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An Audio question for you all

Anubis

No Lifer
my front speakers have 2 sets of input terminals on them and they can wither be "Bi-Wired" or "Bi-amping" it says this in the speaker book, but says nothing about how to do it and what the benefits are.

from the lil diagram "Bi-wiring" looks like running 2 wires out of the + and - terminals on the receiver and connecting them to the all the terminals on the speaker, 2 + and 2-, now what?s the point of doing this? Does it do something better then just running 1 set of wires?

"bi-amping" is shown as running a bass amp and a treble am to the speakers, on each set of terminals on the speaker, this makes sense seeing as if you use a separate amp for the signals you get a cleaner signal and better sound,

Someone want to confirm this for me and explain to me WTF the "bi-wiring: is all about
 
i dunno. almost seems as if they allow you to wire each speaker up to its own individual source, like the mid to a dedicated mid amp, and the tweeter to a dedicated tweeter amp. or just sorta parralleling them to get a lower ohm load, but that really doesnt make sense.

MIKE
 
Originally posted by: Anubis
my front speakers have 2 sets of input terminals on them and they can wither be "Bi-Wired" or "Bi-amping" it says this in the speaker book, but says nothing about how to do it and what the benefits are.

from the lil diagram "Bi-wiring" looks like running 2 wires out of the + and - terminals on the receiver and connecting them to the all the terminals on the speaker, 2 + and 2-, now what?s the point of doing this? Does it do something better then just running 1 set of wires?

"bi-amping" is shown as running a bass amp and a treble am to the speakers, on each set of terminals on the speaker, this makes sense seeing as if you use a separate amp for the signals you get a cleaner signal and better sound,

Someone want to confirm this for me and explain to me WTF the "bi-wiring: is all about

bi-wiring - you use one set of wires (that would be two wires) on the + and - of the "high" or "tweeter" terminals...that other end goes to an amp channel. Same with the "bass"...another set of wires. In extreme cases it can make a difference...but only in very exotic speakers (like martin logans and other electrostats)

passiv bi-amping - two amp channels are used for the speaker (generall different amps) on the tweeter and woofer. The affect is a little more power...generally doesn't do you much good as you money could be better spent on a better single amp.

active bi-amping same as passive bi-amping but with the addition of a crossover before the amplifiers...this is very similar to a lot of car audio setups that use and electronic crossover. This approach gives you incredible flexibility and power.

Hope that helps. And to your next question, no...you cannot use the A and B channels on your receiver in a "bi-amp" scenario because technically its the same amp/power supply and you could actully present a low load to the receiver.

passive bi-amping is also kinda a waste because the amps gain has to be perfectly matched between the two amps.

-edit- more info on bi-wiring. There are those that like it and others who scream bloody murder that it cannot have any affect on the sound. I always advise folks to try it out and see for yourself. Just use good 12 gauge wire for each termina.
 
And to your next question, no...you cannot use the A and B channels on your receiver in a "bi-amp" scenario because technically its the same amp/power supply and you could actully present a low load to the receiver.

i wasent gonna ask that im not that stupid

funny you say that Bi-wireing for use in electrostats because my dad has a pair and his only have 1 set of input terminals, they aer about 12 years old tho, prob closer to 15

bi-wiring - you use one set of wires (that would be two wires) on the + and - of the "high" or "tweeter" terminals...that other end goes to an amp channel. Same with the "bass"...another set of wires. In extreme cases it can make a difference...but only in very exotic speakers (like martin logans and other electrostats)

that cant be done with just a receiver can it? i ask because that is how it shows it in the booklet: it says trebble wireing and bass wireing but they are just comming out of the receiver terminals
 
Originally posted by: Anubis
And to your next question, no...you cannot use the A and B channels on your receiver in a "bi-amp" scenario because technically its the same amp/power supply and you could actully present a low load to the receiver.

i wasent gonna ask that im not that stupid

😉

you'd be surpised just how often it is asked.
 
