Americans attacking Kenya. A parallel.

[AViking]

http://edition.cnn.com/2013/09/22/us/kenya-attack-somalis/index.html?hpt=hp_t1

I remember after 911 how there was quite an outcry against Saudi Arabia since most of the Hijackers came from there (15 of the 19). As if we should have attacked Saudi Arabia instead of Afghanistan.

In a message on its now-suspended Twitter page, Al-Shabaab named nine people it said were among the gunmen who stormed Nairobi's Westgate Mall on Saturday. Three of them were from the United States and one each was from Canada, Finland and the United Kingdom, it said.

Today we're on day 3 of an attack in Kenya that has left 69 dead and almost 200 injured and we are learning that those responsible are from western countries.

It's very easy to discount that previous logic that we used a dozen years ago now.

 

[Doppel]

Al-Shabaab named

This is about as far as one needs to read. This is the group that just massacred dozens in the mall, so I think we should at the very least corroborate their claims before holding them up as truth. If it is indeed true I wonder how truly "American" these people are; are they citizens? Have they lived in the US for long in the past? It's likely safe to say they didn't recently leave the US to go on a murder spree in Kenya.

 

[AViking]

Well I think it's something worth thinking about. I lived next to 2 of the 911 hijackers. I obviously didn't know them but they were something like 4 blocks from my apartment. Being "American" is a pretty broad term since we're such a melting pot.

 

[nehalem256]

"Three of them were from the United States and one each was from Canada, Finland and the United Kingdom"

So out of 9 people most of them did not come from the US. And in fact if you take into account the relative populations it was more likely for a gunmen to originate from Canada, Finland, or the UK.

 

[Jaskalas]

A goal of the terrorists is to ensure that they are the face of Islam. That peaceful cohabiting Muslims become marginalized and discounted. That there remains a rift filled with violence between Muslims and non Muslims.

The "war on terror" was !@# backwards in two ways. First it focused on overseas, when the real fight is here on our soil. Second, it focused on military action instead of seeking out and supporting moderates.

Terrorism is an idea as much as an action. Victory cannot be achieved through strength of arms. Our military strength, while necessary, must be matched by strength of heart. Only by reaching out and working together can moderates overtake the terrorists. If we fail to take such action then Islamic terrorism will win the day, and the cost in lives will keep climbing.

So when you point to a Muslim population, in any country, make damn sure you are not harming those who would help us. They're out there, even if we have been ignorant and ignoring them.

 

[AViking]

"Three of them were from the United States and one each was from Canada, Finland and the United Kingdom"

So out of 9 people most of them did not come from the US. And in fact if you take into account the relative populations it was more likely for a gunmen to originate from Canada, Finland, or the UK.

Yeah except that as Americans we don't want a single one being American and three is a pretty big number in our eyes. Three Americans leaving the country to go kill people in Kenya? Really? That's nuts.

This really isn't about American nationalism though. It's about curbing fundamentalism and better law enforcement. It was the same thing with the Boston attack.

 

[Murloc]

Oh yeah, unintegrated somali immigrants who live in a parallel subsociety really represent Finland or the UK.

Meanwhile a certain country supports with money islamization and their fundamentalist flavour of Islam, so it's more difficult to see where the responsibility of the state ends and you can begin to talk about purely individual choices of people going against the grain.

There's an abyss of difference imho.

 

[SaurusX]

They were as American as Vladimir Putin.

 

[AViking]

Oh yeah, unintegrated somali immigrants who live in a parallel subsociety really represent Finland or the UK.

Meanwhile a certain country supports with money islamization and their fundamentalist flavour of Islam, so it's more difficult to see where the responsibility of the state ends and you can begin to talk about purely individual choices of people going against the grain.

There's an abyss of difference imho.

I think that's a very astute observation and yes is a very clear difference.

 

[Geosurface]

Not everyone living within the borders of the United States of America, even legally, is an American in any meaningful way.

Were the highjackers from Saudi Arabia legitimate products of the culture of Saudi Arabia? Were they recognizably Saudi Arabian in their culture, values, and mindset?

If I move to China and live an isolated life with my family where we only speak English, watch movies and TV we've brought over from America, and we actively hate the Chinese nation and culture which surround us... and deliberately attempt to keep ourselves aloof and separate from it, and then either I or one of my children raised in that way does something bad elsewhere in the world, what idiot would believe it was legitimate to lay that at the feet of China?

Btw I didn't necessarily think any nation needed to be attacked as a result of 9/11. It was a horrific action undertaken, seemingly, by a group of individuals. Attacking a nation doesn't make a lot of sense in light of that.

If I had been in charge I suppose I would have advocated a lot of pinpoint strikes on terrorist compounds in any and all nations they could be found in, and special forces assassinations of leadership targets living among the general populace.

