Analysis: Hamas on the move, seeks Palestinian ascendancy

JEDIYoda

Lifer
Jul 13, 2005
33,981
3,318
126
This is a huge article and very interesting seeing how things will play out!
We all know that Fatah will need to play a part in this and that those who oppose each other in what is referred to as the land of Palestine will need to unite or agree to disagree in order for the people who call themselves Palestinians to have a state.

A little insight into what is happening behind the scenes is interesting....
Sure this article is an analysis but very interesting!!

@@@Sorry about the spelling I was writing a friend using the Polish langauge and I didn`t bother to spell check English.....lol@@@@@ 11:20 Feb 2, 2012





http://news.yahoo.com/analysis-hama...BzdGNhdAN1cwRwdANzdG9yeXBhZ2UEdGVzdAM-;_ylv=3

GAZA/JERUSALEM (Reuters) - Political winds from the Arab Spring are filling the sails of the Palestinian Islamist organization Hamas, as it seeks a course out of international isolation to the forefront of the Palestinian national movement.

Hamas' ties to Syria and Iran are changing.

This week, the two top men in the 25-year-old organization dedicated to crushing the Jewish state and establishing Palestine "from the (Jordan) river to the sea" headed off in distinctly different directions for high-level talks, and they began to look intriguingly like rivals.

Hamas leader in exile Khaled Meshaal, long based in Syria, went to Jordan to see Western-backed King Abdullah, whose father made peace with Israel in 1994. Meshaal may move his headquarters there or to the Gulf emirate of Qatar, which brokered his first visit since Jordan expelled Hamas in 1999.

From the Gaza Strip where he serves as Hamas prime minister, Ismail Haniyeh set off for talks with Iranian President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad, Israel's sworn enemy.

Iran is displeased with Hamas over its failure to support Tehran's main Arab ally Syria in its crisis. A diplomatic source says Iran has provided no funds to Hamas since August.

Hamas operates behind a smokescreen of rhetoric. The workings of its collective leadership are notoriously hard to read. Spokesmen deny any internal power struggle or divisions.

But analysts believe Meshaal has decided to end his close association with a Syria now in crisis, to pursue reconciliation with the pro-peace Fatah movement of Palestinian President Mahmoud Abbas, and to soften his anti-peace stance.

"Meshaal has been showing a tendency towards more flexibility. He is sincere about accomplishing reconciliation and he was flexible about President Abbas' peace moves," Gaza political analyst Hani Habib said. "His position did not go down well with Gaza leaders."

Israeli analyst Matti Steinberg of Haifa University says Meshaal "quite clearly wants to advance reconciliation with Fatah" and to speak about a Palestinian state within the lines created by the 1967 Middle East war, rather than recovering the Palestine that existed before Israel's creation in 1948.

He is also ready to suspend the military jihad against Israel and go along with Abbas's idea of "popular resistance" through non-violent mass protests, Steinberg said. Hamas hardliners insist on the right to "armed resistance."

Analysts speculate that Meshaal's goal may be to end the isolation of his movement and make it an essential partner in Middle East negotiations, one that Israel and the West can no longer afford to ostracize as a terrorist group.

This would necessitate loosening ties with Iran.

LEADERSHIP VOTE

Meshaal, 55, surprised Hamas last month by announcing he would step down before an internal leadership vote due in March, after 14 years at the helm. Few analysts take this seriously.

They think he wants to be renominated to an unprecedented fourth term, after flushing out and defeating opponents of his new policies and asserting full control to lead the Islamist movement to the forefront in the Palestinian territories.

The political and spiritual roots of Hamas lie with the Sunni Arab Muslim Brotherhood, not with the Shi'ite Muslim radicalism of non-Arab Iran, which has funded and armed Hamas and Hezbollah in Lebanon as proxies to threaten Israel.

In a Middle East increasingly divided between Sunni and Shi'ite powers, Hamas is embarrassed by ties to Syrian President Bashar al-Assad and his Alawite minority who, with roots in Shi'ite Islam, are now on the verge of civil war with Syria's rebelling Sunni majority and its Muslim Brotherhood leaders.

Iran has certainly provided Hamas with money and -- according to Israel -- rockets and other weapons. But Shi'ite thinking, while not seen as a threat, is not accepted in Gaza. Hamas security has clamped down on attempts by its few supporters to build up a Shi'ite organization in the enclave.