Originally posted by: glen
It is a marketing ploy to get you to buy more wire.

not touching it with a ten foot pole until you can show the physics behind your statement on a speaker with a 1 ohm impedance.
 
Originally posted by: spidey07
Originally posted by: glen
It is a marketing ploy to get you to buy more wire.

not touching it with a ten foot pole until you can show the physics behind your statement on a speaker with a 1 ohm impedance.

1ohm is awsome, to bad i dont have the equip to pull that off, one of my professors runs 2 10in subs in his car at 1 ohm

his home thearter would rival Apex's
 
Originally posted by: Anubis
Originally posted by: spidey07
Originally posted by: glen
It is a marketing ploy to get you to buy more wire.

not touching it with a ten foot pole until you can show the physics behind your statement on a speaker with a 1 ohm impedance.

1ohm is awsome, to bad i dont have the equip to pull that off, one of my professors runs 2 10in subs in his car at 1 ohm

his home thearter would rival Apex's

the big thing is at that impedance the wire actually has an effect, especially with the capacitive nature of electrostats.

But seriously...try out bi-wiring and tell us what you think. If anything it does lower your effective gauge by 3.
 
Originally posted by: spidey07
Originally posted by: glen
It is a marketing ploy to get you to buy more wire.

not touching it with a ten foot pole until you can show the physics behind your statement on a speaker with a 1 ohm impedance.

yeah cause there's lots of 1 ohm HiFi speakers, so this would be totally relevant.

:roll:
 
Originally posted by: spidey07
Originally posted by: Anubis
Originally posted by: spidey07
Originally posted by: glen
It is a marketing ploy to get you to buy more wire.

not touching it with a ten foot pole until you can show the physics behind your statement on a speaker with a 1 ohm impedance.

1ohm is awsome, to bad i dont have the equip to pull that off, one of my professors runs 2 10in subs in his car at 1 ohm

his home thearter would rival Apex's

The big thing is at that impedance the wire actually has an effect, especially with the capacitive nature of electrostats.

But seriously...try out bi-wiring and tell us what you think. If anything it does lower your effective gauge by 3.
Sure, you can find a difference mathematically, but it is very small.
The question is, can anyone hear it?
Not, is it better or worse, but can any human, in a side by side listening test, where they are able to switch between different wires, even tell a difference?
No.
Never.
No human in any controlled experiment has ever been able to discern differences in wires by listening.

How is the experiment conducted?
ABX testing.

What is ABX testing?
With the basic unit, two pieces of equipment (for example, two different wires) are under comparison (A and B). They are fed from the same source. The subject hears first A and then B. Thereafter, the controller randomly selects either A or B as X. The subject can instantly change between A,B, and X as many times as they want until they think they know which one X is. Then they record their answer. This is repeated multiple time and statistical analysis is run on the results. Basically, if someone randomly guesses, they will be correct 50% of the time.

Cool, I think I understand the methodology, what are the results when this is done on wires?

http://web.archive.org/web/20020214075205/http://www.oakland.edu/~djcarlst/abx_wire.htm


Interconnects and Speaker Wires Result Correct p less than Listeners
$2.50 blister pack phono cable vs. PSACS Best 70 / 139 = 50% - 7 listeners
$418 Type "T1" Biwire vs. 16 Gauge Zip Cord 4 / 10 = 40% - 1 listener
Type "Z" Biwired Speaker Cable vs. 16 Gauge Zip Cord 70 / 139 = 50% - 7 listeners
$990 "T2" Speaker Cable vs. 16 Gauge Zip Cord 16 / 32 = 50% - 2 listeners


Wow, where can I read more about audio myths like "bi-wiring?"
http://2eyespy.tripod.com/myaudioandhometheaterhomepage/id3.html
 
John Dunlavy, of Dunlavy Audio Labs, comments, as a concerned engineer with credible credentials, on the claims asserted on several internet audio groups by audiophiles regarding audio interconnects and speaker wires.



