An Article By Noam Chomsky

imported_Tomato

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Sep 11, 2002
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An article by Noam Chomsky, Mar 20, 2003:

At this grim moment, we can do nothing to stop the ongoing invasion. But that does not mean that the task is over for people who have some concern for justice, freedom, and human rights. Far from it. The tasks will be more urgent than before, whatever the outcome of the attack. And about that, no one has any idea: not the Pentagon, the CIA, or anyone else. Possibilities range from the horrifying humanitarian catastrophes of which aid and relief agencies that work in Iraq have been warning, to relatively benign outcomes ? though even if not a hair is harmed on anyone?s head that will in no way mitigate the criminality of those willing to subject helpless people to such terrible risks, for their own shameful purposes.

As for the outcomes, it will be a long time before preliminary judgments can be made. One immediate task is to lend what weight we can to more benign outcomes. That means, primarily, caring for the needs of the victims, not just of this war but of Washington?s vicious and destructive sanctions regime of the past ten years, which has has devastated the civillian society, strengthened the ruling tyrant, and compelled the population to rely on him for survival. As has been pointed out for years, the sanctions therefore undermined the hope that Saddam Hussein would go the way of other murderous tyrants no less vicious than he. That includes a terrible rogues gallery of criminals who were also supported by those now at the helm in Washington, in many cases to the last days of their bloody rule: Ceausescu, to mention only one obvious and highly pertinent case.

Elementary decency would call for massive reparations from the US; lacking that, at least a flow of aid to Iraqis, so that they can rebuild what has been destroyed in their own way, not as dictated by people in Washington and Crawford whose higher faith is that power comes from the barrel of a gun.

But the issues are much more fundamental, and long range. Opposition to the invasion of Iraq has been entirely without historical precedent. That is why Bush had to meet his two cronies at a US military base on an island, where they would be safely removed from any mere people. The opposition may be focused on the invasion of Iraq, but its concerns go far beyond that. There is growing fear of US power, which is considered to be the greatest threat to peace in much of the world, probably by a large majority. And with the technology of destruction now at hand, rapidly becoming more lethal and ominous, threat to peace means threat to survival.

Fear of the US government is not based solely on this invasion, but on the background from which it arises: An openly-declared determination to rule the world by force, the one dimension in which US power is supreme, and to make sure that there will never be any challenge to that domination. Preventive wars are to be fought at will: Preventive, not Pre-emptive. Whatever the justifications for pre-emptive war might sometimes be, they do not hold for the very different category of preventive war: the use of military force to eliminate an imagined or invented threat. The openly-announced goal is to prevent any challenge to the ?power, position, and prestige of the United States.? Such challenge, now or in the future, and any sign that it may emerge, will be met with overwhelming force by the rulers of the country that now apparently outspends the rest of the world combined on means of violence, and is forging new and very dangerous paths over near-unanimous world opposition: development of lethal weaponry in space, for example.

It is worth bearing in mind that the words I quoted are not those of Dick Cheney or Donald Rumsfeld or other radical statist extremists now in charge. Rather, they are the words of the respected elder statesman Dean Acheson, 40 years ago, when he was a senior advisor to the Kennedy Administration. He was justifying US actions against Cuba ? knowing that the international terrorist campaign aimed at ?regime change? had just brought the world close to terminal nuclear war. Nevertheless, he instructed the American Society of International Law, no ?legal issue? arises in the case of a US response to a challenge to its ?power, position, and prestige,? specifically terrorist attacks and economic warfare against Cuba.

I bring this up as a reminder that the issues are deep-seated. The current administration is at the extremist end of the policy-planning spectrum, and its adventurism and penchant for violence are unusually dangerous. But the spectrum is not that broad, and unless these deeper issues are addressed, we can be confident that other ultrareactionary extremists will gain control of incredible means of devastation and repression.

The ?imperial ambition? of the current power holders, as it is frankly called, has aroused shudders throughout the world, including the mainstream of the establishment at home. Elsewhere, of course, the reactions are far more fearful, particularly among the traditional victims. They know too much history, the hard way, to be comforted by exalted rhetoric. They have heard enough of that over the centuries as they were being beaten by the club called ?civilization.? Just a few days ago, the head of the non-aligned movement, which includes the governments of most of the world?s population, described the Bush administration as more aggressive than Hitler. He happens to be very pro-American, and right in the middle of Washington?s international economic projects. And there is little doubt that he speaks for many of the traditional victims, and by now even for many of their traditional oppressors.

