An Abit BP6, Powerleap Neo s370, FC-PGA PIII and what the parrot saw

[mariner]

This is an update on an earlier thread I did. Also, I posted this on the BP6.com, BP6 Specific forum, but thought the AT community might have some good input.

I have the Abit BP6 dual PPGA 370 CPU board with the BX chipset. I wanted to upgrade processors. The PL-Neo s370 is designed to adapt a FC-PGA processor to a PPGA 370 socket. In the PL manual on page 5 it states that SMP is possible providing the correct processor stepping is used. In the Intel PIII Spec Update 24445348 document, page 8, it lists the PIII 1.10GHz SL5QW cD0 100MHZ as having "no known issues" for running DP (dual processor), as long as both processors are of this type.

When I stick the Neo s370/PIII combos on my fully functional board it won't POST. Nothing, a black screen. I don't think the BIOS even tries to initialize any hardware.

I know there are some adapter and mobo hacks but I have never done any micro-electronics repair and would rather hold that as a last desparate option.

Any ideas?

mariner

 

[KF]

link to previous thread

I don't know anything about the particular hardware involved. I gather that you know for certain this is a Coppermine and that the adapters are for Coppermines.

Can the mobo be operated in single CPU mode, so you can check the CPUs independently? Can you check the CPUs in a single processor mobo?

Some cross-socket370 mods don't work because of a BIOS bug, where ithe BIOS refuses to proceed with steppings for which it has no microcode. You can update the microcode, but that only updates the microcode for steppings that the BIOS already contains. Later BIOSs may not have this bug. ABIT is pretty good with BIOS updates for old mobos. There is also a sort of universal BIOS updater around for AWARD BIOSs that might do the trick. I have seen cases where people hacked the BIOS to substitute one microcode section for the CPU they actually have. It's kind of involved to explain how, but suffice it say the microcode is not compressed (like most of the BIOS is), so you can use an editor to put the right microcode in the BIOS binary, and flash that.

The problem with operating a CPU for which you mobo does not have any microcode is that it might be slightly unstable. The exact purpose of the microde is unknown, at least to me. It is supposed to correct some minor CPU problems though.

 

[mariner]

I don't know anything about the particular hardware involved. I gather that you know for certain this is a Coppermine and that the adapters are for Coppermines.

Yes, I'm sure of the hardware.

Can the mobo be operated in single CPU mode, so you can check the CPUs independently? Can you check the CPUs in a single processor mobo?

I tried a single adapter/PIII combo with the same results, no POST. However, I am running a dual cpu HAL install of Win2k, so I don't know how that would affect it. The box should POST no matter the OS, right?

Some cross-socket370 mods don't work because of a BIOS bug, where ithe BIOS refuses to proceed with steppings for which it has no microcode.

That might be a factor, but the PL website says even if the firmware doesn't recognize the processor it should still work. But then they also say this combo should work without a hack:disgust:

I am running the NJ BIOS revision. There is an official RU rev that fixes a non-related problem. And there are several other unofficial revisions that deal with the HPT drivers. I don't have any info that would indicate a change would help. However, I'm open to guidance on that matter.

I have seen cases where people hacked the BIOS to substitute one microcode section for the CPU they actually have. It's kind of involved to explain how, but suffice it say the microcode is not compressed (like most of the BIOS is), so you can use an editor to put the right microcode in the BIOS binary, and flash that.

I think hacking the BIOS is above my abilities at this time I would prolly end up having to hot swap.

The problem with operating a CPU for which you mobo does not have any microcode is that it might be slightly unstable. The exact purpose of the microde is unknown, at least to me. It is supposed to correct some minor CPU problems though.

If the non-recognition of the cpu by the BIOS is the problem, then Powerleap is misleading the public, and I'm due 2 RMAs. But I don't want to RMA, I wanna make this work.

Thanks for the input KF. Good food for thought.

mariner

 

[mechBgon]

Have you considered simply getting a dual-Coppermine mobo, or a powerful single-processor setup?

:Q <--- my face when I went from dual P3 733's to a single AthlonXP 1700+ @ same total MHz and a lot less $

 

[mariner]

Yes I have. But the price would have been about the same as this upgrade. Or it was before this one didn't work:brokenheart:
If I can't get this to work without a hack, then I will consider an adapter hack, then a single processor, then a mobo/cpu replacement. If I go to a different mobo I'll likely just go all the way up to a P4 and eBay this stuff

mariner

 

[Doh!]

I was pretty sure the NEO adapters were not compatible w/ BP-6 for running a dual setup. They were supposed to come up w/ a revised adapters but could not complete the revision due to certain "technical difficulties" (according to responses from the company in the forum). I have given up trying to upgraded my BP-6 because, AFAIK, the ONLY way to upgrade the cpus was to do a major hardware modification to the board & use the adapters. This is why my BP-6 has been just sitting in the corner of my room collecting dust

 

[mariner]

Doh!, everything I read indicates your experience is typical. However, the PL-Neo s370 manual (available at their site) states on page 5:

When used with * SMP-compliant CPUs, supports SMP (Symmetric Mul ti -Processi ng) on dual -Socket 370 motherboards.