After visits to Egypt, Tunisia, Turkey and Sudan this month, Haniyeh, 48, urged Abbas to cease peace talks and cooperation on security with the Israelis in the occupied West Bank.

"Now those who call for normalization with the occupier are the odd ones out," he said on Friday. Analysts say it is not clear whether Haniyeh, who had just made his first foreign tour in four years, sees himself as Meshaal's potential successor or simply his equal in Palestinian politics.

RELOCATION

If Meshaal moves to Jordan or Qatar, one of the most outspoken Arab critics of Syria's President Assad, Gaza analyst Ibrahim Abrash says it would mean more than just a relocation. "It would mean a move in politics too," he said.

But Gaza remains the stronghold of the movement.

"Haniyeh is sitting in Gaza and nothing has really changed, while Meshaal is looking for a new home and in flux. Given that, I would say Haniyeh is sitting pretty," said a Western diplomat.

Some in Hamas believe there is no need to take a softer line with Israel because Islamists now in the ascendancy in the region would deter any repeat of Israel's 2009 offensive to stop rocket fire from Gaza, in which some 1,400 Palestinians died.

Steinberg disagrees. "The Muslim Brothers don't want trouble with Israel from Gaza while they are consolidating power in Egypt, which will take several years," he says. "Meshaal is accommodating himself with the Muslim Brotherhood in Egypt."

Hamas and Fatah have been bitter rivals since 2007 when the Islamists seized Gaza, splitting the Palestinians in two. Last year they agreed to a reconciliation pact, but it has yet to be implemented in spirit by the two groups with opposing policies.

Hamas rejects a permanent accord with Israel. It says there may be a long-term truce allowing the creation of a Palestinian state -- a status Israel regards as merely a war postponed.

Displaying a leniency some in Hamas deplore, Meshaal now says efforts to clinch a deal with Israel should get more time.

In Steinberg's view, he is "ready to advance reconciliation with Fatah in order to achieve a position of controlling" the currently Fatah-dominated Palestine Liberation Organisation.

The PLO is the most important source of power for Abbas's Palestinian Authority, which Hamas sees as a stooge accepting agreements that relieve Israel of the burdens of occupation.

"Hamas' self-confidence has been boosted, and they are convinced that they could win a majority in the PLO," says Palestinian analyst Hani el Masri.

"But their main obstacle is Israel and the signed agreements between the Palestinian Authority and Israel ... At the moment Hamas does not have a clear position on signed agreements and responsibilities (with Israel)."

"Haniyeh is trying to portray himself as the coming leader of the Palestinians and their representative, and not just a leader of Hamas," says Abrash. "His moderate personality, his being in Gaza, in Palestine, and his speeches granted him wide popularity in the Arab and Muslim world, more than Meshaal."

(Reporting by Nidal al-Mughrabi. Additional reporting by Douglas Hamilton in Jerusalem and Jihan Abdallah in Ramallah; Writing by Douglas Hamilton; Editing by Samia Nakhoul)
 
Last edited:

Lemon law

Lifer
Nov 6, 2005
20,984
3
0
I will not necessarily disagree with the JediY version of recent events, but since the Palestinian people split in two circa 2005, its been a contest of strategies between Hamas and Fatah.

In one corner, is the Fatah led West Bank and East Jerusalem, who believes non violence is the way to win a Palestinian state.

In the other corner is the Hamas led Gaza strip who does not rule out violence as a tactic to get a Palestinian State.

And in the past of 57 years basically 57 years of Arifat type leadership of the Palestinian people.

Net progress towards a Palestinian state thus far is zero for the past, zero for Fatah, and zero for Hamas. Basically proving non violence and violence are equally ineffective with Israel.

But I might suggest that the Hamas strategy is proving more effective than the Fatah strategy at the present time. At least the people in Gaza don't have to worry about Israeli settlement and Fatah non violence has won Fatah 500,000 Israeli settler riff raff that steal everything not nailed down.

And its likely Hamas's limited use of violence may win them defacto statehood long before Fatah non-violence accomplishes anything. The fall of Mubarak has effectively ended the Israeli blockade of the Gaza economy, and later on Egypt will likely find it in their interests to form a buffer State called Gaza between itself and Israel.

