Analysis of military options for a North Korean conflict

yllus

Elite Member & Lifer
Aug 20, 2000
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I think a number of us have known intuitively for years that going to war with North Korea is a nonstarter for reasons of casualties - Seoul is one of the largest cities in the world and would be immediately decimated by artillery fire. Estimated casualties on the South Korean / American side are expected to be 300,000 to 500,000. Today, that's just a mind-boggling number.

War Is Boring - Why There Are No Military Solutions to North Korea

What would a military strike accomplish?

First and foremost, it is unlikely that any sort of military action could actually eliminate North Korea’s nuclear program.

Since the public debut of their nuclear weapons program in 2006, North Korea’s nuclear infrastructure has become increasingly sophisticated. With the possibility of a preventive attack by the United States, such as the one carried out against Iraq in 2003, looming over their heads; the regime spread out its arsenal, nuclear facilities and launch platforms across the country.

According to Sig Hecker, emeritus director of the Los Alamos National Laboratory and senior fellow at Stanford University, “there is no conceivable way the United States could destroy all North Korean nuclear weapons. It is not possible to know where they all are. Even if a few could be located, it would be difficult to destroy them without causing them to detonate and create a mushroom cloud over the Korean peninsula.”

Furthermore, North Korea is estimated to have enough fissile material to produce one nuclear bomb every six to seven weeks, and “it is even less likely that the United States could locate and demolish all of the North’s nuclear materials,” says Hecker.

A question of response

The outcome of any U.S. military action in North Korea hinges upon how the regime would respond once provoked. The possibilities have prevented at least three U.S. administrations from pursuing military options.

...

oday the DPRK ranks 23rd worldwide in terms of conventional military power. Although qualitatively inferior to the militaries of the U.S. and its allies, the North’s vaunted million-man army, along with some 3,500 aging main battle tanks and over 21,000 artillery pieces is incredibly lethal.

Thousands of North Korean artillery guns are pre-targeted at Seoul, a sprawling capital city of some 25 million people. That is about as far away from the DMZ as Baltimore is from Washington D.C.. Shells fired from those batteries can reach Seoul in about 45 seconds.

The casualties and damage produced by an artillery barrage of this size on the world’s fourth largest city would be unimaginable. According to Victor Cha, Director for Asian Affairs in Pres. Bush’s National Security Council, many of those guns are in hardened bunkers that could not be taken out “without using tactical nuclear weapons.”

With Seoul right down the road, that is not a realistic option.

This scenario doesn’t even take into account North Korea’s sizable arsenal of chemical weapons. According to The Telegraph “after decades of investment, the country is believed to be able to make most types of chemical weapons, but focus on sulphur mustard, chlorine, phosgene, sarin and VX. Stockpiles are estimated at 2,500-5,000 tons. Chemical toxins can be fired in a wide range of artillery shells, rockets and missiles.”

Within minutes of a U.S. strike, the North could unleash a devastating retaliatory strike, all without moving a single man. According to Cha, “an arsenal of 600 chemically armed Scud missiles would be fired on all South Korean airports, train stations and marine ports, making it impossible for civilians to escape.”

Furthermore, “The North’s arsenal of medium-range missiles could also be fitted with chemical warheads and launched at Japan, delaying the arrival of U.S. reinforcements.”

Modern war on the Korean peninsula

According to a report on a war game organized by The Atlantic in 2005, “an actual war on the Korean peninsula would almost certainly be the bloodiest America has fought since Vietnam—possibly since World War II.

In recent years Pentagon experts have estimated that the first ninety days of such a conflict might produce 300,000 to 500,000 South Korean and American military casualties, along with hundreds of thousands of civilian deaths. The damage to South Korea alone would rock the global economy.”

That was before North Korea had developed nuclear weapons that could vaporize millions in the blink of an eye.

The U.S. would be forced to commit several combat divisions, aircraft carriers and air wings along with at least 500,000 additional troops in order to stabilize the peninsula in the event that the North Korean regime collapsed.

“As wars go, this would be the most unforgiving battle conditions that can be imagined—an extremely high density of enemy and allied forces—over two million mechanized forces all converging on a total battlespace the equivalent of the distance between Washington, D.C., and Boston,” says Cha.