Date: Tue, 5 Nov 1996 13:08:50 -0500
From: 102365.2026@compuserve.com (Dunlavy Audio Labs)
To: bass@mcfeeley.cc.utexas.edu (bass group)
Subject: Cable Nonsense (Long)
Having read some of the recent comments on several of the Internet audio groups, concerning audible differences between interconnect and loudspeaker cables, I could not resist adding some thoughts about the subject as a concerned engineer possessing credible credentials.

To begin, several companies design and manufacture loudspeaker and interconnect cables which they proudly claim possess optimized electrical properties for the audiophile applications intended. However, accurate measurements of several popularly selling cables reveal significant differences that call into question the technical goals of their designer. These differences also question the capability of the companies to perform accurate measurements of important cable performance properties. For example, any company not possessing a precision C-L-R bridge, a Vector Impedance Meter, a Network Analyzer, a precision waveform and impulse generator, wideband precision oscilloscopes, etc., probably needs to purchase them if they are truly serious about designing audio cables that provide premium performance.

The measurable properties of loudspeaker cables that are important to their performance include characteristic impedance (series inductance and parallel capacitance per unit length), loss resistance (including additional resistance due to skin-effect losses versus frequency), dielectric losses versus frequency (loss tangent, etc.), velocity-of-propagation factor, overall loss versus frequency into different impedance loads, etc.

Measurable properties of interconnect cables include all of the above, with the addition of those properties of the dielectric material that contribute to microphonic noise in the presence of ambient vibration, noise, etc. (in combination with a D.C. off-set created by a pre-amp output circuit, etc.).

While competent cable manufacturers should be aware of these measurements and the need to make them during the design of their cables, the raw truth is that most do not! Proof of this can be found in the absurd buzzard-salve, snake-oil and meaningless advertising claims found in almost all magazine ads and product literature for audiophile cables. Perhaps worse, very few of the expensive, high-tech appearing cables we have measured appear to have been designed in accordance with the well-known laws and principles taught by proper physics and engineering disciplines. (Where are the costly Government Consumer Protection people who are supposed to protect innocent members of the public by identifying and policing questionable performance claims, misleading specifications, etc.?) --- Caveat Emptor!

For example, claiming that copper wire is directional, that slow-moving electrons create distortion as they haphazardly carry the signal along a wire, that cables store and release energy as signals propagate along them, that a final energy component (improperly labeled as Joules) is the measure of the tonality of cables, ad nauseum, are but a few of the non-entities used in advertisements to describe cable performance.

Another pet peeve of mine is the concept of a special configuration included with a loudspeaker cable which is advertised as being able to terminate the cable in a matter intended to deliver more accurate tonality, better imaging, lower noise, etc. The real truth is that this special configuration contains nothing more than a simple, inexpensive network intended to prevent poorly-designed amplifiers, with a too-high slew-rate (obtained at the expense of instability caused by too much inverse-feedback) from oscillating when connected to a loudspeaker through a low-loss, low-impedance cable. When this box appears at the loudspeaker-end of a cable, it seldom contains nothing more than a Zobel network, which is usually a series resistor-capacitor network, connector in parallel with the wires of the cable. If it is at the amplifier-end of the cable, it is probably either a parallel resistor-inductor network, connected in series with the cable conductors (or a simple cylindrical ferrite sleeve covering both conductors). But the proper place for such a network, if it is needed to insure amplifier stability and prevent high-frequency oscillations, is within the amplifier - not along the loudspeaker cable. Hmmm!