It is easy to go on, and important to think these matters through, with care and honesty.

Even before the Bush administration sharply escalated these fears in recent months, intelligence and international affairs specialists were informing anyone who wanted to listen that the policies Washington is pursuing are likely to lead to an increase in terror and proliferation of weapons of mass destruction, for revenge or simply deterrence. There are two ways for Washington to respond to the threats engendered by its actions and startling proclamations. One way is to try to alleviate the threats by paying some attention to legitimate grievances, and by agreeing to become a civilized member of a world community, with some respect for world order and its institutions. The other way is to construct even more awesome engines of destruction and domination, so that any perceived challenge, however remote, can be crushed ? provoking new and greater challenges. That way poses serious dangers to the people of the US and the world, and may, very possibly, lead to extinction of the species ? not an idle speculation.

Terminal nuclear war has been avoided by near miracle in the past; a few months before Acheson?s speech, to mention one case that should be fresh in our minds today. Threats are severe and mounting. The world has good reason to watch what is happening in Washington with fear and trepidation. The people who are best placed to relieve those fears, and to lead the way to a more hopeful and constructive future, are the citizens of the United States, who can shape the future.

Those are among the deep concerns that must, I think, be kept clearly in mind while watching events unfold in their unpredictable way as the most awesome military force in human history is unleashed against a defenseless enemy by a political leadership that has compiled a frightening record of destruction and barbarism since it took the reins of power over 20 years ago.
 

Corn

Diamond Member
Nov 12, 1999
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Opposition to the invasion of Iraq has been entirely without historical precedent.

I quit reading that trash following that wholly ignorant and blatantly dishonest comment. Chumpski can eat it.
 

Zebo

Elite Member
Jul 29, 2001
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Originally posted by: Corn
Opposition to the invasion of Iraq has been entirely without historical precedent.

I quit reading that trash following that wholly ignorant and blatantly dishonest comment. Chumpski can eat it.

Besides the United states popluation, the rest of the world (even "coalition" members spain and England) are very much against this war. I'd say he was very accurate.

 

Corn

Diamond Member
Nov 12, 1999
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Besides the United states popluation, the rest of the world (even "coalition" members spain and England) are very much against this war. I'd say he was very accurate.

Yes, yes, and of course the rest of the world embraced Germany and Japan's invasions.......
rolleye.gif


I'd say he is a tool.

 

naddicott

Senior member
Jul 3, 2002
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Thanks for posting that, Chomsky raises many of the issues I'm concerned with.

I agree that operation 'Iraqi Freedom' cannot be stopped at this point, and I feel that trying to stop the operation prematurely wouldn't benefit any US interests. The world wouldn't suddenly forgive us for our preventive action and welcome us with open arms back into a functioning world community - rather they would assume we're still capable of such attacks but also disrespect our capacity to finish what we start. The opressed Iraqis who have conveniently become the focus of this effort will have even more reasons to feel betrayed (and the few who have openly rebelled will of course be doomed).

The fact that pro-American heads of government are calling Bush "more agressive than Hitler" shows that we're seriously losing the war of international opinion, which supposedly is a key battle to the long term reduction of terrorism threats. Any political candidate who proposes a US policy that would bring us fully into the world community, address legitimate grievances, and reduce our hypocritical double standards will get my vote and support. Until then, I'll just continue to vote for the lesser of two evils.

The war itself is irrelevant in the long run compared to what effects our policies will have on international hearts and minds. The call to action Chomsky makes in that article recognises that.
Even before the Bush administration sharply escalated these fears in recent months, intelligence and international affairs specialists were informing anyone who wanted to listen that the policies Washington is pursuing are likely to lead to an increase in terror and proliferation of weapons of mass destruction, for revenge or simply deterrence.
I hope those specialists are wrong, but my gut sense is that they are simply stating common sense realities.

I won't even bother defending Chomsky against personal attacks from AT posters who probably won't even read the whole article. Chomsky calls them as he sees them, and he is an equal opportunity thorn in the side.

[edit - fixed double negative]
 

Corn

Diamond Member
Nov 12, 1999
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Does the rest of the "world" care about Iraq?

One must look at the motivations behind the anti-US sentiment. Prior to Bush building up forces to liberate Iraq it appears the world had little care for the average Iraqi citizen. The world was content to allow Saddam's brutal rule. The world was also content to allow the continual starvation of the Iraqi civilians because of sanctions approved of by the "world".