* It is important to note that not all Pentium III (FC-PGA) CPUs are SMP compliant. To see if Pentium III CPU supports dual-processor operation, you need to know the version of the CPU (called ?stepping?). Check the Intel web site to see an updated list of the Pentium III CPUs and whether they support dual-processor operation.

The PIIIs I used are listed in spec update I mentioned in my frist post, as having "no known issues" relating to dual processing. So I thought I would give it the old college try. If PL knows these will never work in a DP mode they really should remove that statement from the manual.

mariner

 

[plangtry]

hello Mariner,
The PL-Neo S370 does indeed work with the BP6. However, you must use the special Ru BIOS. Are you aware of that? If you want I can send you a copy, or you can search the web. www.bp6.com should have a copy.

Paul L.

Powerleap Tech

 

[mariner]

Hey Paul,

Yes, BP6.com has several iterations of the RU flash I think. I was about to try 1 when YOU sent me a copy in response to a question I sent to PL support. Listen up folks, PL has responded to all 3 of my questions I sent them. Now that's support! I'm gonna flash tomorrow. Crossing my fingers, but the outstanding evidence is against me getting DP action without a mobo hack. Wish me luck. And thanks again Paul.

mariner

 

[Doh!]

I hope it works in SMP. If it works, I'm off to searching for a couple of old coppermine PIII's. Good luck.

 

[mariner]

Hey Doh!, better check Intel's spec sheets to be sure you are getting an s-spec that has "no known issues" with SMP. You have to match the steppings/s-spec. That's not too hard on eBay. I bot two SL5QW PIII 1.10GHz processors and saw several others. You can prolly just search the s-spec number in Computers & Electronics like I did.

I'll report back, but, despite the literature saying it's possible, I have not seen or heard of any PIIIs running SMP in a BP6 without a mobo hack. If it don't work for me, I think I'll just try to get 1 to work and "downgrade" my HAL to the "standard PC" config and go on.

mariner

 

[KF]

from Powerleap (10/17/2003):
>The PL-Neo S370 does indeed work with the BP6. However, you must use the special Ru BIOS.
> Are you aware of that?

Now there's a surprise.

from me (10/12/2003) :
>Some cross-socket370 mods don't work because of a BIOS bug ...

Why ask, if you aren't going to follow through?

 

[mariner]

No need to get bent outta shape KF. I did appreciate your earlier input. In fact, I did some reading up at BP6.com because of what you posted. After reading what those folks over there said, I was convinced that not even the RU flash with the PIII code would do the trick.

I came into this relatively unaware of the obstacles I was facing. After the initial attempt failed, and I read at BP6 that a mobo hack was the only way, I backed off for a little while to think about it. I am ready now to try the PIII RU flash but I do not think it will solve the problem. However, it may help me later if I attempt to run one PIII.

I haven't tried all the solutions that have been offered on the 3 forums I have discussed this on. Just like I didn't jump at the mobo hack, I didn't jump at the BIOS flash, yet. I'm ready to flash now. Who knows, I may be ready to hack later.

In any case, I do appreciate your input.

mariner

 

[KF]

Didn't mean to come across angry.

I can understand people being cautious, and you are evidently more cautious than most that show up on the forums.

But I read a lot threads like this, and not particularly where I am involved. To me the advice looks good, and not too hard to follow through on; yet the people who request help don't pay much attention.

Good luck to you. I'm not actually angry. Since the man from Powerleap seems to know about this RU BIOS, I'd get with it, even if you think I don't know what I'm talking about. If this doesn't totally solve your difficulties, be assured that it has for many people who have described their situation here and elsewhere when this sort of FCPGA mod was a newer thing. Not long ago, I did quite a lot of Internet research on the subject, when I couldn't get one of these mods to work, and I found a lot of references to these BIOS problems. Unfortunately there was no later BIOS available for that Emachines mobo. I was kind of surprised about the BIOS problems, because I actually did this mod with a sloket on an ABIT BH6 (with a BX chipset) when the FCPGA first came out. No problem. Then again, I have always upgraded to the latest BIOS in advance of trying something unusual. I wouldn't expect ABIT to mention this BIOS problem, because the mobo was never meant to work with those chips. They are not supported. It was AWARD that incorporated the change into their standard BIOSes after a certain revision. Like I said, some people have changed the BIOS themselves when they couldn't get that later BIOS for their mobo.

 

[mariner]

Flashed the RU BIOS from Powerleap, but still no smp. Only a black screen.

I was able to get one PIII to partially work in CPU socket #1. I could not use 100MHz FSB. I was only able to use 75MHZ. With anything over 75MHz FSB I could occasionally get to memory initiation before it locked. When I get that far POST says the processor is running at 1062MHz but then locks.

