America's support for Saudi despotism

[realibrad]

Please. Iraq used poison gas against Iran on a regular basis & I don't recall America's right wing whining about it. To expect them to act any differently with rebellious populations while engaged in an existential struggle would be foolish.

Perhaps you'd care to explain how HE, Willy Peter, napalm & cluster munitions are somehow less offensive.

So you believe that the Iraq war was worse than anything any tyrant has done before? Because that was the argument he made. That is why I said it was horrible no doubt, but not the worst thing ever in history because it was not.

 

[Jhhnn]

So you believe that the Iraq war was worse than anything any tyrant has done before? Because that was the argument he made. That is why I said it was horrible no doubt, but not the worst thing ever in history because it was not.

When you need to put words in my mouth, you've already lost.

I merely question your going on about poison gas as if it were really different & how there was no problemo about it when Saddam was all buddy-buddy with the Reagan Admin. There wasn't any noise about the whole Al Anfal campaign at all. La-la-la.

Using it as an excuse for our own misdeeds is more than a little bit trite.

"He wuz killing his own people, so we killed a shit pile more, ourselves! Merricuh! Hell Yeah!"

But we didn't use poison gas, so it's all peachy.

 

[realibrad]

When you need to put words in my mouth, you've already lost.

I merely question your going on about poison gas as if it were really different & how there was no problemo about it when Saddam was all buddy-buddy with the Reagan Admin. There wasn't any noise about the whole Al Anfal campaign at all. La-la-la.

Using it as an excuse for our own misdeeds is more than a little bit trite.

"He wuz killing his own people, so we killed a shit pile more, ourselves! Merricuh! Hell Yeah!"

But we didn't use poison gas, so it's all peachy.

You seem to misunderstand the point of my original post.

I said Iraq was horrible. It was wrong to do. That said, it was not worse than anything any tyrant has ever done before. I am not going to justify Iraq because there was not a justification for it. What I am not going to do is make it seem like it was the worst thing any government has ever done ever. That argument is stupid and only detracts from the real issues of Iraq.

 

[Jaskalas]

Here's a picture worth a thousand words...

 

[Jhhnn]

You seem to misunderstand the point of my original post.

I said Iraq was horrible. It was wrong to do. That said, it was not worse than anything any tyrant has ever done before. I am not going to justify Iraq because there was not a justification for it. What I am not going to do is make it seem like it was the worst thing any government has ever done ever. That argument is stupid and only detracts from the real issues of Iraq.

I can go with that.

KSA is, however, an extreme example of modern tyranny. The House of Saud rules by Divine Right & enforces that with religious police. Their version of the inquisition is ongoing, with heretics beheaded rather than burned at the stake. Repression of their people is extreme, particularly women. Nothing has changed since religious police drove school girls back into a burning building in 2002 to satisfy their sense of propriety. No head scarves, you see.

But I'm sure Righties will easily find a way to wail about the dangers of Sharia Law while supporting a govt that enforces it.

 

[cirrrocco]

Yemen?

Violent rebels overthrew the government there... it's open season for anyone who has an interest. Saudis obviously have a great interest and they are involved. They didn't start the violence, but they may be the ones to finish it.

Why should I oppose Saudis getting involved in Yemen?

So Russia doing the same in Eastern Ukraine is ok then, i presume. The saudis have been needline Iran for eons in Iraq, Syria and Iran decides it is niw time for payback and get the fire little closer to Saudi barbaria

 

[cirrrocco]

a memorable article by tarek Fateh,

http://tarekfatah.com/saudi-arabia-fools-the-west-again-toronto-sun-op-ed-on-the-yemen-war/

Now the Saudis have taken on the task of restoring democracy in Yemen by backing President Abd Rabbuh Mansur Hadi, who was ousted in a popular insurgency by the Ansar Allah Party, better known as the Houthis.

The only problem is that none of the countries in the Saudi-led coalition of oil-rich Gulf Arab sheikhdoms that purportedly seek to restore democracy in Yemen have ever faced their own electorates.

In addition, they are the very countries that have been the source of funding for the world’s worst jihadi terrorist organizations, nations that have funded tens of thousands of Islamic madrassahs that churn out jihadis willing to die for Islam’s victory over the kufaar, the hated non-Muslim infidel.