The "world" cares not for the Iraqi people, their past actions document that fully.

World opinion has nothing to do with their supposed sympathy for the Iraqi people, it centers solely around the opportunity to take a few potshots at the USA.

If the world is wrong, why the fsck should I care what they think? The world would rather Saddam's subjects starve than have to endure the horror of another western democracy and potential American ally.
 

Corn

Diamond Member
Nov 12, 1999
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The fact that pro-American heads of government are calling Bush "more agressive than Hitler" shows that we're seriously losing the war of international opinion, which supposedly is a key battle to the long term reduction of terrorism threats.

Any head of a so-called "pro-American" government that would claim Bush to be "more agressive than Hitler" has a distorted grasp of reality, and their opinion, while "international" is rightly dismissed as nothing more than the mutterings of an imbecile.
 

Morph

Banned
Oct 14, 1999
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Very well-written argument against this war and against the war-mongering ways of our current administration. I'd love for George W Bush to read this article but I doubt he will. I have a feeling he doesn't do much reading, and even if he did read it I doubt he'd be able to understand much of it.
 

Morph

Banned
Oct 14, 1999
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Originally posted by: Corn
Opposition to the invasion of Iraq has been entirely without historical precedent.

I quit reading that trash following that wholly ignorant and blatantly dishonest comment. Chumpski can eat it.

And that is exactly why YOU, my friend, will remain ignorant.
 

Corn

Diamond Member
Nov 12, 1999
6,390
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And that is exactly why YOU, my friend, will remain ignorant.

Ignorant of what? An ignorant fools opinion? BF'nD
rolleye.gif


BTW, I choose my friends wisely and you aren't one of 'em.
 

naddicott

Senior member
Jul 3, 2002
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Originally posted by: Corn
Does the rest of the "world" care about Iraq?

One must look at the motivations behind the anti-US sentiment. Prior to Bush building up forces to liberate Iraq it appears the world had little care for the average Iraqi citizen. The world was content to allow Saddam's brutal rule. The world was also content to allow the continual starvation of the Iraqi civilians because of sanctions approved of by the "world".

The "world" cares not for the Iraqi people, their past actions document that fully.

World opinion has nothing to do with their supposed sympathy for the Iraqi people, it centers solely around the opportunity to take a few potshots at the USA.

If the world is wrong, why the fsck should I care what they think? The world would rather Saddam's subjects starve than have to endure the horror of another western democracy and potential American ally.

Nice to lump millions of people's thoughts into such a simplistic position isn't it? If you want to become less ignorant about the anti-US basis of some "world" opinion (why quotes around "world"? does the rest of the world not exist to you, so it is just a fictional concept?), you could start with the following link:
Victims of United States invasions since the end of world war II

That summary plus the 90+ references are enough material for a few AT threads. If you want to read those and come back and say "the world is wrong, why the fsck should I care what they think", with some specifics about how all those US actions were entirely moral and justified, then I'll be happy to discuss the topic. Otherwise, feel free to call Chomsky and those who read arguments in full before debating them whatever names you like - I'll pass on that type of debate.
 

GagHalfrunt

Lifer
Apr 19, 2001
25,284
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Chomsky loses it in the 3rd sentence of that tripe. Anyone that supports the Iraqi regime and also claims to support "justice, freedom and human rights" loses all credibility and anything futher uttered by a person so hopelessly confused is meaningless. Anyone who views Saddam and Iraq as the misunderstood good guys in all this has their head so far up their posterior that they can no doubt identify every colon polop by name.

That's where every single anti-war drivelist falls apart. You cannot support both human rights and the mass-murdering thugs that are running Iraq. If you're anti-war in EVERY circumstance, fine. If you're a complete pacifist who believes agression should be met with absolutely no resistence, okay. If you're a French coward, that's your problem. But if you support keeping the Iraqi regime in power on the basis of "justice, freedom and human rights" then you're just monumentally stupid.
 

Corn

Diamond Member
Nov 12, 1999
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Nice to lump millions of people's thoughts into such a simplistic position isn't it?

Nice? Yes it is. Accurate? Most likely.

The "world" is as ignorant of the basis for their anti-American sentiment as your average US publically educated student that can't even find S. Dakota on a map.

As far as your link is concerned.....

