America's wealth gap 'unsustainable,' may worsen: Harvard study

[Zorkorist]

No.

We are living on debt.

On the FORCE of Government.

It's tragically close to crashing.

Economics 101, would tell you it is doomed.

Read, "The History of the Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire."

-John

 

[Zorkorist]

Another silly misdirection, you are somehow under the very naive impression that the debt is somehow meant to be paid off. Hey it sound like a scary big number but trust me it'll get bigger. The first time I saw Ross Perot point out our billion dollar debt I thought the sky was going to fall. We are a debt base economy. It is mathematically impossible to ever pay off the national debt since the day we got off the gold standard. We sustain the debt by printing more money, and the problem the OP pointed out is that while new greens get printed, it floats to the upper .1% of the swimming pool.

So, I take it your solution is to kill the rich people, and take their money?

I mean our money.

I mean the money we keep printing.

Maybe we could let the rich people live, and just print money for the poor people?

-John

 

[positivedoppler]

The only way we're going to improve our lives is to kick out both Democrats and Republicans. Both parties are beyond corrupt and I don't think we will never see change until they are both vanquished.

I agree. I think the problem is mostly in the upper .1% becoming way too powerful.
But the Democrat keeps directing the hate of the lower 40% towards the upper 10% while the Republicans keeps directing the hate of the upper 30% towards the lower 40% by telling them that the reason they are not more prosperous is because too many people are on food stamp. It's a great way to keep the country divided by hate and fear and never realizing the real problem.

 

[Zorkorist]

Print money faster than the rich people can take it?

Bigger, faster, money printing machines?

Money printing robots?

-John

 

[Zorkorist]

Sorry Doppler, but you lost me...

suffice to say I think you have a lot to learn.

-John

 

[Mai72]

I agree. I think the problem is mostly in the upper .1% becoming way too powerful.
But the Democrat keeps directing the hate of the lower 40% towards the upper 10% while the Republicans keeps directing the hate of the upper 30% towards the lower 40% by telling them that the reason they are not more prosperous is because too many people are on food stamp. It's a great way to keep the country divided by hate and fear and never realizing the real problem.

Yea. I think the big issue is that we're so divided as a country. In the past, we could find common ground. Even if we disagreed on something we could find common ground that would benefit America. Now? Not so much.

We wage war against the poor, rich, educators, unions, liberals, bible thumpers, minorities, illegal aliens, young, old, South, North East, etc...

 

[positivedoppler]

No.

We are living on debt.

On the FORCE of Government.

It's tragically close to crashing.

Economics 101, would tell you it is doomed.

Read, "The History of the Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire."

-John

This is far beyond anything that can be compared to the Roman Empire.
The Debt base system is a double edge sword. Our country raised to the top with it and now we have to pay the piper. By going into a Debt base monetary system, we allowed for cheap money and easy borrowing. With the ability to stimulate a massive influx of cap into the economy fueled by government spending and corporation building through easy borrowing. Try borrowing money money to start a business if we're still under the gold standard. MUCH MUCH harder. By utilizing a debt based economy, we've managed to build the riches and most powerful corporations on earth. These powerful corporations insure our technological supremacy against all other country on earth so clearly we benefited.

The problem is that at the other side of the double edge sword is that when you print debt to pay debt, you can only make more debt. Money's got to keep printing to keep the system going and the more you print the more you have to be creative with its distribution.

 

[positivedoppler]

Print money faster than the rich people can take it?

Bigger, faster, money printing machines?

Money printing robots?

-John

Let me put it in a manner that numerous people on this forum can relate. Have you ever played Diablo 2, Diablo 3, or World of Warcraft? Why does Blizzard keep releasing updates? It's simple, more powerful players find ways to game the system to make themselves more powerful. It becomes increasingly more and more difficult for the weaker players to keep up. That is why Blizzard keeps releasing updates as we so often hear for the sake of re-balancing the field. It really is for the sake of making the game more enjoyable for everyone. If Blizzard never released an update then eventually we'll be left with one guy running around with the sword of 1000 truths ruling everyone like a Nazi.

You see, the problem with our country right now is that the ones who figured out how to game the system are also the ones who are releasing the updates. This will remain the case until we boot out both phuckards out of office. But the dumbing down of America by Fox News and MSNBC insures that the rest of America will be too busy hating each other to ever figure out whats wrong.

