An interesting article about marriage and men and women's roles in modern society

PingSpike

Lifer
Feb 25, 2004
21,754
599
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Can women beat men at their own game?

Its a wordy and long read. Not sure I agree with all of it, but it introduces some interesting observations.

The article actually has some pretty rough things to say about both sexes...basically that males are inherently selfish and will never pick up the slack of child rearing, and that women are inherently nurturing and less agressive so they will never 'win' (whatever that means) in business realm that men dominate.

It also talks about marriage and how there is little benefit for men anymore since the clear cut roles are washed away...which is partially responsible for the increase in divorces and the amount of people who choose to never marry. (Some of this I agree with, however he only touches on the fact that society no longer punishes women for fleeing from unhappy marriages..vaguely refering to it as a lack of dominance.)

More interesting to me was the part about society's attempts to make men and women full equals with the same abilities...and how most people realize there are certain things each sex is better at and they are simply denying them.

Also interesting was the part about women no longer having a clear cut position in society, and how feminist and traditional viewpoints clash with one another regarding which way of life is 'correct'. Men, however, have remained largely unchanged in their position in the world....perhaps because we know no other way, or perhaps because we just feel no pressure too.

Despite contemporary values claiming the desirability of males with a female portion of sensitivity and nurturance, the actual behavior of even those women who give lip-service encouragement to men who claim to agree casts serious doubt on the attractiveness to women of such men.

I think thats true, and men have largely ignored that apparent stimulus...partially because it goes against our natural instincts and largely because as pointed out, there is no real reward for exhibiting those values. Aggression is still much more rewarded as a male trait then sensitivity is. Particularly when dealing with other males, and to large extent when dealing with women from an attraction standpoint.
 

ggnl

Diamond Member
Jul 2, 2004
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I don't believe any of the bullshit about biological roles. Women are meek and men are aggressive because they are trained from birth to be that way. Biology plays a very small part in it.
 

glugglug

Diamond Member
Jun 9, 2002
5,340
1
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Um, in my experience, women are a lot more aggressive then men, just not physically.
 

Ryan

Lifer
Oct 31, 2000
27,519
2
81
Originally posted by: ggnl
I don't believe any of the bullshit about biological roles. Women are meek and men are aggressive because they are trained from birth to be that way. Biology plays a very small part in it.

Correctomundo!
 

StageLeft

No Lifer
Sep 29, 2000
70,150
5
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Originally posted by: ggnl
I don't believe any of the bullshit about biological roles. Women are meek and men are aggressive because they are trained from birth to be that way. Biology plays a very small part in it.
Highly unlikely. Men and women are physically very different, in great part because of hormones. Given that hormones can influence expression and personality there is much reason to think that men and women have inherently different personalities.

I'm all for "equal rights", but as with the division of labour in society, sometimes it has to happen in the home as well. I don't know that women are inherently better at ironing (although I sure as hell can't do it), and men better at mowing the lawn, but as long as neither is taking advantage of the other, then there is no real problem, in my eyes, in some of the traditional roles carrying forward. Mrskoorb and I split our influence 50/50 with each other. I definitely don't dominate, but if the kitchen is dirty she'll be more likely to clean it, and if a bill needs to be paid it will be me. Really there is no reason to change it.
 

AMDZen

Lifer
Apr 15, 2004
12,589
0
76
Originally posted by: PingSpike
The article actually has some pretty rough things to say about both sexes...basically that males are inherently selfish and will never pick up the slack of child rearing, and that women are inherently nurturing and less agressive so they will never 'win' (whatever that means) in business realm that men dominate.

I completely agree here. And a lot of what he says about marriage strikes me as truth too. I honestly can't imagine marrying in this day and age. I just don't see it happening, and it has a lot to do with the fact that I'm not willing to have my kids raised by a day care center.