“Soldiers would be fighting with little defense against DPRK artillery, aerial bombardments, and in an urban warfare environment polluted by 5,000 metric tons of DPRK chemical agents.”​
 

MagnusTheBrewer

IN MEMORIAM
Jun 19, 2004
24,135
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We don't have to destroy their nuclear arsenal, we just have to remove the crazies at the top who would use them.
 

nickqt

Diamond Member
Jan 15, 2015
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Perhaps the 60+ year sanctions on North Korea have not only failed, but have brought about a much more dangerous because of isolation government.

So, what's the opposite? Or are we to continue with a failed policy because tradition?
 

WelshBloke

Lifer
Jan 12, 2005
30,025
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Just winning the war is the start of the problems. After that we are left trying to rule a country full of starving people that have been taught to hate us from birth.
 

Pick2

Golden Member
Feb 14, 2017
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Analysis of military options for a North Korean conflict

I think a quote from one of My favorite People is appropriate here:
Ripley: I say we take off and nuke the entire site from orbit. It's the only way to be sure.


<<< and then , like everything else in the USA today , we blame it on the Russians :p >>>
 
Last edited:

pcgeek11

Lifer
Jun 12, 2005
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There are no "good" options for NK. I think the best outcome could be attained by having China intercede and bring NK into some type of control that would involve getting some sane leadership in place.
 
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Hayabusa Rider

Admin Emeritus & Elite Member
Jan 26, 2000
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The greatest threat so Seoul is artillery. If their is war that is what the US has to take out first. Logistics is what wins or loses wars. Disrupt communications and support and the military will be much easier to deal with. We've shown restraint on other wars because war is worse than most can imagine and so we focus on the minimum damage needed to achieve victory, which I define as the ability of NK to mount an effective campaign and the removal of the NK government.

But this is a victory I hope we never have to win. With such a massive force already in striking distance all means short of nuclear weapons would be on the table. What I think that would look like is a kill zone miles deep into the DMZ with that million man army turned into millions of pounds of meat in short order. NK mechanized units are primitive by today's standards and would could be neutralized far easier than modern counterparts.

The above is the version of war if we strike first. It looks much different if it's NK that goes on the offensive. In that case what they have counts. They will have time to march the army across into SK and use their artillery and tens of thousands of South Koreans will probably die. Our forces in Japan alone cannot prevent those deaths in time. What they can do is reduce Pyongyang to rubble. Anything related to governmental functions, militiary or political, would be fair game.

This would be a gloves off war.

Command structure would be gone- Command would be gone as effectively there would be no NK government if Kim survived or not.

That's the easy part if Kim starts a war. A significant portion of the NK army may make it into SK and that means urban warfare on a massive scale and it could take months to "win".

And then we have peace uglier than war, with one nation severly harmed, SK, and 25 million starving people to the north.

The senario above is my own of course but with consideration for what we know and assumes a good deal but some things aren't hypothical at all.

It would be a very real bloody mess.

So who has solutions?
 

cytg111

Lifer
Mar 17, 2008
22,346
12,086
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The greatest threat so Seoul is artillery. If their is war that is what the US has to take out first. Logistics is what wins or loses wars. Disrupt communications and support and the military will be much easier to deal with. We've shown restraint on other wars because war is worse than most can imagine and so we focus on the minimum damage needed to achieve victory, which I define as the ability of NK to mount an effective campaign and the removal of the NK government.

But this is a victory I hope we never have to win. With such a massive force already in striking distance all means short of nuclear weapons would be on the table. What I think that would look like is a kill zone miles deep into the DMZ with that million man army turned into millions of pounds of meat in short order. NK mechanized units are primitive by today's standards and would could be neutralized far easier than modern counterparts.

The above is the version of war if we strike first. It looks much different if it's NK that goes on the offensive. In that case what they have counts. They will have time to march the army across into SK and use their artillery and tens of thousands of South Koreans will probably die. Our forces in Japan alone cannot prevent those deaths in time. What they can do is reduce Pyongyang to rubble. Anything related to governmental functions, militiary or political, would be fair game.

This would be a gloves off war.

Command structure would be gone- Command would be gone as effectively there would be no NK government if Kim survived or not.

That's the easy part if Kim starts a war. A significant portion of the NK army may make it into SK and that means urban warfare on a massive scale and it could take months to "win".

And then we have peace uglier than war, with one nation severly harmed, SK, and 25 million starving people to the north.

The senario above is my own of course but with consideration for what we know and assumes a good deal but some things aren't hypothical at all.

It would be a very real bloody mess.

So who has solutions?

