Americans and education?

[steppinthrax]

I'm an american born citizen. Most of my freinds are from the asian counteries. I have a Masters in Computer Science as well. I don't understand why American's don't seem to put education first. Foreigners are mostly the one's who make a deal of education. I was just curious on any thoughts on this...... There seems to be a large disparity in the US with education.....

 

[Moonbeam]

What Americans call education is insanity. It's all about winning and losing, competition and grades, tests and all forms of crap that have nothing to do with the fact that education is the love of learning. We are a deeply sick people and everything we tough we make sick. Our education produces nothing but fear. It freezes the human spirit and removes the self from learning so that nothing at all has any relevance.

This issue was even addressed last night by PBS on a program called Humankind.

 

[dullard]

Americans are the society of fast food, instant gratification, and a 3 minute attention span. When they are faced with the option of $25,000/year NOW or (-$10,000)/year now and $40,000/year after five years of hard work, they often choose the instant gratification of $25,000/year.

Why would you expect any other result?

 

[steppinthrax]

I didn't see humankind I should of. Well this is one interesting thing. If you are walking abound with a B.S. degree most people consider you educated. In Inda for example everyone is walking around with a B.S. it is kind of considered notthing. There is a very large disparity between the B.S. degree and High school almost 3 tiers of difference in class wise.

 

[steppinthrax]

Originally posted by: dullard
Americans are the society of fast food, instant gratification, and a 3 minute attention span. When they are faced with the option of $25,000/year NOW or -$10,000/year now $40,000/year after five years of hard work, they often choose the instant gratification of $25,000/year.

Why would you expect any other result?

Another thing Americans seem to justify spending 40K on a new car vs. 40K on getting a higher level of knowledge. They say education is expensive. When that 40K car will straight line depreciate to about 5K in a couple of years and that 40K edu with increase their salary to a point where it pays itself off within a year.

Many people who live in lower income areas (inner city) where education isn't prevelant as gangs and drugs can't understand spending as cheap as 60 to 80 a credit hour for Community college vs. $300 for a new pair of shoes

 

[compnovice]

The thing is that you can live a decent life even without college education which is not the case in many countries. So, many people don't choose to pursue degrees.

This IMO is a good thing. Not every one is cut out for higher education. Only the people who really want it pursue it and not due to peer or social pressure.

 

[Genx87]

Right now our country has a problem with success, through years of scorn from the left about evil capitalists our nation has decided success is a bad word and would rather make fun of people who further themselves with education.

And of course the people who do further themselves with education and become successful are then pegged as thiefs for making so much money while the people who made fun of them are working at McDonalds or Walmart because they didnt put the time in to be successful. Of course the people who didnt put the time in also feel it is their right to steal money out of the pockets of those who were successful, because obviously it is the successful person fault they didnt apply themselves and become more.

It makes for a bad situation that is only going to get worse as the Asian economies ramp up over the next 40-60 years and the United States loses its economic buying power and becomes a nation with high entitlement costs, lower educated workforces, and a stronger state ala the EU.

 

[dullard]

Originally posted by: Genx87
Right now our country has a problem with success, through years of scorn from the left about evil capitalists our nation has decided success is a bad word and would rather make fun of people who further themselves with education.

Nice job trying to put the blame on the left. Which side is it that keeps complaining that education isn't in the constitution and thus the federal government should cut education spending. Let me give you a hint. It isn't the left.

I have several degrees and I've never once had ANYONE make fun of me because of it. Not anyone on the left or the right. I've had many people make fun of me for other reasons though. Your whole premise isn't based on reality.

Even if it was the left's fault (which it isn't), do you really think the uninspired/underachieving McDonalds and Walmart employees pay attention to politics enough to base their life decisions on it?

 

[Genx87]

Originally posted by: dullard

Originally posted by: Genx87
Right now our country has a problem with success, through years of scorn from the left about evil capitalists our nation has decided success is a bad word and would rather make fun of people who further themselves with education.

Nice job trying to put the blame on the left. Which side is it that keeps complaining that education isn't in the constitution and thus the federal government should cut education spending. Let me give you a hint. It isn't the left.

