I've tried to steer clear of alot of the war talk here, but Kuwait got my panties in a bunch yetserday. They are going to stop production in their northern fields in case of an Iraqi "counterstrike". Apparently 250,000 American troops is not enough to make them feel safe. I don't know about you, but I have had it with the whole scene over there. We do not NEED their oil, even if we did it would still be available in the open market. History carries the examples of how embrargos fail, espeically with a global product like oil. We need to start developing alternative fuel resources for ourselves, to become self-sufficent. I say we cut off ALL aid to Israel, one of the wealthiest nations in the world, and pull ALL of our troops out of the region, Kuwait, Israel, Saudi, etc. By cutting off our aid and association to Israel we will alleviate much of the hatred and bias against the US in the middle east, removing our soldiers from their "holy" lands should leave little for them to declare "war on the infidels". As long as our nation is not attacked directly or indirectly I would not interfere. Should Iraq or any other middle eastern nation attack another country we will tell them to request aid from the French and Russians. The message here is this, you don't want us to take care of the problem, fine, just don't expect our help when it's your a*s on the line. We will not ask for nor NEED your help should we be attacked, and may God have mercy on the souls of those that foolishly belive this great country will ever fall and take action against us.......
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An alternative middle east policy for America....
- Thread starter Alistar7
- Start date
This is probably why they are going to stop production in their northern fields
http://www.guardian.co.uk/Iraq/Story/0,2763,907787,00.html
http://www.guardian.co.uk/Iraq/Story/0,2763,907787,00.html
alexruiz
Platinum Member
You have very good points here, and it all revolves on a concept called RESPECT. I don't think however, that your goverment is going to even think about it. Power and money corrupt, no matter what kind of goverment a country has. Power and money generate ambition. When that ambition is too strong, it blinds the persons. That is a truth applied to anyone.
Please notice that I haven't said directly "your country goverment, or my country goverment, or anyone goverment"..... There are a lot of interests, and the money that it can reap to a privileged minority can steer thing in a different way of what the people would like (because, unfortunately, you or the average person in the USA are not going to see those "benefits", but you can for sure feel the hatred and the terrorist threats). Money talks, but even before money, the main function of a goverment is to SERVE its people, and by serving I mean giving satisfactors, land, safety, education. A goverment should also capture the feelings of the people it is supposed to serve, and make sure that INTERESTS of a minority are not more important than the fellings or VALUES preached by the majority.
As you mentioned, you don't need the oil, and I am sure you are talking about the MAJORITY..... but for a minority, that OIL means tons and tons of money. What people have to push is making the goverment DO what the majority of the people want (that is afer all, the function of a goverment)
The USA is a unique position of leadership in the world, but to exhibit that leadership you NEED to CONVINCE using the REASON. If Iraq is really a menace, the person who says has the "evidence" needs to show that evidence to the rest. Such evidence has to be CONTUNDENT in order to CONVINCE. If the evidence is weak, or if we need to believe blindly, we are getting closer to the mid 30's, because only Hitler had the "evidence" that the Jewish were a threat to Germany...... ypou know the rest. When the man is charge lacks even the most basic negotiating skills, you are not going to get anywhere. Make that retarded learn some negotiation techniques. Remember, the pen is mightier than the sword, and the words spoken in the proper way are like word spoken twice.
I know the values preached and feeled by the people in your country, and I know that you are authentic and legitimate on those feelings. Don't let an ambitious retarded helped by the mass media go against the values that forged your country.
Alex
Just going off news reports that claimed the shutdown of OIL production was due to fear of a counterstrike, which is preposterous. My plan would eliminate this division of Kuwait, they can kee it all to themsleves, at least for a week, which is about how long it would take Saddam to recapture them again. That would be their problem, I'm sure the French and Russians can help them deal with that situation though....
WHY are we the Great Satan? Because we aid Israel financially, militarily, and politically, we occupy land holy to them, we import our culture and products, etc... end all of that.
We are the common enemy for the leaders to hold before their people and proclaim as the reason for all of the struggle and despair in their life. I forgot nothing, if they want to ACT on their beliefs we are not going anywhere, just pick up a globe and come and get some. You will find they are mostly TALK. Afghanistan got off LIGHT, they are lucky I was not behind the trigger.....
Once we capture Bin Looney we should put him in an exhibit at the zoo with the rest of the animals where he belongs...
