And of course, no one can get shot without some mention of gun control...

[Darwin333]

interesting you bring up the 4x4 analogy.

Below is street legal

And this is not

So things arent as black and white as you put them.

The "legal" one you pictured can kill just as many people as this nutjob did. Its not really that hard either, steer vehicle towards crowd or people and push gas peddle to the floor.

 

[irishScott]

Well the reality for those people is that it became their business. Like real fast.

No it didn't. What became their business was the fact that a madman was able to buy one. But gun laws are more exciting than procedural errors, so here we are.

Target the laws regarding the reporting of mental illness and violent threats. Punish those who failed to report, punish the gunman for his crimes, and leave the vast majority of law-abiding gun owners alone. We didn't do a thing to deserve punishment or restriction, some psychopath just spooked the sheep into thinking we're all wolves.

 

[JSt0rm]

The "legal" one you pictured can kill just as many people as this nutjob did. Its not really that hard either, steer vehicle towards crowd or people and push gas peddle to the floor.

The only difference being that the trucks main function is not killing.

 

[JSt0rm]

No it didn't. What became their business was the fact that a madman was able to buy one. But gun laws are more exciting than procedural errors, so here we are.

Target the laws regarding the reporting of mental illness and violent threats. Punish those who failed to report, punish the gunman for his crimes, and leave the vast majority of law-abiding gun owners alone. We didn't do a thing to deserve punishment or restriction, some psychopath just spooked the sheep into thinking we're all wolves.

Look nobody really cares that you have guns.. We are talking about these drum magazines and extra big pistol clips. Nobody is taking guns away. It wont happen.

 

[irishScott]

The only difference being that the trucks main function is not killing.

And killing is not always bad. It all depends on the context.

 

[PrinceofWands]

There is nothing invisible about the threshold passed. If I didnt want to be moderate about the subject I would say ban all guns except muskets. Then he would have to spend time reloading after each shot. I'm just saying this 30 round clip is excessive for what anyone should be expecting to see in their daily life. So I ddnt go to the extremes you decided to go to. When you do that to prove a point you end up proving nothing and just look like you are making strawmen to argue against.

And I'm just saying that high capacities magazines matter less often than meteor strikes and vending machines in the grand scheme of things, so quit wasting time, money, and effort on shit that doesn't matter. If you want to reduce things like this, reduce the causes of crime and expand opportunities and acceptance of mental illness treatment.

 

[Lanyap]

Thats fine. there should probably be a ban on 30 round handgun magazines and 300 round drum magazines for assault rifles.

Why, the Glock 19 he used has a standard 15 round magazine and can be switched with a second full mag in a few seconds with little practice.

 

[JSt0rm]

And killing is not always bad. It all depends on the context.

Of course but things that can kill are regulated like the vehicles above and things who's only function is to kill are also regulated. Well except those big broadsword things with the dragons on them they sell on the home shopping network. Who can take that seriously though? Even then though I don't think you can just walk down the street with them.

 

[Darwin333]

a gun with a 30 round magazine.

Sounds like he was using FMJ ammo which, if true, likely had more impact on how many people survived than if he had 15 rounds of JHP self defense ammo.

 

[blackangst1]

edit: OK, my point about rifles is off target. Nevermind.

 

[irishScott]

Look nobody really cares that you have guns.. We are talking about these drum magazines and extra big pistol clips. Nobody is taking guns away. It wont happen.

But once again, where do you draw the line? What do you define as "extra big?" Why is 30 such a magic number? And most importantly, given that you've said as far as you're concerned I can own as much ammo and smaller cap magazines as I like, what's going to stop me from killing if I decide to do something similar? It won't, it'll just require a very tiny bit of training that I could achieve while watching TV after classes (sitting on my couch and doing repeated mag-changes) to make the difference almost negligible.

 

[irishScott]

Of course but things that can kill are regulated like the vehicles above and things who's only function is to kill are also regulated. Well except those big broadsword things with the dragons on them they sell on the home shopping network. Who can take that seriously though? Even then though I don't think you can just walk down the street with them.

In principle I agree with the notion of gun licensing and registration similar to how cars are treated. That is it should require a license to own a certain class of gun. It would cut down on crime immensely. The problem is that people are easily frightened, and guns' primary use is (usually) killing people. The slippery slope is all too real for guns, which is why we need more gun freedoms to compensate.

