Anandtech: against BTX? Why? State your arguments here! *now with poll*

[KillaKilla]

Why would anandtech's forums be against BTX/CTX? After all, aren't many of us overclockers? Arent many of us SFF users? Don't we all want a quieter, cooler case? Perhaps we would then be able to get those few more Mhz or few fewer Db out?

My main idea as to why we would be against it is because it helps Intel more than AMD (intels Prescott can boil tungsten). But that we would be against it for that doesn't make sense. Unless you openly admit that your biased to AMD, then you would have to realize that BTX/CTX would be a better layout than the aging ATX. That Intel designed it does not necesarily make it bad. After all, was it not intel that was a major pusher for ATX? Isn't ATX better than AT? Perhaps you don't remember, but AT had many flaws- but many of us were blind to them then. I would think that this is the same scenario. We all know that BTX results in a cooler CPU and GPU. We also know that this is an opportunity to get a quieter case

Of course, I stil have to acmit that the timing of it's release is quite suspicious. Even so, it had been begun as 'big water' years before prescott was being designed, so it isn't like Intel came up with the idea as a response to Prescott's heat.

 

[SneakyStuff]

Why? I love my case, I don't want to get a new case, new PSU, and new mobo, just for some new form factor. ATX works just fine.

 

[Bateluer]

I don't think you'll have much of a choice when the time comes. Odds are that mobo maker will make BTX AMD boards for the BTX form factor, as will PSU and Case makers.

 

[KillaKilla]

Originally posted by: Bateluer
I don't think you'll have much of a choice when the time comes. Odds are that mobo maker will make BTX AMD boards for the BTX form factor, as will PSU and Case makers.

And they'll make ATX versions just like when ATX first came out.

Originally posted by: SneakyStuff
Why? I love my case, I don't want to get a new case, new PSU, and new mobo, just for some new form factor. ATX works just fine.

Except that BTX doesn't need a new PSU, and you don't need a new case or MB just because a better one exists. I didn't move to ATX for 2 years after it came out.

 

[Tiamat]

Im speaking outta my butt, but maybe because going to BTX might tell intel "you know what? now that we have BTX, heat issues arent issues anymore, so we can afford to turn up the heat even more!!" Then we will have 160+ Watt cpus, and then looking for another form factor.

Also, cost of upgrade isnt low. People have found alternative ways to cool their hot processors that ends up being cheaper than buying a btx case and motherboard. "Why change when my h20 cooling system is good enough" or something like that.

 

[Wahsapa]

i :heart: btx

one argument is that a64's wont work because of trace length issues to the ram slots but i think if amd themselves put out a standard issue design for the btx form factor everything would be fine.

i dont think its an underhanded attempt for intel to go "look now we can run 160 degress cpus" after all they are going to pentium m type designs. amd, intel, ibm, all of them are going away from the faster = better approach. theres a speed wall and half of it is heat. they want smarter, cooler, less power hungry designs.

btx is a smarter design.

btx is a slow change thats going to happen further down the line. by the time you want a new case and psu, youll have the option to go btx. btx is future proof like a64s. cooler masters cm stacker already accepts btx boards.

i like the idea of micro and pico btx, they have this awsome design feel to them.

 

[HardWarrior]

Originally posted by: Bateluer
I don't think you'll have much of a choice when the time comes. Odds are that mobo maker will make BTX AMD boards for the BTX form factor, as will PSU and Case makers.

Don't be too sure about that. BTX isn't catching the manufacturing houses by storm. Not many are willing to force such a big change on everyone just because Intel says so. Having said that, BTX does seem to offer some interesting and needed changes, but I don't think it's going anywhere. For now, at least.

 

[klah]

Gateway just released their first BTX machine two days ago:

Gateway Delivers 'BTX' Desktop System
gateway_700gr_lrg.jpg

 

[klah]

I can't seem to be able to edit my post above so I will add this here.

Here is the best internal shot of the new Gateway system I could locate:

http://home.comcast.net/~00000...W700GR/GW_700gr_01.jpg

They have a large plastic shroud to direct air directly from the front of the chassis to the cpu, which is now at the front of the mobo. The HDD is up above this with the optical drives now.

 

[Sonic587]

I think BTX is a great idea. A better design for cooling and silencing is fine by me. :thumbsup:

I think the general backlash from the masses is because BTX has largely been dubbed incompatible with current hardware. I do not know exactly what are the problems, but it just seems that along with DDR2/PCI-E/775, Intel is forcing people to upgrade to more horrible price/performance products (in the short term). With Prescott pulling 100W+, it's obvious why everyone is pointing fingers. No one *looks* like they need this *now*, except Intel.

Hopefully, if we start seeing hybrid ATX/BTX cases (I.E. Cooler Master Stacker), this hesitation to switch will slowly fade into a graceful and easy transition.