Engineering of weather conditions to let slip a slight breeze of corrosive chemicals that corrupts their artillery capabilities, once Seul is out of the equation let slip loose a massive show of force and level the countrys military capabilities. Into the ground. 100%.
 

Commodus

Diamond Member
Oct 9, 2004
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That's the easy part if Kim starts a war. A significant portion of the NK army may make it into SK and that means urban warfare on a massive scale and it could take months to "win".

I'm not so sure it'd last long. Remember, while the North prioritizes taking care of its soldiers above regular citizens, it doesn't exactly have massive resources to throw at them if they're in combat across the border. The South and US would invariably cut off the North's supplies within days (if not hours) and force them to either surrender or risk running out of food and ammo. And that's not factoring in the likelihood that Northern troops have inferior training and equipment.

Don't get me wrong, it'd get messy, but we keep forgetting that the North's army is held together by bubblegum and tape. It wouldn't take much for the entire apparatus to collapse.
 

FIVR

Diamond Member
Jun 1, 2016
3,753
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This is a stupid conversation. The US will never, ever attack North Korea. The people high up enough to make such decisions are privy to knowledge none of you here appear to posses. They know North Korea has aerosolized VX, BZ, and has tested short range ballistic missiles with nuclear warheads to attack South Korea and Japan. Such an attack would be suicidal. Thousands of americans and millions of south koreans and north koreans and probably japanese would die within hours.



Sure, North Korea would be a crater afterward. How exactly would the US explain its actions after killing 40 million people along with getting 30,000 or so americans killed with a few million south koreans and japanese? LOL!
 

tweaker2

Lifer
Aug 5, 2000
14,182
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China wants a buffer state along its southern border and they made that point quite clear in the 1950's..In their view they have to have this, no two ways about it. The Chinese also realize that the leverage they possess via exploiting the eccentricities of the current NK leadership is a really handy stick to swing around when dealing with the west and the Chinese will demand an unbelievably outlandish price to pay to give that up.

So long as it suits the Chinese to have that irritating omnipotent despot Kim-Jong-what's-his-face run the DPRK like a donkey running a wheat mill, the status quo remains in place. The more the Chinese feels threatened the more they will be exploiting the DPRK's ability to cause consternation and hesitance in the west's handling of Far Eastern diplomatic challenges.

A stalemate is in place with no small price to pay to tilt it one way or the other. That Trump has decided to ramp up our contentious relationship with the DPRK in order to divert attention away from his own personal problems in no way affects the status quo irt the relationship between the DPRK and China.

A war with NK would only be possible if a much larger more threatening issue made it a key part of the equation.

That being said, if it's war with NK, it seems to me it would have to be a spontaneous, overwhelmingly powerful first strike of the non-nuclear variety in order to overcome the advantages the NK and its Chinese enablers have in this regard.
 

MagnusTheBrewer

IN MEMORIAM
Jun 19, 2004
24,135
1,594
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This is a stupid conversation. The US will never, ever attack North Korea. The people high up enough to make such decisions are privy to knowledge none of you here appear to posses. They know North Korea has aerosolized VX, BZ, and has tested short range ballistic missiles with nuclear warheads to attack South Korea and Japan. Such an attack would be suicidal. Thousands of americans and millions of south koreans and north koreans and probably japanese would die within hours.



Sure, North Korea would be a crater afterward. How exactly would the US explain its actions after killing 40 million people along with getting 30,000 or so americans killed with a few million south koreans and japanese? LOL!
You have no idea what you're talking about. You seem to think a few high tech weapons puts NK at the adult table. The scope, options and, flexibility of the U.S. military so outweigh anything NK can do that your suppositions are ludicrous. Would there be casualties in land based conflict? Yes, there would be. Would it be anywhere near the level you believe? Only in Kim Jong-un's dreams.
 

Hayabusa Rider

Admin Emeritus & Elite Member
Jan 26, 2000
50,879
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This is a stupid conversation. The US will never, ever attack North Korea. The people high up enough to make such decisions are privy to knowledge none of you here appear to posses. They know North Korea has aerosolized VX, BZ, and has tested short range ballistic missiles with nuclear warheads to attack South Korea and Japan. Such an attack would be suicidal. Thousands of americans and millions of south koreans and north koreans and probably japanese would die within hours.



Sure, North Korea would be a crater afterward. How exactly would the US explain its actions after killing 40 million people along with getting 30,000 or so americans killed with a few million south koreans and japanese? LOL!


How do you kill 40 million people in a population of 25 million?
 

