An important scientist resigns, partly due to the ClimateGate scandal

[sandorski]

Wow - you're posting, but all I hear is "moooo..."

You should learn to think for yourself rather than blindly accept what people tell you :whiste:

That's what you call thinking for yourself? Fail. The best thinking you can do is to Know that your self discovered Ideas on a subject are best kept to yourself when it covers an established expertise with Thousands of Experts whose sole focus is on that subject. Listen to what they Know first, you'll likely discover that they covered your Thoughts/Ideas a long time ago, finding Merit or None in them, then moved on to more complex things.

 

[WildHorse]

``

 

[werepossum]

Why is he "important scientist?"

There's no good way to tell you this, so I'll just come out and say it: some scientists can be important even if they aren't experts in climatology.

Sorry, but you're old enough to know now.

 

[Linflas]

Lewis is accepted by you and other climate-deniers as an authority on the alleged corruption in science. But what's the criterion for that acceptance? That he was a good scientist in the past? If that's the criterion, then a boatload of equally eminent scientists who disagree with him surely wins the argument. If not, then you're just arbitrarily cherry-picking scientists that agree with your pre-determined conclusions and arbitrarily rejecting a vastly greater number of scientists who disagree.

As I've pointed out in many, many threads: A small percentage of scientists in ANY field disagree with the consensus. So finding a few who support the non-consensus view proves exactly nothing.

If you can't see just now tendentious your strategy is, you're even more of a village idiot than PJABBER is.

A village idiot is one that consciously attempts to co-opt a term with a concrete meaning and apply it to people that disagree with your point of view regarding climate change. I find the use of the term "denier" and the attempt to somehow imply that people that don't share your view of climate change to be the moral equivalent Holocaust Deniers to be repugnant. In case you can't figure out why it is so offensive here is the concrete evidence you have to blind yourself to when you deny the Holocaust took place.

 

[sandorski]

sandorski,

Yes, I agree with your post.
In real life I see it all the time.
In addition, it also takes multiple scientists nowadays to do big science. No more of Nikola Tesla's sequestered alone in secrecy. Now we need teams.

But WHY?

So the issue, it seems to humble me, is that once $ has such a visible role in any scenario, IS IT REALLY SILL SCIENCE?

Or is it, as I think, really converted into a "go fetch" mission? Your assignment, for XYZ $$$, is to support whatever is advantageous to my commercial interests?

So then the go fetch people really are not being scientists, are they? No.

Man I'm having trouble habituating to this new keyboard. So I blame any typos on that!

Low Lying Knowledge has been discovered, for the most part. It gets increasingly complex and beyond the scope of most Individual Minds. It even goes beyond Individual Sciences in many cases, such as in GW/GHG/GCC where Chemistry/Physics/Climatology and other Sciences are involved in one form or another. If there were no Funding and Science was made into a Hobby, one Scientist might discover one thing related to the Issue(s), while another might discover something else related to it, but no one makes the link between the 2 to see that it's part of a bigger Issue.

Without sufficient Funding and Teams of Scientists, Space Travel or Nuclear Fission would not currently exist. You could also say good bye to PCs and the Internet.

 

[shira]

A village idiot is one that consciously attempts to co-opt a term with a concrete meaning and apply it to people that disagree with your point of view regarding climate change. I find the use of the term "denier" and the attempt to somehow imply that people that don't share your view of climate change to be the moral equivalent Holocaust Deniers to be repugnant. In case you can't figure out why it is so offensive here is the concrete evidence you have to blind yourself to when you deny the Holocaust took place.

Interesting how you completely ignored the main thrust of my post, which annihilated your hero-worship of this over-the-hill ex-physicist, and now you're doing your best to sidetrack the discussion into a hissy fit about terminology.

Funny how you didn't find Lewis's words - attacking anyone who believes anthropogenic is real and serious - so offensive. Let see, what did the old coot say? . . . .

It is of course, the global warming scam

It is the greatest and most successful pseudoscientific fraud I have seen in my long life as a physicist.

I don't believe that any real physicist, nay scientist, can read that stuff without revulsion. I would almost make that revulsion a definition of the word scientist.

But I guess disrespectful language is okay if it's used against the point of view YOU disagree with.

 

[MooseNSquirrel]

Deniers find scientist who disagrees with status quo and elevate him to exalted status.

News at 6.

 

[werepossum]

Deniers find scientist who disagrees with status quo and elevate him to exalted status.

News at 6.