Kosovo 1998-1999

One of the indirect disasters of the attack on Yugoslavia was the subversion of international law. Prof. Mandel and other lawyers filed a complaint in 1999 to the International Criminal Tribunal arguing that NATO had no legal right to bomb Yugoslavia and its province Kosovo. In many other ways too NATO violated international laws. It bombed targets that were off limits; it used banned weapons; it destroyed public services--electric power system, drinking water supply, food supply, transportation facilities, living quarters, hospitals, schools, monasteries, museums--; by bombing chemical factories and tanks it poisoned the Danube River and other drinking water sources; in countless ways it damaged the environment; it killed several thousand civilians and wounded some 6000 more.
Noam Chomsky, The New Militlary Humanism: Lessons from Kosovo. Common Courage, 1999. The new military "humanitarianism" is founded upon a policy in which victims of human rights violations are either "worthy" or "unworthy."

....it is of similar nonsense as is the topic of this discussion.

I'm not going to argue that we have been morally justified in each action that we've taken in enforcing our foreign policy because that argument posed by you is a fallacy simply for the fact that the "world" has also unclean hands from deeds committed in their past.

Weak.

 

foofoo

Golden Member
Mar 5, 2001
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Does the rest of the "world" care about Iraq?

here's an interesting piece by thomas friedman on that. his take on politically correct anti semitism on the part of france, germany, etc. is one that i agree with but hadne seen in print anywhere before. it was put out before the war began...


The Gridlock Gang

February 26, 2003
By THOMAS L. FRIEDMAN






William Rees-Mogg, the former editor of The Times of
London, raised a very important question in an essay he
wrote after watching the recent, massive antiwar
demonstrations in Europe. Referring to the various banners
carried by protesters, he noted: "There was, I thought, one
slogan which was missing. There were quite a number which
called for `Freedom for Palestine' [but] I looked in vain
for one which called for `Freedom for Iraq.' . . . None of
the speakers expressed any wish to free Iraq. . . ."

Mr. Rees-Mogg is quite right. When it comes to the Middle
East, the whole issue of democratization and better
governance simply is not part of the debate over the
future. To the extent that it is, it is used as a tool to
beat up on enemies, not a supreme value to be promoted for
everyone.

Let's start with the Europeans. There is only one group of
Arabs for whom Europeans have consistently spoken out in
favor of their liberation - and that is those Arabs living
under Israeli occupation, the Palestinians. Those Arabs who
have been living under the tyranny of Saddam Hussein or
other Arab dictators are of no concern to President Jacques
Chirac of France and his fellow travelers.

We all know what this is about: the Jewish question. "For
too many Europeans, Arabs are of no moral interest in and
of themselves," observes the Middle East analyst Stephen P.
Cohen. "They only become of interest if they are fighting
Jews or being manhandled by Jews. Then their liberation
becomes paramount, because calling for it is a way to stick
it to the Jews. Europeans' demonstrations for a free
Palestine - and not for a free Iraq or any other Arab
country - smell too much like a politically correct form of
anti-Semitism, part of a very old story."

The truth is, France is not interested in promoting
égalité, fraternité and liberté in the Middle East. It is
primarily interested today in managing American power. It
is primarily interested in positioning France to become the
world's next great "Uncola," the leader of the alternative
coalition to American power.

In fairness, though, before now the U.S. has never shown
much interest in Arab democracy either. It treated the Arab
states like big, dumb gas stations, and all the U.S. cared
about was that they kept their pumps open and their prices
low. Otherwise they could do whatever they wanted to their
own people at home or out back.

Only after 9/11, as we realized that what was going on out
back in these countries threatened us, did the U.S. begin
to call for democracy in the Arab world - but only to get
rid of Yasir Arafat and to punish those Arab regimes it did
not like, namely Saddam Hussein's. You still have not seen
any serious democratization effort being directed at Saudi
Arabia or Egypt or Kuwait. For America, government of the
people, by the people and for the people is only for our
enemies, not our friends.

But then, other than a few courageous Arab liberals, Arab
intellectuals have not made democracy promotion a supreme
value either. In part it's because liberating Palestine has
always been treated by them as a more important political
value. And in part it's because many Arab societies are
still so tribalized, and have such a weak sense of
citizenship, they fear that democracy could bring forth
fundamentalists, a rival tribe or anarchy. Hence the Arab
saying: "Better a hundred years of tyranny than one day of
anarchy."