FIVR

Diamond Member
Jun 1, 2016
3,753
911
106
How do you kill 40 million people in a population of 25 million?

I didn't bother to check their total population. Figured it was ~40, was wrong. That's some "elite" nit-picking, though! Great Job!


You better be there to vet every number I ever post, that's your job now. Only "elite" members get to follow my every word and google it, lol.



What's your excuse for not knowing what the word "transonic" means? Or the range it describes? You left that thread with your tail between your legs, and left it to some dunce to argue your point (and look like a moron for you when he was refuted).
 

Hayabusa Rider

Admin Emeritus & Elite Member
Jan 26, 2000
50,879
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I didn't bother to check their total population. Figured it was ~40, was wrong. That's some "elite" nit-picking, though! Great Job!


You better be there to vet every number I ever post, that's your job now. Only "elite" members get to follow my every word and google it, lol.



What's your excuse for not knowing what the word "transonic" means? Or the range it describes? You left that thread with your tail between your legs, and left it to some dunce to argue your point (and look like a moron for you when he was refuted).

You don't really understand how that went, but that's OK, other people got it and it suits me just fine.

So I'm interested how you know what no one else does, that NK successfully tested a ballistic missile with a nuclear warhead. This is exciting news indeed! Not real in any sense but a thrilling fiction. Just where did this warhead detonate? How far did it travel before the explosion?

Enquiring minds want to know!!! Just as good you have access to NK's armament secrets that we don't know about but you do. Just how did you acquire this information which we could not?

The problem for your friends in NK is not if we strike which at this point I don't think we will, but if Kim decides to attack or if he acquires non fantasy nuclear ballistic missiles and attempts blackmail. There will be no tolerance for the first and little for the second.

In no scenario does Kim "win".
 
Nov 29, 2006
15,464
3,801
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We need to just accept there are going to be casualties and get it over with. Never seen a war without someone dying yet. It will just get worse as time goes on, unchecked. Or we could you know..have never let them build up this kind military might to cause this kind of issue to begin with.
 

FIVR

Diamond Member
Jun 1, 2016
3,753
911
106
You don't really understand how that went, but that's OK, other people got it and it suits me just fine.

No, it is clearly you who doesn't know how that went. But I understand why you would want to misrepresent your own ignorant comments after you are found to be wrong. You described "300-400m/s" as "supersonic". I said that the range of speed described, in the context of the bullet trajectory we were discussing, was "transonic". Here is a link to the article on external ballistics in wikipedia, and the associated "transonic problem" regarding bullet accuracy when the speed of the bullet drops to 300-400m/s:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/External_ballistics#Transonic_problem

If you would like to take it up with the wikipedia editors, I'm sure they would be quite entertained by your idiotic arguments about how bullets are somehow different than planes or other aerodynamic objects wrt the word (and range) "transonic". Since you are so "elite", and clearly a world class sniper, I'm sure you can get the article changed chop chop. Please get back to me when you get that changed.
So I'm interested how you know what no one else does, that NK successfully tested a ballistic missile with a nuclear warhead. This is exciting news indeed! Not real in any sense but a thrilling fiction. Just where did this warhead detonate? How far did it travel before the explosion?

Enquiring minds want to know!!! Just as good you have access to NK's armament secrets that we don't know about but you do. Just how did you acquire this information which we could not?

The problem for your friends in NK is not if we strike which at this point I don't think we will, but if Kim decides to attack or if he acquires non fantasy nuclear ballistic missiles and attempts blackmail. There will be no tolerance for the first and little for the second.

In no scenario does Kim "win".

They haven't tested the warhead and missile at the same time. NK nuclear tests are widely publicized and easy available online. They have tested multiple warheads. They have also tested dozens of IRBM and SRBM with payloads of 1000+kg, plenty to put a bomb on. How many times did the US test its warheads before they dropped them on Japan? Once?



You don't know anything about anything, so I don't really feel the need to use an argument from authority on you and tell you why I know what I know. I can easily show you to be a charlatan and moron with publicly available information, as I did above.


Have a nice day.
 

yllus

Elite Member & Lifer
Aug 20, 2000
20,577
432
126
We need to just accept there are going to be casualties and get it over with. Never seen a war without someone dying yet. It will just get worse as time goes on, unchecked. Or we could you know..have never let them build up this kind military might to cause this kind of issue to begin with.
That logic would have led NATO to take on the USSR decades ago, pre-nukes. We can achieve peace through other means than WW3.