People sometimes wonder whats wrong with America, or society these days as a whole. How things like the "Red Lake" shooting (latest Columbine) happened. These type of issues start at home. I honestly feel the next generation will even be worse. You think our kids our running rampant now? What about the next gen who have been raised by strangers, and when they are home - don't have a male or female figure to look up to? All the single parents these days, and more and more getting raised by two males or two females? This isn't really relevant, I just wonder how this will effect the upbringing of children.
 

dud

Diamond Member
Feb 18, 2001
7,635
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This opinion paper was written in 1993. Some things have changed in the last 12 years.
 

Jfrag Teh Foul

Diamond Member
Jul 18, 2001
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Originally posted by: rbloedow
Originally posted by: ggnl
I don't believe any of the bullshit about biological roles. Women are meek and men are aggressive because they are trained from birth to be that way. Biology plays a very small part in it.

Correctomundo!

No doubt. Look at Japanese men now and compare them to Japanese men of oh say... WWII era.
 

DougK62

Diamond Member
Mar 28, 2001
8,035
6
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Originally posted by: Jfrag Teh Foul
Originally posted by: rbloedow
Originally posted by: ggnl
I don't believe any of the bullshit about biological roles. Women are meek and men are aggressive because they are trained from birth to be that way. Biology plays a very small part in it.

Correctomundo!

No doubt. Look at Japanese men now and compare them to Japanese men of oh say... WWII era.

LOL - you guys are all quite clueless.

 

StageLeft

No Lifer
Sep 29, 2000
70,150
5
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Originally posted by: AMDZen
People sometimes wonder whats wrong with America, or society these days as a whole. How things like the "Red Lake" shooting (latest Columbine) happened. These type of issues start at home. I honestly feel the next generation will even be worse. You think our kids our running rampant now? What about the next gen who have been raised by strangers, and when they are home - don't have a male or female figure to look up to? All the single parents these days, and more and more getting raised by two males or two females? This isn't really relevant, I just wonder how this will effect the upbringing of children.
Yeah it's depressing, and something that I think (hope!) a lot of new parents (or old ones!) worry about. Our kids are increasingly raised not only by others, but by televisions and other forms of "baby sitting". I think this lack of guidance all too often makes impulsive, consumeristic, hedonist individuals with a poor sense of morals, caused by their lack of consistent guidance from a figure above them who cares more about their well being than trying to deprive them of their advertising bucks.
This opinion paper was written in 1993. Some things have changed in the last 12 years.
That's pretty dismissive.
 

Geekbabe

Moderator Emeritus<br>Elite Member
Oct 16, 1999
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www.theshoppinqueen.com
Originally posted by: dud
This opinion paper was written in 1993. Some things have changed in the last 12 years.

They certainly have.As to "traditional" sex roles, I do both, I clean and cook, I caretake for family members when they're ill.However I have also worked at paid employment since I was 13 and can proudly state that I've never relied upon a man to put food on my table.

Yes a woman with full fiscal responsibility cause I learned early on that the only person who's going to look out for me is me and it's a good thing too because my kids would have starved to death otherwise.
 

Jfrag Teh Foul

Diamond Member
Jul 18, 2001
3,146
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Originally posted by: DougK62
Originally posted by: Jfrag Teh Foul
Originally posted by: rbloedow
Originally posted by: ggnl
I don't believe any of the bullshit about biological roles. Women are meek and men are aggressive because they are trained from birth to be that way. Biology plays a very small part in it.

Correctomundo!

No doubt. Look at Japanese men now and compare them to Japanese men of oh say... WWII era.

LOL - you guys are all quite clueless.

Care to elaborate or just make statements without any substance to back it?
 

PingSpike

Lifer
Feb 25, 2004
21,754
599
126
Originally posted by: Jfrag Teh Foul
Originally posted by: rbloedow
Originally posted by: ggnl
I don't believe any of the bullshit about biological roles. Women are meek and men are aggressive because they are trained from birth to be that way. Biology plays a very small part in it.

Correctomundo!

No doubt. Look at Japanese men now and compare them to Japanese men of oh say... WWII era.

Clearly society plays a great role...but why are things the way they are in the first place? Biology. Why aren't there an equal number of societies that displayed aggressive females.

From an evolutionary standpoint, it makes sense for women to be less agressive. They aren't as strong physically. And while a society/civilization can survive the slaughter of the bulk of its male population and recover within a generation...the same cannot be said about the loss of the female population.