Um, he was previously at an exalted status. There are only those who would destroy him for his blasphemy, and those who would leave him there.

 

[monovillage]

Interesting how you completely ignored the main thrust of my post, which annihilated your hero-worship of this over-the-hill ex-physicist, and now you're doing your best to sidetrack the discussion into a hissy fit about terminology.

Funny how you didn't find Lewis's words - attacking anyone who believes anthropogenic is real and serious - so offensive. Let see, what did the old coot say? . . . .







But I guess disrespectful language is okay if it's used against the point of view YOU disagree with.

I guess the difference is that YOU are using the language.

 

[GoPackGo]

Deniers find scientist who disagrees with status quo and elevate him to exalted status.

News at 6.

you people act as if Physics and Climate Science have nothing to do with each other.

 

[monovillage]

you people act as if Physics and Climate Science have nothing to do with each other.

The way that the IPCC and the hockey team practice climate science, they don't. In fact they don't have much to do with any hard sciences, but let me computer model that for you.

 

[monovillage]

APS responds to Dr. Lewis.
This is an article at Wattsupwiththat which deconstructs the response, some might consider it unfair so they can click the link for the actual words

http://wattsupwiththat.com/2010/10/...the-aps-response-to-dr-hal-lewis-resignation/

http://www.aps.org/about/pressreleases/haroldlewis.cfm

 

[MooseNSquirrel]

Um, he was previously at an exalted status. There are only those who would destroy him for his blasphemy, and those who would leave him there.

Right, I forgot you had a poster of him on your wall BEFORE he did this. In fact, as I recall, you have referenced the man numerous times in other climate related threads.

you people act as if Physics and Climate Science have nothing to do with each other.

You people act like a fish needs a bicycle.

 

[werepossum]

Right, I forgot you had a poster of him on your wall BEFORE he did this. In fact, as I recall, you have referenced the man numerous times in other climate related threads.



You people act like a fish needs a bicycle.

Um, no. I have no posters of any men, nor even any of women. True, it is a supreme failing of this world that the significance of scientists is not measured by the number of times he is referenced in Werepossum forum posts, but that is the hard truth. Oddly, I seem to accept this better than do you. Perhaps this is due to my superior understanding of the respective roles of science and religion.

 

[monovillage]

"True, it is a supreme failing of this world that the significance of scientists is not measured by the number of times he is referenced in Werepossum forum posts, but that is the hard truth."

I freaking laughed so hard i almost passed out, TY Werepossum

 

[werepossum]

"True, it is a supreme failing of this world that the significance of scientists is not measured by the number of times he is referenced in Werepossum forum posts, but that is the hard truth."

I freaking laughed so hard i almost passed out, TY Werepossum

No problem, I aim to please.

 

[DominionSeraph]

Holiness is a state of grace. It either exists or it does not.

-er is not typically used in binary conditions.

"I am DominionSerapher than you."

Seems unnecessarily ambiguous. I am DominionSeraph. You are not.

The determination is not made by mortals, but it may be perceived or it may be inferred by them with greater or lesser accuracy and always subject to the fallibility inherent in being of the mortal coil.

Ok, so you made an assertion that is full of holes by the very structure which defines it, with the source of that structure being the unsupported assertions of ancient goat herders... and yet it is the confidence level of modern science you're having a problem with?

That's so audacious, I do believe some excrement just attained a state of grace.

Methinks you need to take a long, hard look at why you believe anything you believe if you're using the Bible as the basis for anything.

Are you familiar with the Gettier problem?

I'm familiar with the truth table for implication. The Gettier problem looks to say nothing but a false premise or an invalid inference can lead to a conclusion that is either true or false.
But it is only true premises with a valid inference that must lead to a true conclusion. Of course we still have the problem of divining the truth of the premises as well as the question of what defines validity.

Anyway, I'm a pragmatic solipsist. Chew on that for a while.

 

[MooseNSquirrel]

Um, no. I have no posters of any men, nor even any of women. True, it is a supreme failing of this world that the significance of scientists is not measured by the number of times he is referenced in Werepossum forum posts, but that is the hard truth. Oddly, I seem to accept this better than do you. Perhaps this is due to my superior understanding of the respective roles of science and religion.

You see that unidentified object flying over your head?

That's the point you just missed.

 

[piasabird]

What makes this supposed scientest important? Did he win the nobel prize for physics? Did he invent anything that actually helped human kind? Did he make a breakthrough in Chemistry?

What have you done for me lately?

 

[shira]

He's whining because he was counting on abusing the rigidity of the rules, but the system went organic on him.