It isnt soley about funding eduction, success has been labeled bad in this country and has been for some time. If you dont see the evidence of it in the real world, just look at who complains the most on this msgboard about the evil rich and all the success they have.

 

[dullard]

Originally posted by: Genx87
It isnt soley about funding eduction, success has been labeled bad in this country and has been for some time. If you dont see the evidence of it in the real world, just look at who complains the most on this msgboard about the evil rich and all the success they have.

I have several degrees and I've never once had ANYONE make fun of me because of it. Not anyone on the left or the right. I've had many people make fun of me for other reasons though. Your whole premise isn't based on reality.

And I think you are confusing "rich" with "educated". There are vocal leftist extremists on this board. They are after the rich, not after the educated. Think Bill Gates: rich but not educated. Not that I agree with those extremists; extremists on either side are not good examples to base your opinion on.

 

[Genx87]

Originally posted by: dullard

Originally posted by: Genx87
It isnt soley about funding eduction, success has been labeled bad in this country and has been for some time. If you dont see the evidence of it in the real world, just look at who complains the most on this msgboard about the evil rich and all the success they have.

I have several degrees and I've never once had ANYONE make fun of me because of it. Not anyone on the left or the right. I've had many people make fun of me for other reasons though. Your whole premise isn't based on reality.

And I think you are confusing "rich" with "educated".

Not at all, you dont have to be educated to be rich, however it does help. My issue is with the scorn and ridicule people who are successful recieve.

 

[dullard]

Originally posted by: Genx87
Not at all, you dont have to be educated to be rich, however it does help. My issue is with the scorn and ridicule people who are successful recieve.

Yes, some successful people receive scorn and ridicule by extremists. But, you are talking about the extremely wealthy, not the educated. Two different concepts. Again, not one person has ever scorned me for being educated. I don't think your comment is based on reality.

I see people graduating all the time and I only see congratulations. I don't see people behind the scenes scorning them for being the first in their family with a college degree.

Now, I do believe in a wealth tax. However, that doesn't mean I scorn the wealthy. No, in fact, just the opposite. I want people to get educated, I want to help people get great jobs, I want people to get wealthy. That way, we are all better off. Then tax the wealth and drop the horrible income tax system that we have. It is our income tax system that is what hurts success, whereas a wealth tax would have less harm (it would be the lesser of two evils). Not that I believe that will ever happen in my lifetime though.

 

[BaliBabyDoc]

There's no friggin' stigma for success and it hasn't been labeled bad . . . that's just fruity nonsense.

The primary problem in America is that it's an aspirational consumption society. Further, education is valued to the extent it can be used to get things as opposed to being considered an end unto itself.

As others have noted, we also have a horrible problem with delayed gratification.


Bill Gates . . . scorned b/c of Microsoft business practices and some horribly bloated (often crappy) software. But he earned his money and is definitely making a concerted effort to make the world a better place. Technically, a college drop-out.

Warren Buffett, BA, MBA . . . anybody that knows anything admires the hell out of the Oracle of Omaha. About the only people that scorn him are social conservatives. But he earned his money (starting at age 11) and is definitely making a concerted effort to make the world a better place.

Almost anybody alive named Hilton . . . yep, scorn. But the old man himself was a self-made winner with a constitution to match . . . "There is a natural law that obliges you and me to relieve the suffering, the distressed and the destitute." Conrad N. Hilton: Last Will and Testament.

Current or former professional sports league owners/executives that use political connections and taxpayer money to enrich themselves . . . yep, scorn.

 

[steppinthrax]

Originally posted by: Genx87
Right now our country has a problem with success, through years of scorn from the left about evil capitalists our nation has decided success is a bad word and would rather make fun of people who further themselves with education.

And of course the people who do further themselves with education and become successful are then pegged as thiefs for making so much money while the people who made fun of them are working at McDonalds or Walmart because they didnt put the time in to be successful. Of course the people who didnt put the time in also feel it is their right to steal money out of the pockets of those who were successful, because obviously it is the successful person fault they didnt apply themselves and become more.

It makes for a bad situation that is only going to get worse as the Asian economies ramp up over the next 40-60 years and the United States loses its economic buying power and becomes a nation with high entitlement costs, lower educated workforces, and a stronger state ala the EU.