 

[sportage]

Merchants need consumers buying their goods in order to survive.
Nothing worse than hearing the Walton Walmart family is hurting due to slumping sales.
It brings tears to ones eyes. sniff sniff
If one does not pay the employee a fair livable wage, that creates true trickle up effect.
Forget about trickle down. Trickle up is indeed fact and much more connected to overall economy health.

And besides, as my sister would say that the bible predicts in the final days merchants will cry out and pound their chest because no one can buy their goods.
(Something like that....)

 

[Zorkorist]

I agree with your statement. Local government is a big issue in New Jersey. I'm from the garden state. We pay the highest property taxes in America. Why? Because we have a bloated government. Police officers are retiring at 55 and collecting state pensions that they are going to probably collect for the next 30 years. The system is broke. It's busted and is in a dire need of fixing. We all need to sacrifice, but when Chris Christie proposes pension reform, the police union wants to chop off his head. The party is over! We need to take drastic steps, or else future generations are going to pay dearly.

The welfare recipients is another big issue. I know a lot of people who game the system. They work under the table while collecting their monthly checks. I'm talking about able bodied grown men who are capable of work. I have no problem helping out people if they desperately need it. If you've been collecting welfare for 20 years then the state needs to investigate. They rarely do and that's a shame.

The reason most people attack the 1% is because they are the most hated. I guess jealousy is an issue. I wonder how many people smile to themselves when they hear or read in the news when a billionaire dies from a car or plane crash. Most people don't like other people when they are successful.

The middle class is slowly vanishing. That's a fact. The cause off this isn't just one thing, but a combination of things that has been brewing since the mid-70s. We need to create good paying jobs. Most people want to work, and they want to have a nice lifestyle. Is that too much to ask?

Mai,

I couldn't go to bed without re-reading your post, and thanking you, because I believe a lot the way you do to. Sometimes I get carried away fighting against those whom I disagree with, and don't stop to say I agree with you, and you are right, to the folks I agree with.

Good post.

-John

 

[Mai72]

Merchants need consumers buying their goods in order to survive.
Nothing worse than hearing the Walton Walmart family is hurting due to slumping sales.
It brings tears to ones eyes. sniff sniff
If one does not pay the employee a fair livable wage, that creates true trickle up effect.
Forget about trickle down. Trickle up is indeed fact and much more connected to overall economy health.

And besides, as my sister would say that the bible predicts in the final days merchants will cry out and pound their chest because no one can buy their goods.
(Something like that....)

The merchants are thinking about the future. They are too consumed with the present. What can they get right now! This is important to them, but in the end they are cutting off the hand that feeds them.

Plus, they are beholden to the shareholders. They don't want to hear about the future. They want it NOW NOW NOW! Screw everyone and f*** the American public. We want the money now!

 

[Mai72]

Mai,

I couldn't go to bed without re-reading your post, and thanking you, because I believe a lot the way you do to. Sometimes I get carried away fighting against those whom I disagree with, and don't stop to say I agree with you, and you are right, to the folks I agree with.

Good post.

-John

Thanks.

I guess we could also lay blame on the fact that most Americans don't have the necessary tools to compete with the global economy.

I still don't think it's just one thing. The issues that we face today are numerous. Not enough good paying jobs, skills gap, bloated government, welfare, corrupt politicians and CEOs, gap etc...

The gap between the rich and poor is growing and the middle class are caught right in the middle. We are the ones that are suffering.

 

[positivedoppler]

I agree with your statement. Local government is a big issue in New Jersey. I'm from the garden state. We pay the highest property taxes in America. Why? Because we have a bloated government. Police officers are retiring at 55 and collecting state pensions that they are going to probably collect for the next 30 years. The system is broke. It's busted and is in a dire need of fixing. We all need to sacrifice, but when Chris Christie proposes pension reform, the police union wants to chop off his head. The party is over! We need to take drastic steps, or else future generations are going to pay dearly.

The welfare recipients is another big issue. I know a lot of people who game the system. They work under the table while collecting their monthly checks. I'm talking about able bodied grown men who are capable of work. I have no problem helping out people if they desperately need it. If you've been collecting welfare for 20 years then the state needs to investigate. They rarely do and that's a shame.