Meanwhile as the people in Gaza can finally find gainful employment, why waste their time pegging overgrown bottle rockets into Israel and instead adopt the Hezzbollah strategy of stockpiling weapons in case Israel decides to invade again. And such a Hamas state can effectively get the permission of Egypt and Jordon to develop trade routes and link back up to their brothers in the West Bank. Meanwhile, Jordan would have every right to deny Israel even a drop of water from the River Jordan.
 

Hayabusa Rider

Admin Emeritus & Elite Member
Jan 26, 2000
50,879
4,265
126
But I might suggest that the Hamas strategy is proving more effective than the Fatah strategy at the present time. At least the people in Gaza don't have to worry about Israeli settlement and Fatah non violence has won Fatah 500,000 Israeli settler riff raff that steal everything not nailed down.

And its likely Hamas's limited use of violence may win them defacto statehood long before Fatah non-violence accomplishes anything.

Certainly terrorism will get attention, however it won't get statehood. Retaliation, yes, and that works to the benefit of Hamas as well. All they have to do is arrange to have a few of their own riff raff Palestinians killed.
The fall of Mubarak has effectively ended the Israeli blockade of the Gaza economy, and later on Egypt will likely find it in their interests to form a buffer State called Gaza between itself and Israel.
It might be in their interests to create state within their borders and call it Palestine. That has about an equal chance.

Meanwhile as the people in Gaza can finally find gainful employment, why waste their time pegging overgrown bottle rockets into Israel and instead adopt the Hezzbollah strategy of stockpiling weapons in case Israel decides to invade again. And such a Hamas state can effectively get the permission of Egypt and Jordon to develop trade routes and link back up to their brothers in the West Bank.

Well since the Palestinians won't get this state to begin with they can stockpile weapons in their new homeland which was once part of Egypt. If however they are a nation and they attack Israel then it isn't a political struggle it's a war, and the former Palestinian people can live in Cairo.

Meanwhile, Jordan would have every right to deny Israel even a drop of water from the River Jordan.
They can also pour gasoline over themselves and self immolate, which would have the same result as attempting to kill the Israelis. That's not a real concern because Jordan isn't as crazy as some here.
 

cybrsage

Lifer
Nov 17, 2011
13,021
0
0
When you look at the standard of living and the quality of life between the Gaza Strip and the West Bank, you will see that the West Bank is the preferred living location. People in the West Bank do not fear their politicians will provoke Israel to retaliate against them...those in the Gaza Strip do.
 

airdata

Diamond Member
Jul 11, 2010
4,987
0
0
Good thing we live and america and have no logical need to worry about Israeli & Palestinian affairs.
 

EagleKeeper

Discussion Club Moderator<br>Elite Member
Staff member
Oct 30, 2000
42,591
5
0
But I might suggest that the Hamas strategy is proving more effective than the Fatah strategy at the present time. At least the people in Gaza don't have to worry about Israeli settlement and Fatah non violence has won Fatah 500,000 Israeli settler riff raff that steal everything not nailed down.
Hamas does not have to worry about settlements in Gaza because Israel pulled all their people out in a futile dream that that would stop the attacks.

The fall of Mubarak has effectively ended the Israeli blockade of the Gaza economy, and later on Egypt will likely find it in their interests to form a buffer State called Gaza between itself and Israel.
Egypt already found it in their best interests; what is the difference. they do not want responsibility for Gaza.

Meanwhile as the people in Gaza can finally find gainful employment, why waste their time pegging overgrown bottle rockets into Israel and instead adopt the Hezzbollah strategy of stockpiling weapons in case Israel decides to invade again.
Hamas asked Israel to invade by their actions.




I do not know how much of your post is intended on being sarcasm and is an indication that you are finally accepting the reality of the ME politics or you still have those rose color glasses on

As demonstrated, it did not.
Which then also puts a damper on encouraging settlement removal on the West Bank
 

Lemon law

Lifer
Nov 6, 2005
20,984
3
0
I think its by in large Israeli fan clubbers who have the rose colored glasses as Israel plays its last cards in trying to resist and prevent a Palestinian State.

After all South African Apartheid lasted far longer but it was equally unsustainable.

But still Israeli fan clubbers would do well to ask themselves, is Israel more secure than they were a dozen years ago, or even six years ago , or even 1.5 years ago? And when I suggest the answer to all three questions in order is, no, hell, no, and now decidedly way worse off the case I make is far more compelling.