 

[KillaKilla]

Originally posted by: Tiamat
Im speaking outta my butt, but maybe because going to BTX might tell intel "you know what? now that we have BTX, heat issues arent issues anymore, so we can afford to turn up the heat even more!!" Then we will have 160+ Watt cpus, and then looking for another form factor.

Except that this has been long in the design process, and thus cannot be a kneejerk reaction, as I said in the first post. Also, Intel will not be in a position to force 2 design major design changes on the market, after what this first one caused in their power over the industry.

Originally posted by: Tiamat
Also, cost of upgrade isnt low. People have found alternative ways to cool their hot processors that ends up being cheaper than buying a btx case and motherboard. "Why change when my h20 cooling system is good enough" or something like that.

BTX is not incompatible with current water cooling setups, unless they(non-heatblock parts) are mounted on the MB or in a part of the case to be changed. Also, people don't need to go buy a new case and MB just because there is a new form factor.

 

[Tab]

It cant be a good movie if case manufactures dont want to make a BTX case and other major companies are complaining. When AMD and the motherboard manufactures and case manufactures support it then I will too. 🙂

 

[Mik3y]

if money werent a factor, everyone would start supporting btx then. it'll benefit both amd and intel, especially in the long run. we cant expect atx to live out forever and very many people are going to go extreme to make their systems run icy cold. IMO, it's the way to go.

 

[Arcanedeath]

The specs for the various forms of BTX keep changing, Intel and Co. just can't seem to make up their mind what the exact spec is going to be and BTX only helps for cooling the CPU, it actualy HURTS cooling performance for the Video Card and HDD's. When we have great ATX cases w/ good cooling why in the world would we want BTX shoved down our throats? Once they make up their minds on a final standard that has a better layout than ATX and more manufactures come on board then I might think about switching to BTX, but as it is now I'm keeping my Antec 1040BII 🙂

 

[Tiamat]

Originally posted by: KillaKilla

blah blah blah...

Originally posted by: Tiamat
Also, cost of upgrade isnt low. People have found alternative ways to cool their hot processors that ends up being cheaper than buying a btx case and motherboard. "Why change when my h20 cooling system is good enough" or something like that.

BTX is not incompatible with current water cooling setups, unless they(non-heatblock parts) are mounted on the MB or in a part of the case to be changed. Also, people don't need to go buy a new case and MB just because there is a new form factor.

you are right, however the point i was trying to make is:

BTX, technically sounds like it is the right way to go. It claims to be better for cooling the hot components of the system by having a direct front to back air pattern with no deviation, with the CPU directly in the path of the 2 fans.


Personally, when asked "What do you think of BTX" I say: "Sounds ok. No, I dont believe I will upgrade to a BTX form factor system any time within the next 2 years because my system doesnt have any thermal problems (which is the main point for BTX)."

Also, if you are watercooling right now, you have "no" need for BTX. BTX is "a better way to remove heat from your system". However, If you are already using water on CPU, NB, and GPU, you are removing a huge portion of the heat from the system. A water cooling arrangement probably cannot gain anything in respect to BTX vs ATX.

 

[Wahsapa]

awhile back this one guy posted about how his heatsink fell off his A64 MSI board and landed on his 6800gt... if it was a btx board the heat sink would have just fell to the bottom of the case

 

[Mik3y]

question: is BTX going to officially come out and take over ATX? or is it still a "maybe it will, maybe it wont" type of thing?

 

[HardWarrior]

Originally posted by: Wahsapa
awhile back this one guy posted about how his heatsink fell off his A64 MSI board and landed on his 6800gt... if it was a btx board the heat sink would have just fell to the bottom of the case

One anecdotal circumstance doesn't equate to us all immediatly jumping to BTW. Like 99% of the people here I know how to secure a heatsink or waterblock.

 

[erikistired]

Originally posted by: Tabb
It cant be a good movie if case manufactures dont want to make a BTX case and other major companies are complaining. When AMD and the motherboard manufactures and case manufactures support it then I will too. 🙂

so you're one of the people who are openly biased. fair enough.

case manufacturers are waiting for more motherboards, motherboard manufacturers are waiting for more cases.

and who is complaining, other than amd fanboys?

 

[Wahsapa]

Originally posted by: HardWarrior

Originally posted by: Wahsapa
awhile back this one guy posted about how his heatsink fell off his A64 MSI board and landed on his 6800gt... if it was a btx board the heat sink would have just fell to the bottom of the case

One anecdotal circumstance doesn't equate to us all immediatly jumping to BTW. Like 99% of the people here I know how to secure a heatsink or waterblock.

actually it was the cheap peice of crap plastic MSI retention bracket that snapped off the board letting the hsf fall.

BTX is just smarter, simple as that.