 

[Jaskalas]

a memorable article by tarek Fateh,

http://tarekfatah.com/saudi-arabia-fools-the-west-again-toronto-sun-op-ed-on-the-yemen-war/

"Seek to restore Democracy", is that what Yemen had? I figure the military action is simply meant to restore the Yemen government. To restore peace and order. Challenges to that aren't from some PR tagline of Democracy, but stem from more practical questions.

Are the Houthis terrorists, religious fanatics? Do they deserve to win?
Are they purging Yemen the way ISIS purges its territory?
Can military action restore the Yemeni government?

If we opposed the Gulf states alliance, and their military action in Yemen... just what the hell could we do about it anyway?

 

[Jhhnn]

Here's a picture worth a thousand words...

In ways you never intended. Which of the countries offering military support are not autocracies?

Looks like the middle eastern version of the good old boys' club from here.

But, uhh, never mind, cuz Evil Iranians supposedly offered the Houthi a little help while KSA resorts to airstrikes & ground troops while the deposed Hadi runs govt in exile from Riyadh. But only with foreign troops, of course. Otherwise, the fighting would mostly be over & the Yemenis would be figuring it out for themselves with a lot less blood, but we just can't have that. Huh-uhh! It's another version of the Great Game & we intend to win no matter how many Yemenis need to die for that to happen.

It's a rare time in History that the Yemenis weren't fighting among themselves, and an even rarer one when foreign intervention didn't make it worse.

 

[Omar F1]

Like I said, Iraq was horrible and does not need anyone to exaggerate how horrible it was. Simply looking at historical facts shows how bad it was. But, that does not mean you need to say stupid shit like its the worse than anything a tyrant has ever done. There are far more things that have killed more and made many more suffer than Iraq.

You missed my point, I'm only talking here about US vs Arabs. I said I consider it the US' worst crime upon this region since what they did to Japan.
How many civilians the US forces had exactly killed in Iraq doesn't concern me as much as the collective damage and chaos caused by their invasion and subsequent events that followed.

I hope you understand that we (Arabs) observe, watch and hear some stuff that you guys don't. Two different views from very far away places.

 

[norseamd]

Here's a picture worth a thousand words...

Not in that infograph.

Oman.

And that is worth far more than 10000 words .....

 

[norseamd]

Their version of the inquisition is ongoing, with heretics beheaded and crucified rather than burned at the stake. Repression of their people is extreme, particularly women and minorities.

FTFY

 

[IronWing]

This goes deeper than Arab vs Arab violence.

 

[The Green Bean]

Not in that infograph.

Oman.

And that is worth far more than 10000 words .....

Another big omission from the list is Pakistan. The Saudi media was claiming Pakistani troops were already on the way. A joint session of Parliament debated and passed a unanimous resolution opposing sending any troops to invade another country and kill Muslims. We are finally seeing the fruits of democracy.

The irony is that none of the invaders fighting to save a democracy are democracies. How stupid does on have to be to see beyond their official line of wanting to save a "legitimate government?" The wanted some more credibility. They didn't get it.

Pakistan's defiance of the Arabs has caused a huge diplomatic row. We have 2 million+ Pakistanis working in Arab countries and they are treated like dirt. The UAE has already threatened us with severe consequences for betraying brotherly nations--yes right: brotherly. We have no rights in Arab countries and Pakistanis can't marry a Saudi woman or man.

This is also a huge military setback. The Saudis might be the richest military with the latest weapons and a budget that is the third biggest in the world, but they don't have the training to fight in the mountains against Yemeni militias. They were expecting to use us as cannon fodder--to stand in the front line while the Saudi generals enjoy the view from their AC bunkers.

I hope I have not made my disdain for the Arabs too obvious. ; )

 

[The Green Bean]

As Iraq has proven, far worse atrocities occur if you fail to restore order. Sometimes the cost of that is high, but that's why I'd encourage the governments of that region to take the lead in seeing it done. They know the ground situation far better than us. It's their call how to fight.

Now, if they start waging a genocide of their own, then condemnation for those acts is proper. There is a line that should be defined and not crossed. You cite a single incident, and I'll take your word that it happened, but that does not move me because it does not indicate a pattern of intent.

What was the body count?
How many times have refugee camps been bombed?
Was the target properly and knowingly chosen?
Were there military targets among them?