As Israel, in the same manner as the former state of South Africa is alienating its last allies. When UN chief Boon recently asked for some Israeli concessions to keep the Jordanian brokered talks going, he got same answer Netanyuhu gave to the EU of mind your own business. As it gets put in stark terms to a larger world, if the Jordanian talks produce nothing, the entire quartet may have to choose between 300 millions with oil, or 6.5 million Israeli JEWS who demand everything and produce nothing positive for the world as Israel becomes the largest threat to mid-east stability. Right now the AIPAC card being played by Israel has some value, but after 11/2012, it will diminish in Value. Leaving plenty of tome for Israel to overplay their hand.

But right now, Israeli fan clubbers can claim Israel is still on a roll and getting everything their own way. But as I say, nothing lasts forever and they that demand too much may end up with nothing. As future historians may regard Netanyuhu as the man who led Israel to disaster.
 
Last edited:

EagleKeeper

Discussion Club Moderator<br>Elite Member
Staff member
Oct 30, 2000
42,591
5
0
Now we have a new prediction date of damage to Israel.
Every other one has failed.

  • Egypt opens it doors.
    Blockade runners
    Military escorts
    Turkey rejecting Israel
    World embargo
    Israel caving into world pressure
    Fatah running the Palestinians w/ Hamas willing to play second fiddle
    Palestinians getting their own state approved by the UN last September
    Israel getting slapped by the Quartet for not talking with the Palestinians.
 
Last edited:

Lemon law

Lifer
Nov 6, 2005
20,984
3
0
Now we have a new prediction date of damage to Israel.
Every other one has failed.

  • Egypt opens it doors.
    Blockade runners
    Military escorts
    Turkey rejecting Israel
    World embargo
    Israel caving into world pressure
    Fatah running the Palestinians w/ Hamas willing to play second fiddle
    Palestinians getting their own state approved by the UN last September
    Israel getting slapped by the Quartet for not talking with the Palestinians.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Yet as strange as it seems, EK, all those things are starting to happen, when they may have been unthinkable ten years ago. Egypt is already opening its doors, Turkey has rejected Israel, Fatah and Hamas talking reunification, and yes Israel is starting to be dope slapped by the quartet. And yes the Palestinians are far closer to getting their own State approved by the UN than any times in history. All the changes I predicted are already occurring, but change is always slower than we think.
 

cybrsage

Lifer
Nov 17, 2011
13,021
0
0
I predent the Sun will eventually expand while it is dying, destroying the entire Earth. The awesome thing about my prediction is that it will actually come true. :)
 

EagleKeeper

Discussion Club Moderator<br>Elite Member
Staff member
Oct 30, 2000
42,591
5
0
Now we have a new prediction date of damage to Israel.
Every other one has failed.

  • Egypt opens it doors.
    Blockade runners
    Military escorts
    Turkey rejecting Israel
    World embargo
    Israel caving into world pressure
    Fatah running the Palestinians w/ Hamas willing to play second fiddle
    Palestinians getting their own state approved by the UN last September
    Israel getting slapped by the Quartet for not talking with the Palestinians.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Yet as strange as it seems, EK, all those things are starting to happen, when they may have been unthinkable ten years ago. Egypt is already opening its doors, Turkey has rejected Israel, Fatah and Hamas talking reunification, and yes Israel is starting to be dope slapped by the quartet. And yes the Palestinians are far closer to getting their own State approved by the UN than any times in history. All the changes I predicted are already occurring, but change is always slower than we think.
  • Egypt still has the entrance to Gaza closed up. they tried it opened and then slammed it shut
  • Turkey has not rejected Israel - if you recall, they begged Israel to come help them last year
  • Fatah and Hamas Reunification talks - they have elections coming up and Hamas is still expected to prevail. Fatah is just a figurehead as always since '08 - Hamas still has in charter the destruction of Israel
  • Israel is starting to be dope slapped by the quartet - when/where - The Palestinians walked away and were told to get back or else.
  • Palestinians are far closer to getting their own State approved by the UN - when, did not happen last Sept. The US and quartet has laid out the ground rules. The Palestinians refuse to listen and therefore are gettign nowwhere. Otherwise they would not be at the table.