There have been very few societies in history that had their female population fight along side men, and they pretty much died out as quickly as they came into being.
 

ggnl

Diamond Member
Jul 2, 2004
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Originally posted by: AMDZen
Originally posted by: PingSpike
The article actually has some pretty rough things to say about both sexes...basically that males are inherently selfish and will never pick up the slack of child rearing, and that women are inherently nurturing and less agressive so they will never 'win' (whatever that means) in business realm that men dominate.

I completely agree here. And a lot of what he says about marriage strikes me as truth too. I honestly can't imagine marrying in this day and age. I just don't see it happening, and it has a lot to do with the fact that I'm not willing to have my kids raised by a day care center.

People sometimes wonder whats wrong with America, or society these days as a whole. How things like the "Red Lake" shooting (latest Columbine) happened. These type of issues start at home. I honestly feel the next generation will even be worse. You think our kids our running rampant now? What about the next gen who have been raised by strangers, and when they are home - don't have a male or female figure to look up to? All the single parents these days, and more and more getting raised by two males or two females? This isn't really relevant, I just wonder how this will effect the upbringing of children.


I think you were on track until you equated a bad home with same sex-couples. I think a child reared by two loving and nurturing dads or moms will be much better off than a child raised by lazy, emotionally unavailable, heterosexual parents.

My parents divorced when I was a small child. I didn't have a mom to look up to. My father did everything he could to give me the attention I needed and I grew up a relatively well-adjusted child despite lack of a mother's role in my upbringing. Maybe it's because my father didn't belive he had to conform to the traditional male stereotypes.

Kids aren't running wild because of the changing structure of families, it's because of lazy, inattentative parents.
 

DougK62

Diamond Member
Mar 28, 2001
8,035
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Originally posted by: Jfrag Teh Foul
Care to elaborate or just make statements without any substance to back it?

There has been TONS of research about hormones. It's quite obvious that males DO have a biologically more agressive nature. It's the result of testosterone and several other ingredients. Sure, society plays a huge role in development, but the underlying biology is still there.

Do you think that it's just some random fluke that almost all of the dominant people in history are male?

 

StageLeft

No Lifer
Sep 29, 2000
70,150
5
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Kids aren't running wild because of the changing structure of families, it's because of lazy, inattentative parents.
Yes, I'd rather a kid raised by three lesbians who care, than a man and woman who don't. I know, quite closely, a couple of families with children and in both cases the man works and the woman doesn't, and when he gets home he dicks off in front of the tv or the computer. It's pathetic. Will these kids grow up with memories of going out with their dad to the park? No. My dad used to always take us on day trips to the park or the beach or flying kites or whatever. Obviously their mother needs to be in on all this too, but dads these days are too fat and lazy to get off their ass. I don't mean to imply that it was always roses with caring fathers, and nowadays they all suck, but my point is that lazy selfish parents suck!
 

preslove

Lifer
Sep 10, 2003
16,754
63
91
Women react different to Oxytocin, the "love hormone," as well as other powerful hormones.
 

Jfrag Teh Foul

Diamond Member
Jul 18, 2001
3,146
0
0
Originally posted by: DougK62
Originally posted by: Jfrag Teh Foul
Care to elaborate or just make statements without any substance to back it?

There has been TONS of research about hormones. It's quite obvious that males DO have a biologically more agressive nature. It's the result of testosterone and several other ingredients. Sure, society plays a huge role in development, but the underlying biology is still there.

Do you think that it's just some random fluke that almost all of the dominant people in history are male?


Then explain to me the total reversal of historical male aggressiveness from Japanese men in a single generation following WWII.

And to the question, I think it stems from behavior training throughout history because there are striking exceptions to that rule... not just random encounters. Not to mention the political aggressiveness displayed by women thoughout all of history.
 

Geekbabe

Moderator Emeritus<br>Elite Member
Oct 16, 1999
32,207
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www.theshoppinqueen.com
Originally posted by: preslove
Women react different to Oxytocin, the "love hormone," as well as other powerful hormones.