We are in the unique position of NOT HAVING to convince anyone, we have the military might to do as we please without fear of reprecussion and we will always retain that right. Once we do actually start our attack on Iraq I hope we take a few shots at Saudi as well, back in 1996 when Bin Looney was in the Sudan the Saudi's wouldn't even agree to allow him to be deported for trial. You need EVIDENCE that Saddam is a menace, ask the Kurds. Besides we know both Saudi and Iraq have harbored and funded terrorists for DECADES. Since we will do as we please over there anyway we might as well take care of everything at once.
Well, you have the military might to do what you want, yes, but that is not a right and you cannot do anything without fear of repercussion; According to Bin Laden, September the 11th was a repercussion. The USS Cole was a repercussion. Those embassy and barracks bombings were a repercussion (although god alone knows what the anthrax thing was about.) Welcome to a world of asymetrical warfare.
Some good posts here.
Xirtam, people didn't just randomly pull the U.S.A's name out of a hat and decide to call us the "Great Satan" because they were having a slow day at the office. There are logical reasons for most things that happen in the world.
We certainly do not need to convert to Islam or invade Israel to gain a small amount of respect from Islamic countries. That's absurd. What you're saying is: "There's really nothing that we can do differently, THEY are just all crazy arabs who are going to hate us no matter what." It's attitudes like that that get us into so much trouble in the first place....
Xirtam, people didn't just randomly pull the U.S.A's name out of a hat and decide to call us the "Great Satan" because they were having a slow day at the office. There are logical reasons for most things that happen in the world.
We certainly do not need to convert to Islam or invade Israel to gain a small amount of respect from Islamic countries. That's absurd. What you're saying is: "There's really nothing that we can do differently, THEY are just all crazy arabs who are going to hate us no matter what." It's attitudes like that that get us into so much trouble in the first place....
The Israel-Palestine situation certainly needs to be resolved, but simply cutting Israel off will not help curry favor with the arabs. They will simply switch their emphasis from complaining about America supporting Israel to complaining about America ignoring Palestine. Nothing new, really.
I'm not saying we should be isolationist at all, we couldnt survive economically without exporting our goods. I listed more than the Israel reason for the hatred bestowed upon us, all of which can be eliminated by our own doing. Yes the siuation over there would continue to crumble until fighting broke out again, probably on many fronts. At that point when the rest of the world got on their knees and BEGGED us to help it would give me nothing but great pleasure to tell them to stuff it, you complained when we ready to get it done, now it's YOUR PROBLEM, please forward all requests for assistance to the French, German, Russian, and Pakistani people.
BeauJangles
Lifer
I only partly agree with you. By removing our forces from the Middle East and giving the region more independence, we would become less 'evil'. However, I think the way to really turn the world around (and US policy) is to actually help these people. Send in the Red Cross and our other charity organizations and show Muslims, Christians, and Jews that we don't hate any of them. If we were to help these people out, by providing housing, food, clothing, etc it would really turn this world around.
It's a better defense against terrorism than we have now. Men like Osama Bin Laden will always hate the US, but there are many who, if we actually treated them like human beings and gave them a bit of respect, would not hate us. Less radical flag-burning people means less of a terrorist threat. We can't police the world, but we can sure as hell help.
It's a better defense against terrorism than we have now. Men like Osama Bin Laden will always hate the US, but there are many who, if we actually treated them like human beings and gave them a bit of respect, would not hate us. Less radical flag-burning people means less of a terrorist threat. We can't police the world, but we can sure as hell help.
Cutting of all aid to Israel would help curry much favor with the Arab world, our PUBLIC recognition that the Palestinean people should have a homeland was well recieved even if not fully trusted. Research our relationship with those countries before WW2, before the creation of Israel, you will change your mind very quickly. Our occupation of lands they see as holy is also a MAJOR concern for the Arab population.
Reagan, "a long time ago"???????? lol. Yes I remember we were the Great Satan, that was my whole point, leaders always use a common enemy to keep their people's collective attention away from the truth. Do you really think if Iraq used it's VAST wealth to improve the living conditions of it's citizens, giving them a decent society with a viable economy, a future for their children, they would blame us for all their problems? It's alot easier to point at us and say, "theres the reason all of you suffer", keeps everyone on the same page and the focus off themselves.
