And after all, <you're> my Powerwall!! Musk gives away more patents.

[ultimatebob]

If you want to be off the grid you're entitled to be off the grid. Install a completely self-contained system and the power company can't touch you. But if you want to be on the grid a little, use it when you want and force them to buy from you then they own your ass. You're not being charged to not use their electricity, that's free. You're being charged to use their grid and that's not free.

In my state, the generation and transmission costs are separated on the bill.

I wonder how billing would work if we got to a point where rooftop solar cells generated more power than what the utilities needed, and they didn't want the power.

 

[Brovane]

With a lot of generators, you typically only power critical circuits. Say the fridge, sump pumps, key lighting, and maybe the furnace depending on the type. You could wire these up to do the same potentially.

Oh yeah you could. I wouldn't however trust the powerwall to act as UPS for a computer plugged into a circuit that was on a powerwall backup power circuit. The good thing is that the cutover will be a lot faster than with a generator (no crank time) but I think people are assuming that because it is a battery it acts as UPS. I wouldn't make that assumption based on the details released so far.

 

[Imp]

So I bothered to read an article... This thing is a lot more impressive than I thought. A 10 kWh version is pretty small and only $3500 standalone. Thought it'd be $20k a pop. Assuming double the price for installation and an invertor, that still sounds pretty good. And no lead-acid to deal with?

At 10 kWh, I could run a TV, cable box, and computer for maybe 20 hours. Add in a microwave or toaster oven at ~1 kW each, it would still work well.

 

[Phoenix86]

With a lot of generators, you typically only power critical circuits. Say the fridge, sump pumps, key lighting, and maybe the furnace depending on the type. You could wire these up to do the same potentially.

I believe this is correct, however the system is expandable, you can double up on the batteries and support more stuff. Not sure where I read it but one unit will do fridge+some lighting.

 

[Brovane]

So I bothered to read an article... This thing is a lot more impressive than I thought. A 10 kWh version is pretty small and only $3500 standalone. Thought it'd be $20k a pop. Assuming double the price for installation and an invertor, that still sounds pretty good. And no lead-acid to deal with?

At 10 kWh, I could run a TV, cable box, and computer for maybe 20 hours. Add in a microwave or toaster oven at ~1 kW each, it would still work well.

I was very surprised at the price. Before the announcement I heard figures that it would be over $10k+. When I did see the price of $3500 I was shocked by how low it was.

 

[Phoenix86]

So I bothered to read an article... This thing is a lot more impressive than I thought. A 10 kWh version is pretty small and only $3500 standalone. Thought it'd be $20k a pop. Assuming double the price for installation and an invertor, that still sounds pretty good. And no lead-acid to deal with?

At 10 kWh, I could run a TV, cable box, and computer for maybe 20 hours. Add in a microwave or toaster oven at ~1 kW each, it would still work well.

Fridge is the big one during an outage, depending on the duration, don't want to lose all the perishables. It's a huge power draw to keep it going, so if you really didn't care about it, you could likely go your route and budget some entertainment.

 

[Red Squirrel]

This is awesome. I love Tesla as a company, they're more than just there to make money they want to make the world a better place.
I could see these battery packs being useful for emergency power or for a solar system. Basically a whole house UPS. Not sure how viable it would be to continuously cycle them on peak then charge them off peak though. Would have to figure out the math and life of the battery to see if it's actually viable. I had thought of doing that with lead acid batteries but figured it would not be worth it so never really ran the numbers, just a thought that came to mind.

I don't think the hydro companies would like that though, it's basically cheating the system, but screw em.

 

[Red Squirrel]

Fridge is the big one during an outage, depending on the duration, don't want to lose all the perishables. It's a huge power draw to keep it going, so if you really didn't care about it, you could likely go your route and budget some entertainment.

Just start storing the food outside in containers, or pack snow in buckets and put in the fridge. I guess if it's summer then you're kinda screwed though.

 

[rcpratt]

going solar and being off thegrid, or even utilizing the extra power to "sell back" to the utility company sounds like a great idea. until the power companies realize they arent making money off those solar households anymore, so they place a surcharge on their account for their "grid access", even tho they are making more power than they use, and feeding the excess to the grid for others. here in AZ there is a proposal to increase that surcharge so high it makes the use of solar not even worth it.

http://azcapitoltimes.com/news/2015...vice-expected-to-seek-400-solar-fee-increase/

http://thinkprogress.org/climate/20...ona-utility-adds-50-dollar-rooftop-solar-fee/

what a kick in the nuts. they are basically charging people for NOT using their electricity.