Having said all this, are there really any significant audible differences between most cables that can be consistently identified by experienced listeners? The answer is simple: very seldom! Those who claim otherwise do not fully grasp the power of the old Placebo-Effect - which is very alive and well among even the most well-intentioned listeners. The placebo-effect renders audible signatures easy to detect and describe - if the listener knows which cable is being heard. But, take away this knowledge during blind or double-blind listening comparisons and the differences either disappear completely or hover close to the level of random guessing. Speaking as a competent professional engineer, designer and manufacturer, nothing would please me and my company's staff more than being able to design a cable which consistently yielded a positive score during blind listening comparisons against other cables. But it only rarely happens - if we wish to be honest!

Oh yes, we have heard of golden-eared audiophiles who claim to be able to consistently identify huge, audible differences between cables. But when these experts have visited our facility and were put to the test under carefully-controlled conditions, they invariably failed to yield a score any better than chance. For example, when led to believe that three popular cables were being compared, varying in size from a high-quality 12 AWG ZIP-CORD to a high-tech looking cable with a diameter exceeding an inch, the largest and sexiest looking cable always scored best - even though the CABLES WERE NEVER CHANGED and they listened to the ZIP Cord the entire time.

Sorry, but I do not buy the claims of those who say they can always audibly identify differences between cables, even when the comparisons are properly controlled to ensure that the identity of the cable being heard is not known by the listener. We have accomplished too many true blind comparisons with listeners possessing the right credentials, including impeccable hearing attributes, to know that real, audible differences seldom exist - if the comparisons are properly implemented to eliminate other causes such as system interactions with cables, etc.

Indeed, during these comparisons (without changing cables), some listeners were able to describe in great detail the big differences they thought they heard in bass, high-end detail, etc. (Of course, the participants were never told the NAUGHTY TRUTH, lest they become an enemy for life!)

So why does a reputable company like DAL engage in the design and manufacture of audiophile cables? The answer is simple: since significant measurable differences do exist and because well-known and understood transmission line theory defines optimum relationships between such parameters as cable impedance and the impedance of the load (loudspeaker), the capacitance of an interconnect and the input impedance of the following stage, why not design cables that at least satisfy what theory has to teach? And, since transmission line theory is universally applied, quite successfully, in the design of cables intended for TV, microwave, telephone, and other critical applications requiring peak performance, etc., why not use it in designing cables intended for critical audiophile applications? Hmmm! To say, as some do, that there are factors involved that competent engineers and scientists have yet to identify is utter nonsense and a cover-up for what should be called pure snake oil and buzzard salve - in short, pure fraud. If any cable manufacturer, writer, technician, etc. can identify such an audible design parameter that cannot be measured using available lab equipment or be described by known theory, I can guarantee a nomination for a Nobel Prize.

Anyway, I just had to share some of my favorite Hmmm's, regarding cable myths and seemingly fraudulent claims, with audiophiles on the net who may lack the technical expertise to separate fact from fiction with regard to cable performance. I also welcome comments from those who may have other opinions or who may know of something I might have missed or misunderstood regarding cable design, theory or secret criteria used by competitors to achieve performance that cannot be measured or identified by conventional means. Lets all try to get to the bottom of this mess by open, informed and objective inquiry.

I sincerely believe the time has come for concerned audiophiles, true engineers, competent physicists, academics, mag editors, etc. to take a firm stand regarding much of this disturbing new trend in the blatantly false claims frequently found in cable advertising. If we fail to do so, reputable designers, engineers, manufacturers, magazine editors and product reviewers may find their reputation tarnished beyond repair among those of the audiophile community we are supposed to serve.

Best regards,
John Dunlavy

For more articles posted by John, check out: Google Search group audio author dunlavy
 
Electrical Analysis of Biwiring

(Arny Krueger details both a simple, and a more complex analysis of biwiring, showing that it is electrically equivalent to single-wiring, and thus, "biwiring has no electrical effect if the speaker wire is properly designed for the speaker and the length of the wire, and the wire has lower series impedance than the source impedance of the power amp - both these conditions are commonly satisfied".)

http://www.pcavtech.com/techtalk/biwire/index.htm
 
Lies, Damn Lies, and Cables
Fun, Feathers, & Games in The High End

An Overdue Response, By Francis Vale
Tom Nousaine, a rigorous audiophile 'objectivist', gave a talk at a BAS/AES joint meeting in Boston, MA, in January 1995. Nousaine presented a paper that reported the experimental results of double blind tests with regards differences in audio cable sound. His paper essentially stated that all audio cables were sonically alike, and that not one of the experiment's participants could hear any differences when put in carefully controlled test settings. Furthermore, Nousaine went on to publicly state that all vendors'/dealers'/reviewers' claims of superior cable sound were bogus.