I don't really understand what you were trying to say initially regrding lefts and education. I think if you do statistical background on lefts adn rights on who is more educated I think it would be pretty distrubuted. As far as evil capitalist goes that is a whole different issue. Education != Evil Capitalist.

As far as educated people being made fun of. Yes.... I have experienced it myself but I can sum it up with one word JEALOUSY they know they could of done the same by simply staying in school or sticking to the books. But you have something they don't have your life going for you and they will pretty much stay in the same area unless they make a large life change.

 

[Moonbeam]

Originally posted by: BaliBabyDoc
There's no friggin' stigma for success and it hasn't been labeled bad . . . that's just fruity nonsense.

The primary problem in America is that it's an aspirational consumption society. Further, education is valued to the extent it can be used to get things as opposed to being considered an end unto itself.

As others have noted, we also have a horrible problem with delayed gratification.

We have a horrible problem with delayed gratification because we have made the educational process as unnecessarily sick as we can. Every child is born with a love of learn that is soon driven out of him. Real education would be gratification itself. Education is about creating winners who win because others lose.

 

[TravisT]

I don't think there is a lack of interest in education in America. Many foreigners come here for their education. I think some Asian countries put to much emphasis on their children's educations. Suicide rates are higher there some believe that to be the stress of their education system.

Honestly, I have yet to hear someone say "Screw college... thats for dumb people". Most people who didn't attend college want to eventually or wish they would have and those that are coming out of colleges seem to be getting a good education for the most part.

 

[steppinthrax]

Originally posted by: TravisT
I don't think there is a lack of interest in education in America. Many foreigners come here for their education. I think some Asian countries put to much emphasis on their children's educations. Suicide rates are higher there some believe that to be the stress of their education system.

Honestly, I have yet to hear someone say "Screw college... thats for dumb people". Most people who didn't attend college want to eventually or wish they would have and those that are coming out of colleges seem to be getting a good education for the most part.

See I have to argue you on this point here. If you have at least a B.S. degree in the United States you are that 25% of the US population that has completed a B.S degree meaning the other 75% or so has below that. If that interest was soooooo high those numbers wouldn't be that low. Also it is so easy to obtain information on obtaining degrees and certs and such in the United States. There is a degree of fairness when trying to apply for a program vs. any other country. Even to the point where the balance is purposlly tipped (affirmative action) to let those in who woudn't get in. If you can't afford it at all there are financial AID programs that will cover most if not all of your education expenses. If you don't qualify for that there are grants you can search for and write for to obtain funding. These grants are specilized for that type of person like "single African American mothers", "single fathers", "majoring in accounting" etc..... Which are not based on grades/trascripts etc..... If it is that bad that you can't even get a grant or what not you can work for an employer that will pay tution. Any State of X (Where X is that State in the United States) employer has full tuition reimbursement programs. Meaning you could work as a PBX operator, security guard, anything get paid and do night classes. Not the mention the fact that if you obtain a degree in the US it is compatable everywhere in the world whereas in other counteries that may not be the case. SO WE REALLY HAVE IT EASY THAT IS ALL I HAVE TO SAY. Now it really boils down to one simple simple fact LAZYNESS. Everything is done for you and prepared to make it easy and all you have to do is push the button but you don't want to.....

Those who say screw college exist they are everywhere just go to Home Depot or any retail store that pays $6.50 an hour to do work that my 1.5 yo daughter can comprehend.

The Suicide Rates v.s. the Ratio of pop is negligible. In any aspect is just defends the position of how much we don't care.

 

[Termagant]

Some leftists despise economic success. But if there is any group that tends to despise education, I would say it is right wingers. "The more degrees you have, the more worthless you are" is something I've heard on a few occasions.

The reasoning is probably a combination of disdain for "liberal pointy headed anti-war academics," jealousy, and maybe the whole scientific method vs. creationism thing.

 

[steppinthrax]

Originally posted by: Termagant
Some leftists despise economic success. But if there is any group that tends to despise education, I would say it is right wingers. "The more degrees you have, the more worthless you are" is something I've heard on a few occasions.

The reasoning is probably a combination of disdain for "liberal pointy headed anti-war academics," jealousy, and maybe the whole scientific method vs. creationism thing.