Ironically, 9/11 began to change this view. You can see it
in the lack of Arab support for Saddam. There is a much
deeper awareness that leaders like Saddam are what have
retarded Arab development. "But because Arab peoples and
systems have never developed their own way of getting rid
of bad leaders, they can only look to outsiders to do it -
and that evokes the worst memories of imperialism and
colonialism," notes Mr. Cohen. "They don't want to get rid
of Saddam at the cost of being controlled by Americans." So
they are paralyzed - wanting their Saddams removed, but
deeply afraid of who will do it and what will come next.

What all this means is that when it comes to building
democracy in Iraq, the Europeans are uninterested, the
Americans are hypocritical and the Arabs are ambivalent.
Therefore, undertaking a successful democratization project
there, in a way that will stimulate positive reform
throughout the region, will require a real revolution in
thinking all around - among Americans, Arabs and Europeans.
If done right, the Middle East will never be the same. If
done wrong, the world will never be the same.

http://www.nytimes.com/2003/02/26/opinion/26FRIE.html?ex=1047305298&ei=1&en=be975f4fe8827dca

 

Tom

Lifer
Oct 9, 1999
13,293
1
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Ok, I read the whole article. Is there something in there about why anyone should oppose the current war in Iraq ?

I didn't find it.

edit- I'm referring to the original article at the top of the thread.

 

CADsortaGUY

Lifer
Oct 19, 2001
25,162
1
76
www.ShawCAD.com
Originally posted by: Morph
Originally posted by: Corn
Opposition to the invasion of Iraq has been entirely without historical precedent.

I quit reading that trash following that wholly ignorant and blatantly dishonest comment. Chumpski can eat it.

And that is exactly why YOU, my friend, will remain ignorant.

:p ignorant....Hmmmm....

Seeing as your sig is:
"2000 Presidential Election Results

Gore: 50,999,897 votes
Bush: 50,456,002 votes "
rolleye.gif


Here is the real result of the election ;)

2000 Election Electoral Results
Gore's Total: 266
Bush's Total: 271

Hmmmm....

Oh and the article...
Well GagHalfrunt's rather blunt words will be dittoed by me :D

CkG

 

Morph

Banned
Oct 14, 1999
747
0
0
Originally posted by: Dead Parrot Sketch
Ok, I read the whole article. Is there something in there about why anyone should oppose the current war in Iraq ?

I didn't find it.

edit- I'm referring to the original article at the top of the thread.

If you didn't get it then you're probably never going to. No use trying to explain it to you.
 

Corn

Diamond Member
Nov 12, 1999
6,390
29
91
ignorant....Hmmmm....

Seeing as your sig is:
"2000 Presidential Election Results

Gore: 50,999,897 votes
Bush: 50,456,002 votes "

Here is the real result of the election

2000 Election Electoral Results
Gore's Total: 266
Bush's Total: 271

Hmmmm....

Oh and the article...
Well GagHalfrunt's rather blunt words will be dittoed by me

CkG

As you can see, it still comes down to simple partisanship. Where was the voice of Morph or nadicott during our "illegal" bombing of Serbia? Where was the outcry from Europe?

Well, when the nastiness is in their back yard, they want us to clean it up. But if darkie in the middle east needs liberating, well they would just as well see them suffer and die than to allow us to act in our interests.
 

Morph

Banned
Oct 14, 1999
747
0
0
Originally posted by: CADkindaGUY


:p ignorant....Hmmmm....

Seeing as your sig is:
"2000 Presidential Election Results

Gore: 50,999,897 votes
Bush: 50,456,002 votes "
rolleye.gif


Here is the real result of the election ;)

2000 Election Electoral Results
Gore's Total: 266
Bush's Total: 271

Hmmmm....

Oh and the article...
Well GagHalfrunt's rather blunt words will be dittoed by me :D

CkG

Call me wacky but I believe strongly that, in a democracy, every citizen's vote should count, and count equally. Unfortunately we have this idiotic convention known as the Electoral College which servers to subvert the democratic will of the people. One day this will be changed. I just want to make sure everyone knows what the REAL vote tally was in 2000. Funny how defensive Bush-supporters get about my sig. ;)

 

naddicott

Senior member
Jul 3, 2002
793
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76
Originally posted by: Dead Parrot Sketch
Ok, I read the whole article. Is there something in there about why anyone should oppose the current war in Iraq ?