Not a single change of anything for the better from your POV.

It does not take 3 years to setup blockade runners
It takes 10 minutes to issue an order to open the passageways between Gaza and Egypt
It takes 10 minutes for Turkey to issue an edict to embargo Israel

Nothing that you have stated/predicted has come through other than the Palestinians going to the UN for approval.
and that itself was shot down - DOA
 
Last edited:

Lemon law

Lifer
Nov 6, 2005
20,984
3
0
Keep telling yourself that EK, Israel has nothing to worry about, the mantra and fate of every former regime who resisted inevitable change too long.
 

EagleKeeper

Discussion Club Moderator<br>Elite Member
Staff member
Oct 30, 2000
42,591
5
0
Keep telling yourself that EK, Israel has nothing to worry about, the mantra and fate of every former regime who resisted inevitable change too long.

Israel has plenty to worry about.
the Palestinians have their sponsors - both sets do not desire peace.

All I have done is demonstrate that what you state&predict w/ respect to ME politics has yet to be proven correct.

You may want something to happen; but the Palestinians do not practice what they/you preach.
 

Lemon law

Lifer
Nov 6, 2005
20,984
3
0
Israel has plenty to worry about.
the Palestinians have their sponsors - both sets do not desire peace.

All I have done is demonstrate that what you state&predict w/ respect to ME politics has yet to be proven correct.

You may want something to happen; but the Palestinians do not practice what they/you preach.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Nor does Israel practice what they preach either. So what, Hamas does not recognize Israel's right to exist and Israel does not recognize the right of Hamas to exist either.

The point being, if Israeli inks a deal with the Palestinians people, both Israel, Hamas, and Fatah will all have to recognize each others right to exists.

The USA did not recognize the North Vietnamese as the legitimate representatives of South Vietnam, but it id not stop the USA in engaging in peace talks, the same was true in Korea, and its true now in Afghanistan.

Tell me again, EK, why Israel is the only nation on earth that has a right to refuse to negotiate with an entity it does not like. Oh but I forgot, Israel is only composed of fine upstanding human beings like settler parties, and the Palestinians are all sub humans who do not deserve any human rights, even in the land of their birth?
 

Karl Agathon

Golden Member
Sep 30, 2010
1,081
0
0
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Nor does Israel practice what they preach either. So what, Hamas does not recognize Israel's right to exist and Israel does not recognize the right of Hamas to exist either.

The point being, if Israeli inks a deal with the Palestinians people, both Israel, Hamas, and Fatah will all have to recognize each others right to exists.

The USA did not recognize the North Vietnamese as the legitimate representatives of South Vietnam, but it id not stop the USA in engaging in peace talks, the same was true in Korea, and its true now in Afghanistan.

Tell me again, EK, why Israel is the only nation on earth that has a right to refuse to negotiate with an entity it does not like. Oh but I forgot, Israel is only composed of fine upstanding human beings like settler parties, and the Palestinians are all sub humans who do not deserve any human rights, even in the land of their birth?


in theory they would have to, but the thing is, would they actually recognize one another?
 

JEDIYoda

Lifer
Jul 13, 2005
33,981
3,318
126
Tell me again, EK, why Israel is the only nation on earth that has a right to refuse to negotiate with an entity it does not like. Oh but I forgot, Israel is only composed of fine upstanding human beings like settler parties, and the Palestinians are all sub humans who do not deserve any human rights, even in the land of their birth?


That`s easy -- because the can!! Who are you Lemon law to put conditions on what Israel can and cannot do??

Tell me again, LL, why Israel in your opinion does not have the right to refuse to negotiate with an entity it does not like. Oh but I forgot, the Palestinians and Hamas are only composed of fine upstanding human beings who would never fire rockets or strap explosives on their children or fire laser guided rockets at Israeli school buses, and the Israelis are all sub humans who do not deserve to have secure borders or the ability to defend themselve, even in the land of their birth?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_Jews_in_the_Land_of_Israel
 

Lemon law

Lifer
Nov 6, 2005
20,984
3
0
That`s easy -- because the can!! Who are you Lemon law to put conditions on what Israel can and cannot do??