 

[HardWarrior]

Originally posted by: Wahsapa

Originally posted by: HardWarrior

Originally posted by: Wahsapa
awhile back this one guy posted about how his heatsink fell off his A64 MSI board and landed on his 6800gt... if it was a btx board the heat sink would have just fell to the bottom of the case

One anecdotal circumstance doesn't equate to us all immediatly jumping to BTW. Like 99% of the people here I know how to secure a heatsink or waterblock.

actually it was the cheap peice of crap plastic MSI retention bracket that snapped off the board letting the hsf fall.

BTX is just smarter, simple as that.

Still anecdotal.

It's smarter because the video slot is placed somewhere else just in case a POS MSI ZIF cracks off? This is starting to look like a Ross Perot convention. "BTX is everything fr everyone!!!" Dude, BTX has some some advantages, but none justify me jumping on board, especially considering its main reason for existing is to compensate for the fact that Intel is having problems with heat dissapation on a soon-to-be-obsolete CPU.

 

[KillaKilla]

Originally posted by: HardWarrior
BTX's main reason for existing is to compensate for the fact that Intel is having problems with heat dissapation on a soon-to-be-obsolete CPU.

Damnit, I've beaten that point into the ground so many times I'm beginning to get frustrated by the amount of people who keep saying it! Okay here is the old Ctrl-V move:
"BTX began as 'big water' years before prescott was being designed, so it isn't like Intel came up with the idea as a response to Prescott's heat. "
"Except that this has been long in the design process, and thus cannot be a kneejerk reaction, as I said in the first post. Also, Intel will not be in a position to force 2 design major design changes on the market, after what this first one caused in their power over the industry. "

And once again:

Big water, the codename for BTX, has been in the making for years now. It was being designed even before Prescott's devs realised that their creation could turn lead into a plasma. As such, it cannot be a reaction to Prescott's heat.

 

[HardWarrior]

Originally posted by: KillaKilla

Originally posted by: HardWarrior
BTX's main reason for existing is to compensate for the fact that Intel is having problems with heat dissapation on a soon-to-be-obsolete CPU.

Damnit, I've beaten that point into the ground so many times I'm beginning to get frustrated by the amount of people who keep saying it! Okay here is the old Ctrl-V move:
"BTX began as 'big water' years before prescott was being designed, so it isn't like Intel came up with the idea as a response to Prescott's heat. "
"Except that this has been long in the design process, and thus cannot be a kneejerk reaction, as I said in the first post. Also, Intel will not be in a position to force 2 design major design changes on the market, after what this first one caused in their power over the industry. "

And once again:

Big water, the codename for BTX, has been in the making for years now. It was being designed even before Prescott's devs realised that their creation could turn lead into a plasma. As such, it cannot be a reaction to Prescott's heat.

Dammit, then why don't you take your strangely scewed interpretation of events, and few hundred dollars, and run out and get yourself a new BTX rig? If I was as tired of preaching as you seem to be I'd just shut up and move on. Geez!

 

[Degrador]

Ok, I feel I should put in my 2 cents here.

A lot of people are complaining about BTX 'cause it means they'll have to buy a new case and motherboard to upgrade. However, what you fail to realise is that the transition to BTX will occur over many years. I'm almost certain none of you have many relatively new parts in cases older than 5 years. I'd say you'll find ATX motherboards in the market for a fair while, even with chipsets as yet unreleased. Hence you should have plenty of time to keep upgrading with your current case. Then over the next 5 years, if and when you feel the need to buy a new case (as I'm sure a lot of you have done in the past), you'll have the option to go to a BTX case. If you don't want to buy a new motherboard at that time, wait until you need a new motherboard and then get both at once.

This really shouldn't be much of a concern guys. Intel is not "forcing this on the manufacturers", and AMD can make their own decision whether to take it up or not. However neither party needs to do this any time soon. ATX is still keeping up with Prescott and A-FX (both of which consume a fair amount of power, hence generating a fair amount of heat). And considering Intel has recently decided to give up on Tejas and follow the centrino line into desktop, Intel won't have a huge need for BTX after Prescott anyway. But less heat benefits everybody. Chips last longer, Intel / AMD doesn't have to deal with warranties as much, and it should allow enthusiasts to keep noise levels down even further than ATX.

So basically, chill out, and go with the flow. And go at your own pace too - ATX ain't gonna disappear any time soon.

 

[HardWarrior]

Someone?s ignoring history in their zeal to "chill out" the masses. BTX may not catch on at all. If it does, it won't be based on attrition but whether or not it offers REAL benefits, across the board. Not pie-in-the-sky stuff like "If your HSF falls off, it won't hit your video card; therefore it's a smarter design!"

Let the market decide, and without the help of would-be computer futurists who see "new" and "the best" as synonyms.