That is true but I didn't want to say. Rights tend to be a little more religious and a little more uneducated. They don't tend to well with education because you are gaining more knowledge about how the world really works and kind of leave bible thumping afterwards. This is why you see very little religous scientist anyway. And yes science and education teaches you to think "properly" not in the view of a bible that can't really be verfied for the paper it's printed on.

 

[brandonbull]

Then why is the US one tof the top countries in GDP spending for education? Why does the US have 23 out of the 25 top universities in the world? I've spoken to several coworkers from other countries and the difference is that the US allows students a choice in their higher education process.

 

[Moonbeam]

Your purpose is to buy not to understand that the meaning of life has nothing to do with things. You will play the roll of a cog in the economic machine that creates money to substitute for self worth and meaning. He who has the most dollars is the most valuable. When you die you'll discover you never lived or knew any real love.

The angel of death came for a miser who had amassed a great fortune. He said to the angel please come for me later and I will give you my fortune but the angel declined. Then give me just a moment to leave a note. The angel agreed. The miser wrote, for 800,000 pieces of gold I could not buy a single day. Know, man, the value of your time.

 

[BaliBabyDoc]

Median family income is $65k for a family of four.

Boston Globe

The biennial study by the National Center for Public Policy and Higher Education evaluates how well higher education is serving the public -- and leaves little doubt where the system is failing. Forty-three states received F's for affordability, up from 36 two years ago. The others got D's, except Utah and California, both of which eked out C's.
---
In Ohio, public four-year colleges cost 42 percent of the average family's paycheck, up from 28 percent in the early 1990s. In New Jersey, costs have risen from 24 percent to 37 percent, and in Oregon from 25 percent to 36 percent.

I have the benefit of living in an exceptional state when it comes to affordable higher education (North Carolina) . . . we sux at football, though.

Financial aid has not kept pace with education inflation. Plus there's the US News & World Report effect.

Colleges' own funds, which make up the largest portion of financial aid, are increasingly being used to lure high-achieving students who boost a school's reputation -- but who don't need help to go to college.

``There's been a sea change in the last decade and a half over how [colleges] spend their money," said Patrick Callan, National Center president. ``It used to be about giving students opportunities they wouldn't otherwise have. Now it's about giving them money to go to one college instead of another."

IMHO, it's quite an achievement that 25% of the population has a 4-year degree. But we desperately need reforms from top to bottom . . . starting with K-12.

 

[piasabird]

I have tried to get better schooling, but I cant find a way to pay for it right now. I can barely break even and make house payments. I have an associates degree, but I ran out of funds when I was going for my Bachelor's Degree. So I put it on hold.

I do not care for people who sit around and criticize the Amercan Education System. I dont care to fall into this pity party attitude. If you listen to all of these people who keep saying America is Bad and you can not succeed, then you probably will not succeed.

I have seen some serious problems in the American system of education. I see all of the education money going to the top 5-10 % of the achievers in our system for academic achievement. Everyone else is just left behind unless your parents are made of money. I guess that is what we are all stuck with. You either go into debt big time to go to school or you dont make much money.

I am fairly happy with what I do for a living, and that is probably all most people can expect.

 

[dullard]

Originally posted by: piasabird
You either go into debt big time to go to school or you dont make much money.

Or secret option #3, you choose an inexpensive school.

You are correct that it is far easier for the rich to stay rich. The rich make the rules, what else would you expect? But you don't need a house. You could find a way. However, the costs may outweigh the benefits in your case.

 

[steppinthrax]

Originally posted by: brandonbull
Then why is the US one tof the top countries in GDP spending for education? Why does the US have 23 out of the 25 top universities in the world? I've spoken to several coworkers from other countries and the difference is that the US allows students a choice in their higher education process.

Those schools that you are talking about have some of the lowest acceptance rates. Look up MIT, Harvard, Johns Hopkins on Wiki. Some of their acceptance rates are less then 10%. One thing in the United States you are right for. If you are very very very smart you have the best picks. But far from few are that way. I didn't go to a ivy league for one. Most of those people that leave those schools are more or less guanranteed to succed in life. But this goes back to the fact that money and time is spent mainly on those who are doing well rather then those who are struggeling. Almost like we don't want to even try or give a ****** for you if you have problems.