing civilians over it.

So killing civilians is OK if it's for a greater good?
 

raildogg

Lifer
Aug 24, 2004
12,892
572
126
Originally posted by: SuperTool
Originally posted by: raildogg
Originally posted by: SuperTool
Is firebombing of Dresden and Hiroshima terrorism?

No, since the countries were at war and those cities were considered as strategic targets. Great Britain and America purposely dropped incendieries to destroy those cities. We basically burned them down.

This was a huge blow to already weakened Germany and Japan. Great Britain pioneered firebombing when their Lancaster bombers first used incendieries over Dresden. Then we followed and destroyed Japan with our night raids over large Japanese cities.

That saved countless British and American lives and in the end, saved German and Japanese lives.

Russian soldiers looted, destroyed German cities and killed raped Germans on massive proportions. The same applied to the Germans when they invaded Russia. In fact, Russia lost far more civilians than any other country during that war, mainly at the hands of Germany. Russia played a key role in weakening Germany and cutting off its supply routes.

A declared war between countries is different than terrorists claiming a piece of territory and killing civilians over it.

So killing civilians is OK if it's for a greater good?

That was the way things were done by all countries back then. Human life wasn't as regarded as valuable back then as it is today.

No, killing civilians is not ok. But when there is a war between countries, things get a bit out of hand. Our enemies were fanatical and even though their militaries were weakened, they still killed thousands of Allied soldiers during the last phase of WW2. We took drastic actions to break the will of the enemy to fight on and we were successful, by and large. The Japanese still wouldn't give up after Tokyo and other large cities were destroyed and we dropped a nuke on them.

The two nukes we dropped on Japan, was that an act of terrorism?

Not in my eye. We saved countless American lives and probably millions of Japanese lives who were fanatical and would have fought till death. We also realized the destructiveness of a nuke and not a single nuke has been used since. War is hell and civilians are killed. There hasn't been a war where a civilian hasn't been killed, whether intentionaly or unintentionally.
 

kylebisme

Diamond Member
Mar 25, 2000
9,396
0
0
According to popular British opinion of the day, our founding fathers were terrorists.
 

kogase

Diamond Member
Sep 8, 2004
5,213
0
0
Okay, from m-w.com:

Main Entry: ter·ror·ism
Pronunciation: 'ter-&r-"i-z&m
Function: noun
: the systematic use of terror especially as a means of coercion
- ter·ror·ist /-&r-ist/ adjective or noun
- ter·ror·is·tic /"ter-&r-'is-tik/ adjective


So, from the definition one is led to believe that it is only terrorism if an attack is a significantly advanced member of a sequence of attacks. It doesn't mention anything about civilians.
 

novon

Diamond Member
Oct 9, 1999
3,711
0
0
Originally posted by: raildogg
Originally posted by: novon
crime and fire are negatives, freedom is positive, they fight for freedom

You can never legitimize terrorism. They are killing innocent civilians for their kind of "freedom". They lose all legitimacy once they purposely kill innocent civilians, anywhere in the world. People like you encourage these sorts of people by voicing your support for them. Al-qaeda is a freedom fighting organization according some radicals, but most decent people know that it clearly is not. Some also view the Chechnyan Islamic radicals as freedom fighters, but tell that to the thousands of Russians they have murdered over the years. I could mention different regions and the terrorists associated with it.

You sir, are extremely arrogant and have no respect for the millions of people killed by these "freedom fighters". They are terrorists, not 'freedom fighters".

Different countries of the UN have different motives based on their experiences with terrorism. Russia might have a different take on it than Iceland, for example. Everyone has a motive and everyone is looking for their own interests.


I never advocated terrorism. It's a relative term though, and you are looking at it one sided. One man's freedom fighter is another's terrorist. In the eyes of many in the region, the US is the terrorist for killing thousands of civilians in order to protect a few hundred troops, and letting a country go into chaos in the name of oil stability.
 

imported_Tango

Golden Member
Mar 8, 2005
1,623
0
0
This has been a very controversial problem since years. There is NO definition of terrorism, and thus no definition of terrorist.
Since NOBODY likes terrorists the term has been exploited by every government to designate its enemies.

It's interesting to know that the first time the word terrorism was used, it was to indicate violence of a government over its citizens; in particular it was used during the so-called "terror" right after the french revolution. During the cold-war usually the US government used the word "terrorist" to indicate the deeds of the russian occupation army in eastern europe.

So.. the use of the word "terrorism" to indicate the "targeting of civilians" is very new and young and infact not even correct. During the russian occupation of Afghanistan the american media called the Afghan's guerrilla (including Bin Laden) "Mujaheddin", an arab word meaning "those who fight to defend". Of course the Pentagon wouldn't use this terminology today... :)

There's a very interesting book about this topic, wrote by Columbia University researcher Brigitte Nacos: "Terrorism and the Media"

 

Gaard

Diamond Member
Feb 17, 2002
8,911
1
0
Originally posted by: raildogg
The two nukes we dropped on Japan, was that an act of terrorism?

Not in my eye. We saved countless American lives and probably millions of Japanese lives who were fanatical and would have fought till death. We also realized the destructiveness of a nuke and not a single nuke has been used since. War is hell and civilians are killed. There hasn't been a war where a civilian hasn't been killed, whether intentionaly or unintentionally.
Nothing after "not in my eye" has anything to do with whether or not it was terrorism.