When I set the FSB to 75MHz the cpu runs at 825MHZ (WCPUID) and seems to boot reliably most of the time. When I the POST completes I get the "the cpu is damaged or has been changed, press F1 to continue or Del to enter setup." Does anyone know how to force POST to not stop at this step and just pass off to the OS so I don't have to press F1?

Paul, was that BIOS the one that contains the PIII micro code? Do you have any specific BIOS settings that might help?

After all is said and done it may be that some of the caps just are not up to snuff.

mariner

 

[mariner]

My apologies, I mistakenly posted this to the old thread. I have posted the same thing below. Sorry.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------
I flashed the bp6p3hpt BIOS found at bp6.com. I am running only 1 cpu in socket #1. I couldn't get it to boot the OS at FSB=100, 90 or 85MHz. I'm running at 66MHZ FSB right now (735MHZ). At 90 & 100 it wouldn't even complete the POST. Before this BIOS I was running the standard RU BIOS and could completely boot with an 85MHz FSB and sometimes with 90. So, the p3 version appears to be a step "backerds". Unless, there are some BIOS settings that could be tweaked for improvement. I tried a few and then tried reloading the defaults with the same result.

The Powerleap tech has been responsive and helpful. He said he had a BP6 board at work wnd would set it up to try and help find the right tweaks.

I think I'm running out of ideas. Looks like I'm destined to find the same fate as others, or maybe worse: I can't even get 1 cpu to run at full speed:brokenheart:
-------------------------------------------------------------------------

mariner

 

[plangtry]

Hi Mariner,
I'm makling headway. I should have a final response by Monday. Cross your fingers.

Paul

 

[mariner]

Thanks a lot Paul. I'm still tinkering with my box.

mariner

 

[mariner]

UPDATE:

I'm able to use BP6FSB or Speedfan to set the FSB to 100MHz after booting. I can only boot reliably now at 66MHZ (and maybe 70, have not tried it; 75-100 failed at various stages) but I can run at 100MHz FSB, maybe faster, after booting. Still only 1 cpu; 2 will not post.

Back to the BP6P3HPT BIOS code.

 

[Doh!]

I've read something about the boot issue (but then again it must've been well over a year ago, if not 2 yrs.) over at BP6.com. One of the hardware mod is particularly for the boot issue w/ a PIII I believe.

 

[mariner]

Yeah, those folks over there have done some fairly serious mobo mods. At this time those techniques are above me. I think my last hope for success with 2 CPUs is whatever plangtry can come up with. Right now I'm running the 1 cpu and using speedfan or bp6fsb to adjust the fsb to 100 after booting.

 

[mariner]

Well, it looks like the only solution to running dual coppermines on the BP6 is the mobo mod. The tech at Powerleap got back to me last night and his email is quoted below.

Hello Norm, I hate to be the bearer of bad new, but I couldn't get it runinng. My engineers swore that a mod was needed, but I had to try anyway. I'm sorry that I couldn't be of more assistance. I'd be happy to do the mods for you if you like. You would just need to take care of shipping. Let me know if you are interested. Please post this on the Anandtech site as well. I would be happy to help anyone else as well.
Paul

So my choices are:
1) go with the mod, or
2) just find a dual coppermine 370 board and can the BP6.

Since the BP6 will not run a single PIII stable at more than about 92MHzFSB, and will not boot at much more than 66MHz, it may need new caps in addition to the mod. I will likely go with a coppermine board if I can get one cheap. Looking back, I could have gone with a new board and a P4 2.4C for just a tad bit more than I have spent. I considered that at the beginning but a mobo change can make it difficult to migrate an OS install And I really wanted to make this work.

Kudos to Paul Langtry the PL tech. He is doing everything I could ask for to make this work. That's great support in my book. However, it does state in the PL manual these adapters will work in dual mode with the right processors. I think the BP6 was just not up to it.

Anyone know a good coppermine, socket 370 board??

Thanks for all the comments folks.

cya
mariner
(aka Norm)

 

[Doh!]

Finally, Powerleap in a way "officially" confirmed the fact that's been discovered more than two years ago by BP6 hardcore users. I've recently read an article that VIA has come up w/ SMP-capable socket 370 CPUs. Maybe BP6, along w/ a new adapter from Powerleap can utilize these CPUs. Regarding the cost/benefit factor you've mentioned, a couple of years ago, I'd also figured it would be cheaper (cost and time wise) for me to upgrade to a much faster single CPU system so I just upgraded all my systems to AMD but I do miss playing w/ a SMP system.

 

[mariner]

Last update. After a LOT of help from the PL tech, Paul Langtry, I decided to RMA the adapters and not do the mobo mod at this time. I got my RMA right away, no hassel. It's good to find that kind of support. Thanks a lot Paul. You can bet that if I need adapters in the future, I'll buy Powerleap.

mariner