 

[DucatiMonster696]

Of course but things that can kill are regulated like the vehicles above and things who's only function is to kill are also regulated. Well except those big broadsword things with the dragons on them they sell on the home shopping network. Who can take that seriously though? Even then though I don't think you can just walk down the street with them.

It was not to long ago that a man in Japan injured 10 people and killed 5 with a knife and in China another similar instance of a man going nuts and killing several people with knife also occurred. Never underestimate a determined and insane(bent on killing) person's ability to find a means to accomplish their death toll objective. Banning and/or regulating guns is a simple and hollow appeal to fear in order to bring a false sense of safety.

 

[JSt0rm]

ok slippery slopes win again. Well a gun nut just shot up one of the people who make the laws so lets see what happens with the laws.

 

[JohnOfSheffield]

Tell me a method of preventing such a hypothetical without punishing the innocent majority and ensuring that the slippery slope argument doesn't apply, and I'm listening.

Sure, stricter control and no second hand sales except through a dealer would be a good start.

I prefer the UK system to the US system though and i know you'll disagree with that so...

I sincerely doubt we'll ever reach common ground on this issue.

 

[JSt0rm]

oh and I cant debate 5 of you and drive home so tata for now

 

[irishScott]

Sure, stricter control and no second hand sales except through a dealer would be a good start.

I prefer the UK system to the US system though and i know you'll disagree with that so...

I sincerely doubt we'll ever reach common ground on this issue.

I meant the innocent (vast) majority of gun owners who have never and will never commit a crime with their guns. Stricter control usually punishes that innocent majority.

And yeah, we probably will never reach common ground here.

 

[Darwin333]

The only difference being that the trucks main function is not killing.

Sorry, I assumed the only thing relevent to this conversation was the potential damage in human lives a certain item could cause.

Such as your argument that smaller mags would cause less damage than larger ones. I, being a gun owner with a decent ammount of practice and training, know that to be bullshit. I would never own a 30rd mag for a pistol. It has more rounds initially but they are generally cheaply made and are much much harder to switch in a combat situation. I carry a .40 caliber with a 16rd magazine and I can drop a spent mag, load a fresh one, chamber a round, and put more rounds downrange in a sec or less. I can't do that with a big ass cumbersome 30rd mag.

Banning 30 round mags will not change situations like this.

 

[irishScott]

ok slippery slopes win again. Well a gun nut just shot up one of the people who make the laws so lets see what happens with the laws.

He wasn't a gun nut. He was a madman who, if his conditions had been properly reported, would never have committed his crime under current law. The only way to modify gun laws to prevent crimes like his is to prevent people with clean records from buying guns, and even then he could go illegal easily enough. Which amounts to a gun ban. Anything else is a feel good measure that does nothing more than restrict the innocent.

 

[her209]

Oakland's and CA's strict gun laws did an awesome job at preventing this fiasco right?

He didn't live in Oakland.
http://www.ktvu.com/news/24299456/detail.html

 

[Darwin333]

ok slippery slopes win again. Well a gun nut just shot up one of the people who make the laws so lets see what happens with the laws.

What makes him a gun nut?

If it turns out his favorite book was the communist manifesto is he then a leftwing nut or would he just be a plain nut?

 

[Amused]

I meant the innocent (vast) majority of gun owners who have never and will never commit a crime with their guns. Stricter control usually punishes that innocent majority.

And yeah, we probably will never reach common ground here.

Who the hell wants to live like Harry Brown???

 

[her209]

Oh it wasn't their fault. It was all of those bordering "gun crime exporting" Red states. Obviously if everyone adopted California's version of gun control gun crime would just disappear.

Like in Arizona?

 

[spidey07]

1) Used gun can be legally sold to anyone without any background check in some states, since no background check is needed they won't know if you are out of state or even an escaped convict.
2) See 1
3) See 1

Just file off the serial number before use and it's an illegal firearm and will never show up in statistics about legal firearms used for crime.

It's already illegal for a felon to own a gun. You want to make it against the law for a felon to own a gun? Already a law.

How about make it against the law to sell to a felon privately? WAIT! It already is against the law to do so!

 

[Amused]

He didn't live in Oakland.
http://www.ktvu.com/news/24299456/detail.html

Irrelevant. CA gun laws are some of the strictest in the nation.