The reason most people attack the 1% is because they are the most hated. I guess jealousy is an issue. I wonder how many people smile to themselves when they hear or read in the news when a billionaire dies from a car or plane crash. Most people don't like other people when they are successful.

The middle class is slowly vanishing. That's a fact. The cause off this isn't just one thing, but a combination of things that has been brewing since the mid-70s. We need to create good paying jobs. Most people want to work, and they want to have a nice lifestyle. Is that too much to ask?

I live in NJ too. The high property tax and nazi townships sucks, I'm getting out of here eventually. Some of the local townships don't view themselves as government servants but people in position of power who are there to put you in your place. I also work for a large corporation that keeps striping us of benefits while corporate profits are at a record high.

I'm not as familiar with NJ's history. How on earth did local government benefits and taxes got to be so out of control?

 

[Mai72]

I live in NJ too. The high property tax and nazi townships sucks, I'm getting out of here eventually. Some of the local townships don't view themselves as government servants but people in position of power who are there to put you in your place. I also work for a large corporation that keeps striping us of benefits while corporate profits are at a record high.

I'm not as familiar with NJ's history. How on earth did local government benefits and taxes got to be so out of control?

How? It started in the 1950s. During this time police officers weren't making much money. To entice more people to be cops local government started to offer more benefits. Upon retiring they would receive a nice pension with health benefits. This was all fine because cop pay was relatively low. Also, most people were dying younger than they do today. Government didn't envision that people would live for another 30 years on their pensions.

The mid-90s was when NJ cops started to see huge pay increases. Police officers who were making $25-30k a year were making 50k, 60k even more. Currently we have cops who make $120k a year patrolling shore towns. These are areas that are sparsely populated in the winter. When I was home last year I had 3 cops following me because they have nothing else to do.

Also, the police unions are in with the local politicians. They work hand in hand to ensure that they receive excellent pay and superior benefits. We have cops retiring in their 50's collecting $70k a year pensions. This in with full benefits. Obviously, this is unsustainable. We are in for some rough times.

 

[Victorian Gray]

No.

We are living on debt.

On the FORCE of Government.

It's tragically close to crashing.

Economics 101, would tell you it is doomed.

Read, "The History of the Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire."

-John

"Except for about a year during 1835–1836, the United States has continuously held a public debt since its Constitution went into effect on March 4, 1789."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_United_States_public_debt

Roughly 225 years of being "doomed".

 

[OverVolt]

How about you all stop being stupid.

 

[Matt1970]

Another silly misdirection, you are somehow under the very naive impression that the debt is somehow meant to be paid off. Hey it sound like a scary big number but trust me it'll get bigger. The first time I saw Ross Perot point out our billion dollar debt I thought the sky was going to fall. We are a debt base economy. It is mathematically impossible to ever pay off the national debt since the day we got off the gold standard. We sustain the debt by printing more money, and the problem the OP pointed out is that while new greens get printed, it floats to the upper .1% of the swimming pool.

Why is it debt is perfectly fine depending on who is in the White House?

 

[IndyColtsFan]

I wish more Americans would travel overseas to see that we aren't the greatest anymore. The quality of life that I have in Thailand is better than the life I lead in America. We still foolishly believe that we're the best, and our quality of life surpasses every other country. America is great! That's if you have the money. If you don't have the funds then you're in for a rude awakening.

I've traveled overseas extensively (going to Europe again in a few weeks) and better is highly subjective. For example, I do envy the way Europeans live in the sense that they aren't "career-oriented" the way Americans are and they seem to love and enjoy life. On the other hand, when I've been in other countries for a few weeks, I really miss my home (huge compared to European standards) and many of the things we have in the US.

Executives lost touch with the rest of the population years ago when everyone became concerned with performance quarter-over-quarter instead of long-term growth and strategy. IMO, this has caused many unsound, hasty business decisions that have had a profound impact on our society. Executives need a market for their products and the more Americans that can't afford their products, the more their sales will slump. China and India may eventually take up some of the slack, but that is by no means guaranteed.

The way I view it is that people aren't going to sit around and starve, so either businesses provide domestic jobs (rather than outsourcing them) or the taxpayers will be supporting an ever-increasing segment of the population. I obviously prefer that the private sector take this burden on rather than the federal government.