Just to clarify, you think that a utility should provide its services (in this case, access to their distribution and transmission systems) at no charge? Those poles, wires, and transformers don't grow by themselves.

 

[Phoenix86]

Just start storing the food outside in containers, or pack snow in buckets and put in the fridge. I guess if it's summer then you're kinda screwed though.

It's not uncommon for a high to be 40F in winter here, we'll see snow a couple times of the year and maybe one good ground freeze. A significant amount of down time for power in my area is due to severe weather in the spring, when it can get closer up to 90F.

There's tons of places in the US this wouldn't work in for the vast majority of the year.

 

[Phoenix86]

Just to clarify, you think that a utility should provide its services (in this case, access to their distribution and transmission systems) at no charge? Those poles, wires, and transformers don't grow by themselves.

Who said it' free? Access to distribution is already payed for. They aren't running additional lines/poles/transformers to accommodate solar. In Texas, production and delivery are two different companies, so I'm pretty sure access/distribution it's already a line item.

In fact, this solution reduces any excess load from solar by flattening consumption which greatly benefits power suppliers. Should consumers get a break for flattening consumption?

 

[Accord99]

In fact, this solution reduces any excess load from solar by flattening consumption which greatly benefits power suppliers. Should consumers get a break for flattening consumption?

You do get a break, by paying less for electricity.

But those comments you're replying to however are more directed at the net-metering supporters who want to be able to sell electricity to the utility at retail rates whenever they have excess electricity to the point where they can have a positive balance with the utility.

 

[Phoenix86]

You do get a break, by paying less for electricity.

But those comments you're replying to however are more directed at the net-metering supporters who want to be able to sell electricity to the utility at retail rates whenever they have excess electricity to the point where they can have a positive balance with the utility.

You see, when people talk about getting a break, especially when money is involved, they tend to mean pay less for a given amount of goods, not buy less goods.

The comment I was responding to were regarding access/distribution fees, the post I quoted is talking about poles, lines, and transformers. It had nothing to do with the rate power is sold back to the power company at, which as far as I know hasn't even been brought up in this thread.

 

[rcpratt]

Who said it' free? Access to distribution is already payed for. They aren't running additional lines/poles/transformers to accommodate solar. In Texas, production and delivery are two different companies, so I'm pretty sure access/distribution it's already a line item.

In fact, this solution reduces any excess load from solar by flattening consumption which greatly benefits power suppliers. Should consumers get a break for flattening consumption?

He was complaining about being charged for the privilege...

Already paid for? Utilities generally earn money by charging rates to recoup investments. You are using the product, so they charge you the rate. There's also a significant cost to maintain and improve distribution lines. A significant distributed generation shift would require MASSIVE changes and upgrades to both distribution and transmission.

Flattening demand is somewhat helpful, but those reduced costs directly benefit power customers, not utilities. And that relatively small benefit is much less than the other costs discussed.

Plus, obviously, the utilities want to sell you power. These mean less power sold. So they have selfish reasons too.

edit - autocorrect

 

[Imp]

Fridge is the big one during an outage, depending on the duration, don't want to lose all the perishables. It's a huge power draw to keep it going, so if you really didn't care about it, you could likely go your route and budget some entertainment.

Oh right... I need to store food.

I went fridge shopping (online) a while back and noticed a lot of ~15 cubic feet, full size models with ratings of ~500 kWh per year. Over 365 days, that's 1.65 kWh per day -- obviously fluctuations, probably higher use in winter -- so a 10 kWh battery should be able to handle it for a few days?

I also found some bar fridges rated for ~250 kWh/year, which should be less than 1 kWh daily. It was hilarious that 3 cu.ft. fridges used about half the energy 15 cu.ft. models did.

 

[lxskllr]

this guy is getting to be my hero...

He's very impressive. He reminds me of the gilded age visionaries, with the mercenary attributes toned down. He thinks big, and this country could use some of that. That's what made America great.

 

[Red Squirrel]

Oh right... I need to store food.

I went fridge shopping (online) a while back and noticed a lot of ~15 cubic feet, full size models with ratings of ~500 kWh per year. Over 365 days, that's 1.65 kWh per day -- obviously fluctuations, probably higher use in winter -- so a 10 kWh battery should be able to handle it for a few days?

I also found some bar fridges rated for ~250 kWh/year, which should be less than 1 kWh daily. It was hilarious that 3 cu.ft. fridges used about half the energy 15 cu.ft. models did.