I didn't find it.

edit- I'm referring to the original article at the top of the thread.

I don't think there is anything in that Chomsky article about accomplishing anything by opposing the war now that it is a done deal, although he certainly doesn't sound pleased that it started in the first place. His opinions tend to be a bit more complicated than "war bad, hippy lovefests good".

As for GagHalfrunt's dismissal. Stop thinking in such polarized terms. Anti Bush != Pro Saddam.

That means, primarily, caring for the needs of the victims, not just of this war but of Washington?s vicious and destructive sanctions regime of the past ten years, which has has devastated the civillian society, strengthened the ruling tyrant, and compelled the population to rely on him for survival. As has been pointed out for years, the sanctions therefore undermined the hope that Saddam Hussein would go the way of other murderous tyrants no less vicious than he. That includes a terrible rogues gallery of criminals who were also supported by those now at the helm in Washington, in many cases to the last days of their bloody rule: Ceausescu, to mention only one obvious and highly pertinent case.

That doesn't sound like a sanctioning of Hussein or his actions ('murderous tyrant' is not the words an apologist would use), but rather a condemnation of the utterly useless sanctions. Chomsky is Anti Bush, Anti Saddam, and Anti Sanctions (the real trick is finding anything Chomsky is "Pro" about).

The illogical leap that any disagreement with Bush's foreign policy decisions equates to "supports the Iraqi regime" is equivalent to saying: "there's only one way to do things, my (Bush's) way!" It does however, allow you to dismiss pretty much any ideas you don't want to actually debate the merits of, since suddenly they become ideas of someone who loves murder, rape, and chemical warfare against innocent civilians.

To those who think that the administration owns the moral high ground, especially in regards to Hussein's use of WMD against the Kurds, if that is sufficient reason to march into Iraq and manually depose Hussein, then why didn't Bush Sr. do exactly that instead of prematurely ending Gulf War I? The US only worries about the crimes of genocidal maniacs when punishing those crimes coincides with accomplishing other national objectives. Our total lack of concern about the genocide in Rwanda proves that.
 

GagHalfrunt

Lifer
Apr 19, 2001
25,284
1,998
126
Originally posted by: naddicott
Originally posted by: Dead Parrot Sketch
Ok, I read the whole article. Is there something in there about why anyone should oppose the current war in Iraq ?

I didn't find it.

edit- I'm referring to the original article at the top of the thread.

I don't think there is anything in that Chomsky article about accomplishing anything by opposing the war now that it is a done deal, although he certainly doesn't sound pleased that it started in the first place. His opinions tend to be a bit more complicated than "war bad, hippy lovefests good".

As for GagHalfrunt's dismissal. Stop thinking in such polarized terms. Anti Bush != Pro Saddam.

That means, primarily, caring for the needs of the victims, not just of this war but of Washington?s vicious and destructive sanctions regime of the past ten years, which has has devastated the civillian society, strengthened the ruling tyrant, and compelled the population to rely on him for survival. As has been pointed out for years, the sanctions therefore undermined the hope that Saddam Hussein would go the way of other murderous tyrants no less vicious than he. That includes a terrible rogues gallery of criminals who were also supported by those now at the helm in Washington, in many cases to the last days of their bloody rule: Ceausescu, to mention only one obvious and highly pertinent case.

That doesn't sound like a sanctioning of Hussein or his actions ('murderous tyrant' is not the words an apologist would use), but rather a condemnation of the utterly useless sanctions. Chomsky is Anti Bush, Anti Saddam, and Anti Sanctions (the real trick is finding anything Chomsky is "Pro" about).

The illogical leap that any disagreement with Bush's foreign policy decisions equates to "supports the Iraqi regime" is equivalent to saying: "there's only one way to do things, my (Bush's) way!" It does however, allow you to dismiss pretty much any ideas you don't want to actually debate the merits of, since suddenly they become ideas of someone who loves murder, rape, and chemical warfare against innocent civilians.

To those who think that the administration owns the moral high ground, especially in regards to Hussein's use of WMD against the Kurds, if that is sufficient reason to march into Iraq and manually depose Hussein, then why didn't Bush Sr. do exactly that instead of prematurely ending Gulf War I? The US only worries about the crimes of genocidal maniacs when punishing those crimes coincides with accomplishing other national objectives. Our total lack of concern about the genocide in Rwanda proves that.