Hopefully our leaders will be wise enough to use some of that enormous capital from the selling of Iraqi oil to rebuild the country into the JEWEL of the middle east. In a generation or less the people there will get used to living without fear, to having a voice in the way they are governed, the right to self determination in work and religion. What better way to curry favor than to give them a better life than they have now, one which allows them the freedom to believe and live as they wish, as long as they can respect those same rights for others. Theres the trick with religion, not much tolerance for opposing views, thank god church and state are so firmly separated here.
Cutting off Israel at the knees will be a reward for terror, and will only bolster the militants in the Arab world. It will either prolong the Arab-Jewish conflict indefintely, or escalate it to something that will make Hiroshima look like child's play.
The people who hate the US do so for it for what it represents- progress, democracy and worst of all,
secularism.
The people who hate the US do so for it for what it represents- progress, democracy and worst of all,
secularism.
America is the Great Satan because of its Western ideals and the strength of its power as a nation mostly, and because of its foreign policy partly. We are held up to view by antagonistic Muslim leaders to their people as a decadent society, corrupt and without morals. We are also used as a scapegoat for the ills suffered by their people, and as a means to distract the attention of the people such as what N.K. is doing now.
I agree that changes are overdue in some of our Mideast relationships but if you think that dropping support for Israel and pulling out troops from host Arab countries is going to change opinion there, you are mistaken. Even if we went completely hands-off in the Mideast, the simple fact that we are a superpower, both militarily and economically, means that we have a voice in the world that bears attention. We most certainly would not keep quiet regarding human rights abuses and other issues, nor should we, and our voice would carry a lot of weight. Because we do wield a great amount of power, we would be continually looked to from other countries to use this power to correct these ills. If we help, we will be resented. If we do not help, we will be resented. The simple fact that we have this power causes resentment.
I agree that changes are overdue in some of our Mideast relationships but if you think that dropping support for Israel and pulling out troops from host Arab countries is going to change opinion there, you are mistaken. Even if we went completely hands-off in the Mideast, the simple fact that we are a superpower, both militarily and economically, means that we have a voice in the world that bears attention. We most certainly would not keep quiet regarding human rights abuses and other issues, nor should we, and our voice would carry a lot of weight. Because we do wield a great amount of power, we would be continually looked to from other countries to use this power to correct these ills. If we help, we will be resented. If we do not help, we will be resented. The simple fact that we have this power causes resentment.
sandorski
No Lifer
IMO. The US doesn't need to abandon Israel, it just needs to get Israel to stop it's(Israel's) idiotic tit-for-tat policy against the Palestinians. The Israel-Palestinian conflict is nothing but an open sore that fuels anti-Americanism(and anti-Israel) sentiment in the Middle East. If the US would apply just a fraction(I dunno, halfish is a nice round figure) of the pressure on the Israeli-Palestinian conflict as it is on it's allies over the whole War on Iraq fiasco, then you could see a decline in Anti-American in the Middle East.
As for Kuwait shutting down it's Oil Fields: It doesn't matter how many troops are in Kuwait, if Iraq shelled or used SCUDS on the oil fields, the troops won't be able to protect the fields.
As for Kuwait shutting down it's Oil Fields: It doesn't matter how many troops are in Kuwait, if Iraq shelled or used SCUDS on the oil fields, the troops won't be able to protect the fields.
Talk with the palestinian authorities - and through mediation get them to do more about Hamas and their ilk. If Isreal and Palestine had more meaningful and constructive dialogue the steady flow of recruits to the Islamic terrorist groups may stem from the current flood to more like the trickle it was 3 years ago. It would be a start.
Andy
Vernor, no offense, but you sound like a real simpleton. That's 1st grade logic. Or George Bush logic. The two things are approximately equivelant. All of western Europe is democratic, secular, and has made tremendous progress. Are they hated too? Of course not. You probably think there are two kinds of people in the world too; "good" ones and "evil" ones...am I right?
So Vernor, what you are saying is that there's nothing we can do about the situation....i.e. there's no good reason for them to hate us, there's nothing we can do about it, so we might as well bomb the crap out of them before they bomb us????
I ain't buyin' it.....and I ain't votin' for it in 2004...
So Vernor, what you are saying is that there's nothing we can do about the situation....i.e. there's no good reason for them to hate us, there's nothing we can do about it, so we might as well bomb the crap out of them before they bomb us????
I ain't buyin' it.....and I ain't votin' for it in 2004...
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