Tell me again, LL, why Israel in your opinion does not have the right to refuse to negotiate with an entity it does not like. Oh but I forgot, the Palestinians and Hamas are only composed of fine upstanding human beings who would never fire rockets or strap explosives on their children or fire laser guided rockets at Israeli school buses, and the Israelis are all sub humans who do not deserve to have secure borders or the ability to defend themselve, even in the land of their birth?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_Jews_in_the_Land_of_Israel
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Maybe point granted JediY, Israelis have equal human rights too. But why should I, as somewhat who believes in equal human rights for all support either Israel or the Palestinians? Or allow my US government to back only Israelis to the hilt at a cost of alienating the rest of the world.

I don't believe God gave Israel to only Israeli Jews and if you don't agree, sorry you will just have to get over it.

Because if you believe Israel can forever sustain itself by demanding their non existent God given right to dominate a mid-east of 300 million Arabs forever, while denying anyone's else having human rights, you JediY are crazy.

As it is I have a better vision for long term Israeli survival, and that involves Israel becoming a productive and welcome addition to the mid-east.

Wake up and smell the coffee JediY, as Israel is telling the entire quartet who will decide the their fate to go to hell. At this point Israel's lone resource is positive PR from AIPAC in the USA, but if Israel does something really stupid, that can change in a heartbeat.

Israeli's Bozo Netanyuhu is leading Israel off the deep end while Israeli support evaporates
world wide.
 

EagleKeeper

Discussion Club Moderator<br>Elite Member
Staff member
Oct 30, 2000
42,591
5
0
You can negotiate with the enemy IF they are willing to honor their agreement. Hamas is sworn to the destruction of Israel. NV and NK are not sworn to the destruction of the US. Makes a big difference in perspective.
 

Lemon law

Lifer
Nov 6, 2005
20,984
3
0
You can negotiate with the enemy IF they are willing to honor their agreement. Hamas is sworn to the destruction of Israel. NV and NK are not sworn to the destruction of the US. Makes a big difference in perspective.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
More Israeli BS that is going over like a lead balloon. Worse yet for Israel, after losing Egypt, the Israeli embargo that was dedicated to pushing Hamas to the brink of starvation is badly leaking. So why do regional Arabs need warships to escort freedom flotillas into the ports of Gaza when they can dock and Egypt and truck supplies into Gaza?

Meanwhile the Muslim Brotherhood who won the Egyptian elections, are saying they will be moderates not at all interested in attacking Israel in any way. But since its Israel that is guilty of breech on contract in the Sadat Israeli treaty, its very likely the MB government will step up imports into Gaza. Not a war like act in any way. And once Hamas can have the freedom to import and export, they can and will build their economy without a need to fire overgrown bottle rockets into Israel. Meanwhile King Abdullah of Jordan has viewed Israel with growing disgust since at least 2004, and will probably soon do what Egypt will do, namely break the Israeli blockade over the West Bank. Meanwhile to the Israeli North, Lebanon is not attacking Israel, but they sure are stocking piling missiles to prevent Israel attacking Lebanon. I assume Assad in Syria will soon fall of his own weight, but when Assad falls it will change nothing for Israel.

And then sharpen the world wide focus against Israel as the evil entity that without justification wants to retain what it can never own in the disputed territories.
 

cybrsage

Lifer
Nov 17, 2011
13,021
0
0
So why do regional Arabs need warships to escort freedom flotillas into the ports of Gaza


They are not "freedom flotillas", the blockade is legal:

Arguments supporting legality of blockade

Alan Dershowitz, professor of Law at Harvard Law School, wrote that the legality of blockades as a response to acts of war “is not subject to serious doubt.”[3] He likened Israel’s maritime blockade of Gaza to U.S. naval actions in Cuba during the Cuban Missile Crisis, which the U.S. had deemed lawful though not part of an armed conflict.[3]
Similarly, Allen Weiner, former U.S. State Department attorney and legal counselor at the American Embassy in The Hague, and now a Stanford Law School professor, said "the Israeli blockade itself against Gaza itself is not illegal".[23]
Ruth Wedgwood, a professor of International Law and Diplomacy at the School of Advanced International Studies at Johns Hopkins University, said that under the law of armed conflict, which would be in effect given Hamas's rocket attacks on Israel and Israel's responses, Israel has "a right to prevent even neutrals from shipping arms to [Hamas]".[5]