Now, as it so happened, the president of Transparent Audio, Jack Summer, was also in attendance. Summer was giving a talk immediately following Nousaine. Transparent is one of the better known audiophile cable makers. Summer was, not too surprisingly, miffed at Nousaine's contention that all cable makers' claims for audio performance are so much marketing nonsense.

In front of all present that night, including myself, Summer jumped up, and immediately challenged Nousaine to come to Chez Transparent in Hollis, Maine. Tom would then have an opportunity to do one of his cable comparison tests, using Transparent cables. Summer publicly stated that Nousaine would definitely hear a big difference in cable 'sound' . Nousaine grew testy, and rather red in the face, as he sparred back and forth with Summer. Things proceeded to get rather tense.

Like everyone else there that night, I watched all this with grim fascination. Quite frankly, given the players involved, it should not have been a totally unexpected development. Finally, everyone calmed down, and the evening's agenda proceeded.

Immediately following the meeting in Boston, Summer wrote the following letter to the Boston AES. Please note that Summer once again restates he is prepared to participate in a comparison test.

"To the Editor: January 18, 1995 Last night's Section meeting with Tom Nousaine was an interesting experience for me. I needed the experience to prepare for a talk that I am going to give to the New York AES section later this spring.

My undergraduate degree is in physics and my doctoral work was done in statistical analysis and research design. It is important to examine the validity of double blind testing at revealing subtle differences which audiophiles consider important. I intend to conduct an experiment in an area outside of audio to see what level of difference must exist for a double blind to statistically validate it. Perhaps someday I can share the results of this experiment with the Boston Section.

We invited Tom Nousaine to come to Maine to hear the difference in cables in our reference systems. I would like to extend the invitation to your membership, not for the purpose of comparing cables, although we would certainly do that if anyone wanted. The reason for anyone coming would be to hear a very good audiophile sound system in (a) very good room. The room was designed by Ed Bannon of TAJ Soundworks. It is about 29' x 19' with no parallel walls and solid construction. We have a variety of equipment to cover the upper range of audiophile tastes, and best of all, cable by Transparent.

Anyone can contact me at 207-929-4553 to set up a listening session. I look forward to attending more of your sessions this season and I intend to become a member.

Jack Summer
Transparent Audio
Hollis, Maine"


Fast forward several months, to the week of September 25, 1995. Tom Nousaine flies all the way from Chicago to Boston. His avowed mission: Take up Summer on his cable comparison offer. After all, President Summer had publicly made Tom a promise -- in writing no less. While in Boston, Nousaine also attended another Boston Audio Society meeting, on September 27th.

The day following the meeting, Nousaine, in the company of several other BAS members, including BAS founder Alvin Foster, drove all the way up to Maine, to Transparent Audio. Upon arrival at their destination, the President of Transparent said, quite incredibly, "What cable comparison? No way." Tom and Jack then got into another spirited discussion, which more or less followed along the puerile lines of "But you promised!" "Did Not!" Did Too!" Did Not." etc.

Nousaine and his BAS companions then said they were willing do a double blind; no one will know which cable is which. But the now Transparent Summer remained adamant in his position: No comparisons of any kind. No Pepsi cable taste test.

After more such highly transparent repartee, ruffled feathers were finally soothed all the way around. They all then sat down and listened to some nice Wilson X-1 music in Summer's very impressive home. Transparent cables were used throughout, of course. Tom, et al, finally drove back to Boston.