Okay, since you seem to think you understand the situation, please explain to us people that think only in polarized terms like right/wrong and good/evil: How does leaving Saddam in power benefit anyone except Saddam? Please discuss the ramifications for the Kurds slaughtered by WMDs, the Iraqi neighbors who have been invaded, the starving Iraq populace who dies so that Saddam can build up the war machine and the hundreds of thousands of lives shattered by the systemic Iraqi sponsorship of worldwide terrorism. Go ahead, this is a test and you have unlimited time for your answer. Feel free to ask for additional blue books if necessary.

As for Bush the first ending the first Gulf War, that was bowing to world pressure so that diplomacy could be engaged. That's what the anti-war bleeding hearts are all about, isn't it? Let's use diplomacy. Let's use sanctions. Let's do it the peaceful way. Now it's 12 years later and diplomacy failed. The doves had their chance. Sanctions were ignored. Disarmament was refused. The U.N. caved and would not support it's own resolutions. Iraqi-sponsored terrorism went onward. The Iraqi people died. Are you still under the impression that any sort of diplomacy is going to work in this situation? Have the failures of 12 years worth of peaceful attempts taught you nothing?

You're left with some simple question:
1) If the world a better place with a mass-murderer like Saddam running Iraq or would the world in general and Iraq in particular be better off if he was overthrown?
2) Is America safe if he's allowed to stay in power and develop WMDs in violation of all peaceful U.N. resolutions?
3) If sanctions don't work, how do you propose we remove him if not with force.

Once again, this is a test, so support your position.
 

Tom

Lifer
Oct 9, 1999
13,293
1
76
"If you didn't get it then you're probably never going to. No use trying to explain it to you. "

I guess you didn't get my point. This article by itself is a collection of meaningless histrionics. The only message I get from it is he doesn't like George W Bush.

I don't particularly either, but I'm sure there are more cohesive statements about the reasons for opposing the current war. I'm personally not opposed to the war, but I know there are valid reasons for doing so. This kind of article may be useful for steeling the resolve of the converted, but it is sorely lacking in substance for anyone actually looking for information.

On top of that, stylistically, it sucks.
;)
 

CADsortaGUY

Lifer
Oct 19, 2001
25,162
1
76
www.ShawCAD.com
Originally posted by: Morph
Call me wacky but I believe strongly that, in a democracy, every citizen's vote should count, and count equally. Unfortunately we have this idiotic convention known as the Electoral College which servers to subvert the democratic will of the people. One day this will be changed. I just want to make sure everyone knows what the REAL vote tally was in 2000. Funny how defensive Bush-supporters get about my sig. ;)

No I was just pointing out that the "results" of the election was in Bush's favor. I agree however that we need to change our voting structure so that 1 vote equals 1 vote;) But posting numbers as you have intending on implying that they are THE results of the election is ignorant which I was pointing out. Sure you *may* be correct with the popular vote numbers but painting them as the "2000 election results" is just wrong.

If you want help changing the system - you have my backing;)
 

naddicott

Senior member
Jul 3, 2002
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Originally posted by: Corn
As you can see, it still comes down to simple partisanship. Where was the voice of Morph or nadicott during our "illegal" bombing of Serbia? Where was the outcry from Europe?

Well, when the nastiness is in their back yard, they want us to clean it up. But if darkie in the middle east needs liberating, well they would just as well see them suffer and die than to allow us to act in our interests.

Trent Lott took care of opposing the bombing of Serbia just fine. Link. :p As for Chomsky, the fact that he quotes a member of the Kennedy administration in bringing up the dangers of taking all necessary means to defeat challenges to our "power, position, and prestige" is his way of implying he thinks both parties are guilty of taking US policy down a dangerous diplomatic road.

I'm in favor of finishing this war now that it has started. We are doing the right thing for the wrong reasons. I in no way buy the assertion that Bush instigated this war primarily to liberate "darkie in the middle east", and I won't be surprised if 50 years from now the historians conclude that this action led to increased level of terrorism and violence against the US. At this point, international outcry a forgone conclusion, so we might as well take our "international unpopularity" lumps, get rid of Saddam, and increase the chance of the Iraqi civilans (those who survive) living happier lives 50 years from now. I don't expect the followers of Sayyid Qutb (the arab Karl Marx - idealogical basis of Al-Qaeda) to stop hating and attacking the US even if we do help Iraqis choose a good humane government.