Eric Posner, international law professor at the University of Chicago Law School, noting that the raid had "led to wild accusations of illegality", wrote that blockades are lawful during times of armed conflict (such as the Coalition blockade of Iraq during the first Gulf War), and that "war-like conditions certainly exist between Israel and Hamas".[4] He compared Israel's blockade to the Union blockade by the Union against the Confederacy (a non-state) during the U.S. Civil War.[4] The U.S. Supreme Court later affirmed the legitimacy of that blockade.[4]
Philip Roche, a partner in the shipping disputes and risk management team with the London-headquartered international law firm Norton Rose, also said: "On the basis that Hamas is the ruling entity of Gaza, and Israel is in the midst of an armed struggle against that ruling entity, the blockade is legal."[24] The basis for that is the law of blockade, derived from international law that was codified in the 1909 London Declaration concerning the Laws of Naval War, and which was then updated in 1994 in the San Remo Manual on International Law Applicable to Armed Conflicts at Sea--"a legally recognized document".[24] He addressed the charge by Human Rights Watch that the blockade of a terrorist organization constitutes a collective penalty against civilians, ostensibly violating Article 33 of the fourth Geneva Convention, by saying "This argument won't stand up. Blockades and other forms of economic sanction are permitted in international law, which necessarily means that civilians will suffer through no fault of their own."[4]
International law Professor Ed Morgan of the University of Toronto, likewise, noting that it is clear that Israel and Hamas are in a state of armed conflict, which has been noted by the General Assembly to the Human Rights Council in its Goldstone Report, wrote that a blockade of an enemy’s coast is an established military tactic.[25] He pointed out that it is recognized as a means at the Security Council’s disposal under Article 42 of the UN Charter, and is similarly set forth in Article 539 of the Canadian Forces manual Counter-Insurgency Operations.[25]

He wrote:
Having announced its blockade, Israel had no obligation to take the ships’ crew at their word as to the nature of the cargo. The blockading party has the right to fashion the arrangements, including search at a nearby port, under which passage of humanitarian goods is permitted.[25]
U.S. Vice President Joe Biden said "Israel has a right to know – they're at war with Hamas – has a right to know whether or not arms are being smuggled in. It's legitimate for Israel to say, 'I don't know what's on that ship. These guys are dropping ... 3,000 rockets on my people.'"[26]
Abbas Al Lawati, a Dubai-based Gulf News journalist on board the flotilla, opined that Israel is likely to cite the Gaza–Jericho Agreement (Annex I, Article XI) which vests Israel with the responsibility for security along the coastline and the Sea of Gaza.[18] The agreement stipulates that Israel may take any measures necessary against vessels suspected of being used for terrorist activities or for smuggling arms, ammunition, drugs, goods, or for any other illegal activity.[27]
Professor Wedgwood opined that the goal of the flotilla was to: "denude Israel of what it thinks it was guaranteed in the 1993 Oslo Accords which preceded the Gaza-Jericho Agreement, which is the control of the external borders of Gaza and West Bank.... The problem ... is that you could easily have a rearming of Hamas, which caused a terrible conflict."[5]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Legal_assessments_of_the_Gaza_flotilla_raid
 

Lemon law

Lifer
Nov 6, 2005
20,984
3
0
Jesus Christ on a crutch, cybrsage, you lose the argument with me the second you cite what amounts a a human turd like Alan Dershowitz. There ain't a dimes worth of difference between Adolph Hitler and Alan as far as I am concerned. As Alan uses the good German argument that always flops in war crimes tribunals.

But still go ahead cybersage, claim the Israeli blockade of Gaza is legal? What happens when Egypt tells Israel they won't support the Israel blockade of Gaza any longer? Which is already happening.

Is that a crime on the part of Egypt? Especially when parts of the UN and many human rights advocate say there is no legal justification for the Israeli blockade

And as Hamas now does it diplomacy with other Arab States and are able to build their economy, what justification will Israel have if Hamas quits attacking Israel in any way?

That is precisely the Israeli problem right now, its harder and harder for Israel to claim they are the victims when Israel is oppressing 3.5 million people, holding them without any human rights, and then pretending only Israelis are the victims.

What Israel will likely soon face is more and more Martin Luther King type non violence protests tactics. That Israel always meets with Israeli violence. Just a day or two ago the IDF hit a journalist covering a non protest with a gas grenade, and worse yet, its recorded on video for all to see.
 