Details of the incident are necessary. You are the news bearer for this, the person bringing it to my attention but you provide no links to cite, no support to make your case. I think I need a very good reason to get involved and take action that risks turning Yemen into a quagmire.

http://www.theguardian.com/world/20...i-controlled-northern-yemen-kills-at-least-21

We replaced Saddam with a weak Democracy, and a genocide has since resulted. Should we accept such groups taking over the governments of Egypt, Libya, Syria, Yemen, Iraq, Afghanistan, and Pakistan? Maybe we should protect those governments and not see them fall.

Perhaps Democracy needs to be put on hold in the Middle East if the consequences of it are groups like ISIS.

What good would more death and destruction do for them? Are you saying you want an American lead "Operation Bahraini Freedom", because Iraq was such a smashing success? You are happy with what we did there? No? Then what would you have us do?

Some parts of Iraq are much better off now than under Saddam. I visited Najaf and Karbala last month and despite whats happening in the north, people are generally positive.

Says the man whose country housed Bin Laden. Pakistan tortured the doctor that helped us, and you'd give advice on who our friends and enemies are?
You say a lot about the Saudis while leaving out the nuclear elephant in the room.

The fake campaign led by the CIA caused more harm than good. Just to catch one man, the CIA has put millions of lives at stake. The fake polio vaccines means that not only did many children who think they are vaccinated are not, but it gives some parents legitimate reason to believe these drops are an American conspiracy.

Just how close are your ties to Iran and the Shias?

Not very. The Iranian Mullas are wackos but at least they don't force their beliefs upon anyone.

UN sanctions Houthis in Yemen

So where exactly is the justification of the Saudi bombing? The Houthis may be bad in the eyes of the UN but that doesn't legalize the Saudi act of war. There is no way that a UNSC resolution will pass legalizing the campaign.

Russia is the violent aggressor in Ukraine.
Just as the Houthis are the violent aggressor in Yemen.

And I am Warren Buffet.

 

[Omar F1]

"Seek to restore Democracy", is that what Yemen had? I figure the military action is simply meant to restore the Yemen government. To restore peace and order. Challenges to that aren't from some PR tagline of Democracy, but stem from more practical questions.

Are the Houthis terrorists, religious fanatics? Do they deserve to win?
Are they purging Yemen the way ISIS purges its territory?
Can military action restore the Yemeni government?
If we opposed the Gulf states alliance, and their military action in Yemen... just what the hell could we do about it anyway?

Houthi isn't compared to ISIS at all. We believe they're another exact copy of Hezbollah (Iranian proxy) in Yemen. That's simply why the Gulf states are refusing their authority over Yemen, and now the poor people there are paying a heavy price in the conflict.

About US role, well, they're are already on standby for any necessary intervention if the war escalated enough. The US can't offer to lose Saudi Arabia into the hands of Iran and Russia from behind it.
Nonetheless, if they choose to stand and watch incase Iran went suicidal and shipped Iranian troops to Yemen, then I guess you guys would have much fun watching us killing each other in this region like never before in recent history


I believe if the Arabs are really intending to save the Yemeni people then I guess we need an overwhelming ground forces a.s.a.p. to secure the land and make sure civilians are being safe.

Here's a picture worth a thousand words...

I disagree, as the SA is the real force behind the strikes with very much smaller negligible role by others. Although the Egyptians could play a very important role incase the ground invasion has started.

Not in that infograph.

Oman.

And that is worth far more than 10000 words .....

One of my friends has moved recently to work in Oman, I was really surprised when he told me about how much they're peaceful and kind people. Although they aren't as rich compared to other neighbor states.
I like how they managed to stay peaceful and neutral in many conflicts in this region and their role in Yemen does make all the sense.
Simply, I imagine them telling the Saudi to resolve it peacefully and they don't want to see the Yemeni people taking refugee all around starting from Oman itself.

This goes deeper than Arab vs Arab violence.

What the ......
Western propaganda at it's peak

 

[Jaskalas]

So where exactly is the justification of the Saudi bombing? The Houthis may be bad in the eyes of the UN but that doesn't legalize the Saudi act of war. There is no way that a UNSC resolution will pass legalizing the campaign.

Your passion for this question has given me pause. I too will stop to ask what exactly is wrong with the Houthis besides their overthrow of the Yemen government. News of their atrocities, if any, are hard to find.

Mostly though, it's because I don't see how Saudi airstrikes will restore the former Yemen government. If all they can do is turn a bad situation worse, then how can I condone that?

If anyone here would like to argue against the Houthis, now would be a welcomed time to hear that argument.