 

[moonbogg]

Living between the pacific and atlantic has nothing to do with a violent person being violent. Any thinking to the contrary is superstitious.

 

[Doppel]

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...eens-Minnesota-involved-Nairobi-massacre.html

Up to three American TEENAGERS were involved in mall massacre: Kenyan foreign minister says men aged 18-19 from Minnesota were among the gunmen

Still early days though and further to Geo I am sure these weren't well adjusted teens who spent their childhood playing video games, football, listening to Fallout Boy, and and sneaking off to get drunk.

 

[Don Vito Corleone]

The "Americans" were Somali-Americans who were likely born in Somalia, and acting in furtherance of a Somali terrorist agenda that has nothing to do with the United States. Even if they were born in the US, the Somali community here is incredibly insular and self-contained. From what I've read, something like 95% of the Somali girls born here still undergo genital mutilation, which is illustrative of the way the Somali community still largely keeps to itself and seems to feel governed by Islam tenets at least as much as the laws of Minnesota. There are a number of radical mosques here that have been successful recruiting grounds for Al Shabaab.

 

[rudder]

So the three Americanism were of Somali or Arab background... A little early for opinion pieces regarding the details of this terrorist attack. You seem to want to sensationalize this as if these people were 4th generation Americans that decided to join some Islamic fundamentalist group.

 

[AViking]

I'm merely bringing up something that I think is worth thinking about. How about something a bit further removed from Islam?

What if they were 2nd generation Americans from Mexico? They lived their insular lives in the Spanish speaking parts of Los Angeles and didn't speak English? There are millions like this. Millions of Americans who have not really integrated into our society but are Americans nonetheless and parts of our society. Would we discount them too as "not American"?

I totally agree that I'm not going to sit here and lose sleep over someone who isn't integrated into our society doing something stupid under our passport but the idea of someone being "American" is broad. I'm a 4th generation American living overseas. If I have my kids here and they don't move to America until they are in their 20's are they not "American"?

 

[Pray To Jesus]

I remember after 911 how there was quite an outcry against Saudi Arabia since most of the Hijackers came from there (15 of the 19).

Today we're on day 3 of an attack in Kenya that has left 69 dead and almost 200 injured and we are learning that those responsible are from western countries.

It's very easy to discount that previous logic that we used a dozen years ago now.

OP a special kind of stupid

 

[Broheim]

unintegrated somali immigrants who live in a parallel subsociety

is there any other kind?


Somalis are by far the worst integrated people in western Europe.

 

[woolfe9998]

Btw I didn't necessarily think any nation needed to be attacked as a result of 9/11. It was a horrific action undertaken, seemingly, by a group of individuals. Attacking a nation doesn't make a lot of sense in light of that.

If I had been in charge I suppose I would have advocated a lot of pinpoint strikes on terrorist compounds in any and all nations they could be found in, and special forces assassinations of leadership targets living among the general populace.

I think you're forgetting that the Afghan government directly supported AQ. That government needed to be deposed. Our long term occupation was a mistake, but we did need to get rid of their government.

 

[peonyu]

I think you're forgetting that the Afghan government directly supported AQ. That government needed to be deposed. Our long term occupation was a mistake, but we did need to get rid of their government.

True, Iraq is where the government jumped the shark. I dont think anyone legitimately shed a tear over the Taliban being deposed in Afghanistan [the Saudis, maybe].

 

[Jaskalas]

True, Iraq is where the government jumped the shark. I dont think anyone legitimately shed a tear over the Taliban being deposed in Afghanistan [the Saudis, maybe].

Of Afghanistan, we should shed tears for the troops we've left there to die for so long.

 

[OutHouse]

Three of them were from the United States

looks like this was a lie.

 

[DucatiMonster696]

Maybe, just maybe in the US we need to start expecting and putting fourth prerequisites for immigrants to assimilate into US culture and US society instead of creating excuses to allow them or force them to isolate themselves into their own little enclaves. The same can be said to be needed for European countries and Canada.

- E pluribus unum

 

[Zaap]

Yeah except that as Americans we don't want a single one being American and three is a pretty big number in our eyes. Three Americans leaving the country to go kill people in Kenya? Really? That's nuts.

Doesn't really surprise people though. The US is big and diverse enough that you kind of expect us to have our share of loons. And for some reason, we have a habit of some loony citizens among us fostering the very things that we used to fight against. (Neo-nazis, make-believe communists, etc.) so why not Islamofacists?

Likewise, Canada isn't surprising, and the UK sure as hell isn't.


Meanwhile what does shock me is the one guy from Finland. I mean... Finland??

 

[AViking]

Immigration in Scandinavia hasn't been the most successful with the Somali community. I have friends from Iran, Egypt, etc but Somalia? You never see these people.

 

[AViking]

looks like this was a lie.

Where do you see that? Last I heard the FBI was in Kenya helping investigate.