EagleKeeper

Discussion Club Moderator<br>Elite Member
Staff member
Oct 30, 2000
42,591
5
0
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
More Israeli BS that is going over like a lead balloon. Worse yet for Israel, after losing Egypt, the Israeli embargo that was dedicated to pushing Hamas to the brink of starvation is badly leaking. So why do regional Arabs need warships to escort freedom flotillas into the ports of Gaza when they can dock and Egypt and truck supplies into Gaza?

Meanwhile the Muslim Brotherhood who won the Egyptian elections, are saying they will be moderates not at all interested in attacking Israel in any way. But since its Israel that is guilty of breech on contract in the Sadat Israeli treaty, its very likely the MB government will step up imports into Gaza. Not a war like act in any way. And once Hamas can have the freedom to import and export, they can and will build their economy without a need to fire overgrown bottle rockets into Israel. Meanwhile King Abdullah of Jordan has viewed Israel with growing disgust since at least 2004, and will probably soon do what Egypt will do, namely break the Israeli blockade over the West Bank. Meanwhile to the Israeli North, Lebanon is not attacking Israel, but they sure are stocking piling missiles to prevent Israel attacking Lebanon. I assume Assad in Syria will soon fall of his own weight, but when Assad falls it will change nothing for Israel.

And then sharpen the world wide focus against Israel as the evil entity that without justification wants to retain what it can never own in the disputed territories.


You were the one predicting that warships would be used to escort aid ships straight to Gaza.

Where are they?:\
 

cybrsage

Lifer
Nov 17, 2011
13,021
0
0
But still go ahead cybrsage, claim the Israeli blockade of Gaza is legal? What happens when Egypt tells Israel they won't support the Israel blockade of Gaza any longer? Which is already happening.

I think you are confusing water, which is where you will find a flotilla, and land, which is where you find the Egyptian border with Gaza. Hint, water is the blue stuff you see on the map.

And as Hamas now does it diplomacy with other Arab States and are able to build their economy, what justification will Israel have if Hamas quits attacking Israel in any way?

IF HAMAS does that, Israel will stop the blockade. As it currently stands, they average one missile attack a day. All Israel wants is for HAMAS to stop attacking them. If they stop, things can start to change for the better for the Palestinians.

What Israel will likely soon face is more and more Martin Luther King type non violence protests tactics. That Israel always meets with Israeli violence. Just a day or two ago the IDF hit a journalist covering a non protest with a gas grenade, and worse yet, its recorded on video for all to see.

Gas grenades are often used to disperse crowds. This is called using non-lethal force.

Care you link to the specific event you are talking about, though?
 

Lemon law

Lifer
Nov 6, 2005
20,984
3
0
You were the one predicting that warships would be used to escort aid ships straight to Gaza.

Where are they?:\
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
As I told you before EK, why bother now that Israel has lost any support from Egypt to enforce is blockade of Hamas in Gaza. The Israeli blockade of Gaza is simply a dead issue
when aid ships can simply dock in Egyptian ports and Israel can only look on and cry Wah Wah Wah for all the Egytian people care. Egypt may be not allowing in unrestricted weapons
imports into Gaza, but cement, building materials, food, and economic aid have already reduced Gaza unemployment to drop for 50% to 30% and its likely to continue to drop as the economy of Gaza becomes self sustaining. Meanwhile, the peace wing of Hamas can finally bring prosperity to the people of Gaza, while the military wing of Hamas, who still will not recognize the right of Israel to exist can explore diplomacy options with all States and Fatah that surround Israel.

In short, EK, the events of the Arab Spring have changed everything, while both you and Israel busily pretend nothing has changed. Old options are no longer needed while new options replace them.
 

Lemon law

Lifer
Nov 6, 2005
20,984
3
0
Cybrsae asserts, "Gas grenades are often used to disperse crowds. This is called using non-lethal force.

Care you link to the specific event you are talking about, though? "

Two things to say, Bull Conner used fires hoses as non lethal force too, but it still horrified the entire USA during the civil rights movement of the mid 1960's.

And if you want your link, with the video too, be my guest-----------------------------

http://www.haaretz.com/news/diploma...-by-idf-grenade-in-west-bank-protest-1.411029

Nothing new here ever since Rachel Corrie and before. The one thing Israel can't permit is non violent protest.