The power of Oxytocin, keeps children fed in single mother run homes, it keeps sick elderly parents out of nursing homes.It gives ordinary women the strength to carry life burdens just as strongly as any man would.
 

ggnl

Diamond Member
Jul 2, 2004
5,095
1
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Originally posted by: PingSpike
Originally posted by: Jfrag Teh Foul
Originally posted by: rbloedow
Originally posted by: ggnl
I don't believe any of the bullshit about biological roles. Women are meek and men are aggressive because they are trained from birth to be that way. Biology plays a very small part in it.

Correctomundo!

No doubt. Look at Japanese men now and compare them to Japanese men of oh say... WWII era.

Clearly society plays a great role...but why are things the way they are in the first place? Biology. Why aren't there an equal number of societies that displayed aggressive females.

From an evolutionary standpoint, it makes sense for women to be less agressive. They aren't as strong physically. And while a society/civilization can survive the slaughter of the bulk of its male population and recover within a generation...the same cannot be said about the loss of the female population.

There have been very few societies in history that had their female population fight along side men, and they pretty much died out as quickly as they came into being.

It was societal then and it's societal now. The gender roles used to make sense but in today's world they no longer do. It seems the world is evolving faster than we are, and consequently we are stuck with outdated beliefs. Gender roles are only one of our outdated beliefs (the biggest and most destructive is religion). Things will change, they already are. It's just going to take generations to fully play out.
 

preslove

Lifer
Sep 10, 2003
16,754
63
91
Originally posted by: Geekbabe
Originally posted by: preslove
Women react different to Oxytocin, the "love hormone," as well as other powerful hormones.

The power of Oxytocin, keeps children fed in single mother run homes, it keeps sick elderly parents out of nursing homes.It gives ordinary women the strength to carry life burdens just as strongly as any man would.

yup, or maybe even "more" strongly. Glad I ain't no woah-man.
 

AMDZen

Lifer
Apr 15, 2004
12,589
0
76
Originally posted by: ggnl
Originally posted by: AMDZen
Originally posted by: PingSpike
The article actually has some pretty rough things to say about both sexes...basically that males are inherently selfish and will never pick up the slack of child rearing, and that women are inherently nurturing and less agressive so they will never 'win' (whatever that means) in business realm that men dominate.

I completely agree here. And a lot of what he says about marriage strikes me as truth too. I honestly can't imagine marrying in this day and age. I just don't see it happening, and it has a lot to do with the fact that I'm not willing to have my kids raised by a day care center.

People sometimes wonder whats wrong with America, or society these days as a whole. How things like the "Red Lake" shooting (latest Columbine) happened. These type of issues start at home. I honestly feel the next generation will even be worse. You think our kids our running rampant now? What about the next gen who have been raised by strangers, and when they are home - don't have a male or female figure to look up to? All the single parents these days, and more and more getting raised by two males or two females? This isn't really relevant, I just wonder how this will effect the upbringing of children.


I think you were on track until you equated a bad home with same sex-couples. I think a child reared by two loving and nurturing dads or moms will be much better off than a child raised by lazy, emotionally unavailable, heterosexual parents.

My parents divorced when I was a small child. I didn't have a mom to look up to. My father did everything he could to give me the attention I needed and I grew up a relatively well-adjusted child despite lack of a mother's role in my upbringing. Maybe it's because my father didn't belive he had to conform to the traditional male stereotypes.

Kids aren't running wild because of the changing structure of families, it's because of lazy, inattentative parents.

I agree actually. Its better then single parents any way. I just wonder how it will affect children, since there isn't much data on this yet or much that isn't biased one way or the other. I just mentioned it because its going to become very common place, and I wonder how it will affect the next gen. I'm not saying I have a problem with children getting raised by two males or two females, but I admit I worry about how it will affect some of them
 

StageLeft

No Lifer
Sep 29, 2000
70,150
5
0
Our personality is the mixture of environment and biological disposition. Men and women have different dispositions, so it's not unreasonable to expect that these significant differences can manifest themselves in different personalities, even when both are in the same environment.