If I wasn't there in the BAS/AES audience back in January, 1995, I would have had difficulty in believing any of this wired-up fiasco. But I saw and heard Summer make his cable comparison offer to Nousaine at the January meeting. Summer even repeated his offer in writing.

The Inevitable Conclusion: The Transparent Audio President is the one who seems to be bogus in his proclaimed promises (but we still don't know about his cables).

And so it goes in the high end, in the never ending search for truth, beauty, good music, and profit


Copyright 1996, Francis Vale, All Rights Reserved











http://www.vxm.com/21R.64.html
 
Originally posted by: thomsbrain
Originally posted by: spidey07
Originally posted by: glen
It is a marketing ploy to get you to buy more wire.

not touching it with a ten foot pole until you can show the physics behind your statement on a speaker with a 1 ohm impedance.

yeah cause there's lots of 1 ohm HiFi speakers, so this would be totally relevant.

:roll:

ummm...actually most of the "nicer speakers" do go down to 1 ohm. Again Martin Logan's are case in point.
 
Glen,

yes, we can all grab stuff off the internet and take it as gosphel.

I prefer science and personal experience. Notice I said only in the most extreme cases could there be a change. Even then the calculations show only something like .80 db attentuation.

And yes, people can detect sub decibel changes.
 
Originally posted by: spidey07
Glen,

yes, we can all grab stuff off the internet and take it as gosphel.

I prefer science and personal experience. Notice I said only in the most extreme cases could there be a change. Even then the calculations show only something like .80 db attentuation.

And yes, people can detect sub decibel changes.

It is not gospel because it came from the internet,
It is gospel because it is a double blind experiment with multiple trials.
 
Originally posted by: glen
Originally posted by: spidey07
Glen,

yes, we can all grab stuff off the internet and take it as gosphel.

I prefer science and personal experience. Notice I said only in the most extreme cases could there be a change. Even then the calculations show only something like .80 db attentuation.

And yes, people can detect sub decibel changes.

It is not gospel because it came from the internet,
It is gospel because it is a double blind experiment with multiple trials.

Yes. Have you participated in such a trial or just read it?

I have done a 10/10 trial at home, double blind.

And I'm just saying in almost all cirumstances bi-wiring is usless. But not all.
 
Originally posted by: spidey07
Originally posted by: glen
Originally posted by: spidey07
Glen,

yes, we can all grab stuff off the internet and take it as gosphel.

I prefer science and personal experience. Notice I said only in the most extreme cases could there be a change. Even then the calculations show only something like .80 db attentuation.

And yes, people can detect sub decibel changes.

It is not gospel because it came from the internet,
It is gospel because it is a double blind experiment with multiple trials.

Yes. Have you participated in such a trial or just read it?

I have done a 10/10 trial at home, double blind.

And I'm just saying in almost all cirumstances bi-wiring is usless. But not all.


This test was done on numerous occasions by a Michigan audio club and I personally know 2 of the people involved. But, that is not how we "do" science. If we only believed things done by people we personally "knew" then science would be slowed to an almost complete halt, and who?s to say my personal interpretation of the results are any good anyway?
The reason to believe these results is because they have been extensively published in peer review articles, and presented at engineering conferences. This brings them under the scrutiny of the entire world of scientists. It presents the testing methodology; the results, the statistical analysis, and all the information so that other people can recreate the experiment and either confirm or deny the published results.
Tom Nousaine delivered a paper on it to the Audio Engineering Society in 1995.
It has been almost 10 years and no one has disputed the findings and presented even so much as a paper to refute the findings.
So, some marketing folks, salesmen, and some audiophiles swear there is a difference, and they have tried it double blind ect... but no one has demonstrated this.
What is telling is that wire manufacturers who have a lot to gain from proving this false have not once presented any evidence to counter these findings.
 
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