Not everyone is capable of becoming an engineer, lawyer, doctor, programmer, etc, and this new idea that you should just "get MORE education" while simultaneously going into even more debt is absurd. Very, very few jobs (even professional ones) require MBAs (for example) and yet, people are going into debt to get them hoping that it'll be enough to get a career and sadly, it isn't working for most of them and they're left with nothing but a huge pile of debt. Companies no longer train their employees and invest in them the way they once did, and that's part of the reason we're in the mess we're in.

 

[Texashiker]

The way I view it is that people aren't going to sit around and starve, so either businesses provide domestic jobs (rather than outsourcing them) or the taxpayers will be supporting an ever-increasing segment of the population. I obviously prefer that the private sector take this burden on rather than the federal government.

Why do you think democrats want to grant amnesty and citizenship to millions of illegals? Chances are those new citizens will vote democrat. We will see a new age of taxation and welfare ushered in.

As for the opening post, but yet we complain when fast food workers demand a liveable wage? You can not have both. You can not say someone does not deserve a liveable wage when the employer is capable of paying higher wages.

Ross Perot warned us back in the 1990s this would happen. The "sucking sound" for the past 20 years is our jobs and financial future going to china.

If you want to end income inequality, end free trade.

Tell apple that if they want to sell their phones and tablets here in the USA, then they have to be made here. Instant recovery and jobs.

 

[Sonikku]

eh we'll cross that bridge when we come to it, Harvard.

 

[jhbball]

Never mind what you have, look what the other guy has.

Yeah, why do shit can republicans covet what the poor have?

 

[Attic]

No.

We are living on debt.

On the FORCE of Government.

It's tragically close to crashing.

Economics 101, would tell you it is doomed.

Read, "The History of the Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire."

-John

Our debt load is 100% unsustainable if it increases further against output and absent further extraordinary measures like numerous QE's.

Don't count out power of money printing though with reserve currency status. We have a long ways to go and rates on debt can still come down quite a bit.

One of main issues with government debt is it has been an enabler of bad policy and IMO helps drives income inequality as it is used now and has been used. Government debt is often simply private sector profit. That's why lobbyists are busy fighting over sucking meat off the bone.

In debt the country (and our children) a few hundred billion more, then hand over the billions to pet projects and political insiders schemes/endeavors. The areas around DC are exploding with wealth growth. Debt dollars at work.

The government debt is not there to help the poor, it's their to serve the rich at the expense of the many. The rich largely own that debt and thus own significant amounts of labor proceeds of the american workforce. Further indebting at high levels the commoner through his need to service the debt through inflation and taxes is not a problem for those at the top of the system who are net benefiters from the debt.

Numbers are failry clear as government debt has exploded since 2000; wealthy get much more wealthy, majority of folks see little increase and many are net losers. It's more significant taken from 2007.

If the debt was spent differently, ...., as it is now it gets put back into a system that skims from the many to give to the few.

The government power of issuing staggering amounts of debt onto the backs of Americans also grants huge power to a government increasingly absent any real pulse of the average American worker or family (worthless lip service rhetoric not withstanding). Directing that debt, directs the economy. Government is failing at this.

Government pays lip service to suffering inner cities, lip service to the children in schools, lip service to roads and bridges,.. all in order to take more from the average worker. It's a sleight of hand often missed and not discussed, but if you're sacrificing part of your livelihood to help inner cities, schools, children, roads+bridges through the proxy of government, their should be some shame. That money is going to service a status quo that is more intent on servicing the rich than helping inner cities or schools.

 

[IndyColtsFan]

Why do you think democrats want to grant amnesty and citizenship to millions of illegals? Chances are those new citizens will vote democrat. We will see a new age of taxation and welfare ushered in.

That might be. The Democrats are the party of the poor and the Republicans are the party of the wealthy. Who is left to care about the middle class?

 

[Genx87]

That might be. The Democrats are the party of the poor and the Republicans are the party of the wealthy. Who is left to care about the middle class?

Eh the democrats are also the party of the wealthy.

 

[IndyColtsFan]

Eh the democrats are also the party of the wealthy.

Yes, of course -- both are bought and paid for but the Democrats love to throw crumbs to the poor as their "defenders."