That reminds me I have a chest freezer I got for free maybe a year or so ago, I never even thought of checking the usage. I was looking at my billing recently and realized that I'm using 24 to 40kwh per day, and that seems kind of high. My servers use about 300w, my core i7 machine uses about 400w on it's own, but I've been turning it off now, it's strictly for gaming, my new machine probably uses about 100w but I still have to test it... fridge is another I should test.

I need to invest in a true RMS multimeter though, I don't think the one I have is true RMS. It's an Ideal clamp meter I got at home depot for maybe 100 bucks.

 

[Phoenix86]

Oh right... I need to store food.

Yes but it doesn't have to be refrigerated.

I mean technically we're supposed to be prepared for no power and have dried/canned goods, so you're just saving $ on not replacing stuff.

 

[Brovane]

This is awesome. I love Tesla as a company, they're more than just there to make money they want to make the world a better place.
I could see these battery packs being useful for emergency power or for a solar system. Basically a whole house UPS. Not sure how viable it would be to continuously cycle them on peak then charge them off peak though. Would have to figure out the math and life of the battery to see if it's actually viable. I had thought of doing that with lead acid batteries but figured it would not be worth it so never really ran the numbers, just a thought that came to mind.

I don't think the hydro companies would like that though, it's basically cheating the system, but screw em.

 

[Brovane]

Yes but it doesn't have to be refrigerated.

I mean technically we're supposed to be prepared for no power and have dried/canned goods, so you're just saving $ on not replacing stuff.

With 10kw/h battery you could run your fridge, TV and a computer so you can post on ATOT. Remember your priorities......

 

[mrjminer]

Is there a reason the deserts here are not completely filled with solar panels that have their power distributed across the nation? I know there are some, but I thought it would make more sense to just cover the entire area.

 

[Paratus]

this guy is getting to be my hero...

Ya Musk has a greatness about him. Love his approach and ability to do multiple projects at once and having the vision to trust his teams.


Generational guy.

He's very impressive. He reminds me of the gilded age visionaries, with the mercenary attributes toned down. He thinks big, and this country could use some of that. That's what made America great.

Not to sound to dramatic but I'm pretty sure he's trying to save the human race in the short term and the long term.

Tesla, Gigafactory, and Solar City all tackle the problem of clean energy which is going to be the big issue over the next century.

Then he had this to say in an interview with the Bad Astronomer Phil Plait:
http://www.slate.com/blogs/bad_astr..._spacex_ceo_and_our_multi_planet_species.html

We talked about various topics for a while—the movie Interstellar, the history of SpaceX, terraforming Mars … and that was when I said something dumb.

“I know Mars is a long-term goal for SpaceX,” I started. Then, pretty much as an aside, I said, “because you want to retire on Mars … ”

Musk got a pained look on his face. “No, that’s wrong. That’s not why I want to get to Mars. That quote is from an article in the Guardian. They pushed me for a sound bite, asking if I wanted to retire on Mars. I eventually said yes. When I retire—hopefully before I go senile—and eventually die, then Mars is as good a place to die as any.”

That line made me laugh; it’s far better than anything printed in the Guardian article.

But still, I was taken aback. “OK then, the article wanted a sexy quote and got one. But if that’s not the reason, what is it?”

Musk didn’t hesitate. “Humans need to be a multiplanet species,” he replied.

So apparently that's what SpaceX is for.

 

[Vdubchaos]

I thought his presentation was horrible, unprofessional and full of stuttering....First he tells us how the batteries are awful.....then he goes on to try to sell you one. That pretty much summed up the whole speech for me. Tesla is basically trying to sell you batteries while claiming to save the world......go ahead and look up how bad battery production is on the environment.

The answer to our Energy problem is not just batteries or solar power, without LESS consumption and production of BS things to sell to people.....nothing will ever change. We will simply consume more and use more power.

3 years ago we used 20% of the world generated power. Remember, China and India are WELL on the way to use as much power as Americans. And when they do, good luck to this planet.

If American's were green or cared about environment they would CONSUME less.....not look for new ways to support their bad habits.

 

[Vdubchaos]

He's very impressive. He reminds me of the gilded age visionaries, with the mercenary attributes toned down. He thinks big, and this country could use some of that. That's what made America great.

You really bought his pathetic sales pitch?

:biggrin::biggrin:

 

[Markbnj]

I'm intrigued but 3kw peak load is not enough to run our house. If I need two, then I'm at essentially the installed price of a natural gas-fired genset.