 

[norseamd]

If anyone here would like to argue against the Houthis, now would be a welcomed time to hear that argument.

Read this.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shia_Islam_in_Saudi_Arabia

 

[Hugo Drax]

I am amused that the bastion of freedom, liberty and democracy is able to support a regime like the Saudis. Why is there no opposition to this illegal war and American support? The crimes and brutality of the Saudis are not hidden to anyone. Hidden interests aside, how has the American government been able to send off "logistical and intelligence assistance" in support of a dictator when all it's previous wars were justified as liberation against dictatorship.

It's amazing how the Saudis have been able to get away from this without any mass condemnation from the rest of the World.

Muslims are better behaved under brutal dictatorships. Look at how things are going in IRAQ.

Some people are not ready for democracy and would be better off under such regimes.

 

[The Green Bean]

Muslims are better behaved under brutal dictatorships. Look at how things are going in IRAQ.

Some people are not ready for democracy and would be better off under such regimes.

I disagree. Democracies have failed because leaders are power hungry striving to effectively be absolute rulers. Underdeveloped systems; media, courts and parliaments give the executive the means to do so. Afghanistan and Pakistan have seen relative success with new democracies. As a Pakistani, I can't confidently say that we are moving towards further devolution of power and there is very little risk of another coup.

 

[realibrad]

I disagree. Democracies have failed because leaders are power hungry striving to effectively be absolute rulers. Underdeveloped systems; media, courts and parliaments give the executive the means to do so. Afghanistan and Pakistan have seen relative success with new democracies. As a Pakistani, I can't confidently say that we are moving towards further devolution of power and there is very little risk of another coup.

What you just argued is that the people and their society are not ready for Democracy. I agree that a Democracy needs to have the things you listed, but its not a chicken and egg situation. All Democracies start developing all things together, and Democracy comes from those things.

Muslims are not inherently bad people. Its a culmination of individual choices and history. Yes, outsiders have done huge amounts of damage, and you have tribal leaders who want powers. You also have individuals not wanting to stop it or speak out because of fear.

 

[Omar F1]

Your passion for this question has given me pause. I too will stop to ask what exactly is wrong with the Houthis besides their overthrow of the Yemen government. News of their atrocities, if any, are hard to find.

Mostly though, it's because I don't see how Saudi airstrikes will restore the former Yemen government. If all they can do is turn a bad situation worse, then how can I condone that?

If anyone here would like to argue against the Houthis, now would be a welcomed time to hear that argument.

Meanwhile, we hear almost each and everyday the local news about Houthis shelling and attacking civilians. (mainly either al Jazeera from Qatar or al Arabia, which is SA based channel)

Now of course, taking into account a three weeks of continuous airstrikes without bringing the subject of civilian causalities and mistakes doesn't make any sense and put a lot of question marks on the coalition's credibility.

However, I'd like also to emphasize the fact that the other side, al Houthi and their allies of Iran and Hezbollah, aren't to be trusted with news at all.
They already proved to be a flat-out-liars, especially when they talk about al-Yemen rights while Hezbollah and Iran are committing a continuous massacre on the Syrian people. It's very funny actually as they both kept barking since day one of the SA strikes, but that won't affect the fact that they're both a true war criminals.

 

[Omar F1]

Read this.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shia_Islam_in_Saudi_Arabia

Honestly I wasn't aware of such discrimination until you previously pointed it out for me.

However, you tell me, would you rather allow Muslims to be in charge of some critical and very sensitive positions in the US?
Don't answer me, but whether it's yes or no, feel free to apply the same answer on SA land.

 

[norseamd]

However, you tell me, would you rather allow Muslims to be in charge of some critical and very sensitive positions in the US?

Depends on the individual.

Considering current and past political, societal, cultural, and religious problems with various different ethnical or religious cultures bickering over control or representation in multi-culture countries I think it is clear that the Shiites in Southwest Arabia need to have their own sovereign state that is separate from both the Saudi Sunni and Yemen Sunni so that all cultures may live their daily life and not have to survive under the conflict and oppression of any other cultures.

This goes for the Kurds and Assyrians also and they are Sunni and Christian so it is not just the Shiites who are oppressed in certain areas right now.

 

[MongGrel]

Not trying to be overly simplistic about it, just thought would interject it.


The Kingdom (2007) | Intro Cinematic


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VW71JuzHr5o


Most here are aware of these anyways, I'm sure.