The APS is physics, not climatology. And "climategate" wasn't even about climatology, so even climatologists can shitcan it.
Climategate just falls under sociology/psychology.

When I'm dealing with a YEC, am I going to crap out an entire textbook on radiometric dating when it's obvious he's just sifting through what I say for anything that will let him hold onto his belief, and completely ignoring the larger picture in which the cross-checks don't give room for his position? No. Not only is it a ton of work, he'd lose interest because he'd no longer be the center of attention. So I might blow him off, or I might play things one sided in the hopes that he'll hit the wall when it comes to questions before I have to break out the entire textbook of answers.
Is this, "Radiometric Dating-gate?" Nope. It has nothing to do with the science. How I choose to respond to a Fundie's mental makeup doesn't impact the underlying geology and physics one bit.

Intellectual honesty does not require that you approach everybody robotically. If somebody is a joke, they can be treated as a toy. If someone's being a bother, they can be treated as an annoyance.
The sad fact is, not everyone warrants being taken seriously. Your typical Norm strongly holds dozens of unfounded beliefs, but it's just not worth the effort to take each aside, trace out their tangles, and work them through it step-by-step. Even your typical genius has issues, but at least with them you can generally cram the basics of two thousand years of philosophy into an hour or two and then work from there.

There just aren't enough people in the upper echelons to cover the workload that would be required to bring everybody up to our level. We have to do triage.
The stupid and the emotionally damaged don't make the cut.



Most definitely.
You don't find many creos in the life sciences or YEC's in paleontology.

My Google-fu shows he was in high energy physics in the '40's and solid state in the '50's.



FYI, I don't care. Physicist is not the same as philosopher. That at one time he was useful in his one narrow field does not render him immune to senility, or grant that he is competent in any other aspect of life.

Apparently you are unschooled in philosophy if you've been caught by such a surface feature of the Appeal to Authority fallacy.

Well said (and well written).

Isn't it interesting that climate-change deniers act as though climatologists are obligated to waste their time dealing with those who (the climatologists know) have no serious interest in furthering the science. Climatologists (the deniers insist) aren't allowed to use their judgment as to when to engage and when to opt out. If - God forbid - climatologists choose to blow off the time wasters, that must be evidence of the Big Conspiracy.

 

[werepossum]

You see that unidentified object flying over your head?

That's the point you just missed.

Oh, I got your point. That's why I was laughing at it.

 

[DominionSeraph]

I don't believe that any real physicist, nay scientist, can read that stuff without revulsion. I would almost make that revulsion a definition of the word scientist.

Thanks for highlighting this, because this is just wrong. You do NOT let your emotions run rampant while performing delicate analysis. Not only is there the near certainty that any initial reaction will completely color any subsequent conclusions, and the fact that an emotional reaction will interfere with any attempts to double-check your work as the emotion will be remembered and you'll work back from there, thus resulting in a "check" that starts with the assumption that your conclusion is true; there's the question of whether it's even a reaction to what's in front of you to begin with, for there's always the possibility that your brain skewed things from the start in order to line things up so as to fulfill a desire to have that emotion.

His behavior lends credence to the last. The depth of the theatrics is in line with the conclusion that he wanted something to be theatrical over, especially in light of the fact that the Climategate emails can and have been logically and properly explained. When you take away the deniers cherry-picking things that, out of context would likely lead to the misinterpretation of wrongdoing, and instead put everything in context, there's just nothing there to get upset over; yet he comes out with, "Everyone must act with revulsion"?
Does not compute.

No report found wrongdoing. No reputable news organization found any hint of anything except things being taken out of context.
There's nothing distasteful here except the deniers' dishonesty, but even that is just... mundane. YEC's lie about evolution. 9/11 truthers ignore physics. ID in its entirety is a lie constructed in an attempt to strip enough religious language out of creationism to slip creationism into the public classroom. Holocaust deniers ignore... everything. Pro-lifers are using misleading statistics and playing on fears of racism to make blacks think that they're being exterminated through abortion. Fox News could take the fact that pi is an irrational number and somehow make it sound like the Democrats are to blame.

I'm just really tired of this. I have to deal with a sister who's a psychopath -- I really don't need to be surrounded by more con artists and the legions of fools who've fallen for them.
Really, just a 10th grade education and a little effort should be enough to pierce right through these. Well, except for Fox News -- their system is very good at directly triggering emotion, and I really wouldn't expect many to have the experience required to fight that mental rape.