American killed fighting for IDF

[norseamd]

http://talk.collegeconfidential.com...-israeli-dual-citizenship-serving-in-idf.html

 

[Caravaggio]

As an American you cannot go to Israel and join the IDF!
You must be Jewish and have dual citizenship in order to join the IDF!..

Then it follows that a Jewish American has an automatic right to fight for two countries simultaneously. Since any Jew anywhere in the world, can become an 'Israeli', according to the Israeli 'Law of Return'?

Do please correct me if I am wrong?

That means we have to ask ourselves about the priorities of those with dual citizenship?

Is this guy fighting with me or Benjamin Netanyahu.

But wait a minute, I thought Judaism was a religion? No?
Really, is it now a nationality too, how strange. How will I know your first loyalty?

 

[smackababy]

Yes, I am. The Taliban didn't HAVE planning to carry out an attack on the US, much less planning that this kid would have known about. They were happy to run Afghanistan as a fundamentalist Islamic state, they had no idea about attacking the US. The US attack was the idea of Osama bin Laden, with his organization Al Queda. The Taliban did give Al Queda a 'safe base', but had no interest I see in an attack on the US.

He participated in at least two known terrorist training camps. He didn't join u pto bake cookies. He knew quite well he wasn't going to live peacefully at some hippy Muslim convent.

 

[uclaLabrat]

http://www.slate.com/articles/news_...onvinces_american_jews_to_embrace_israel.html

so this American kid gets killed in Gaza fighting for the IDF. Since when did we allow American citizens to join foreign armies to fight foreign wars?

A lot of hoopla was made about the Florida Palestinian teen who got his ass handed to him by the IDF. People were upset that he, as an American, was over in Gaza throwing stones. But this guy decides to go full on war and is given a hero's burial? Talk about hypocrisy.

If India was to to war with Africa, will I, as an American Indian be able to join the Indian army? Can I join the African army because I symphathize with their cause? Where do we draw the line?

My best friend is a naturalized citizen (South Africa, joined up without a green card) and a Captain in the US Army, where's the problem?

 

[Craig234]

He participated in at least two known terrorist training camps. He didn't join u pto bake cookies. He knew quite well he wasn't going to live peacefully at some hippy Muslim convent.

Yet the things he participated in had no hostilities at the time or planned (especially as far as he knew) with the US. They didn't like the US but that's a far cry from at war with.

 

[her209]

My best friend is a naturalized citizen (South Africa, joined up without a green card) and a Captain in the US Army, where's the problem?

He became a naturalized citizen of South Africa when he was already a US citizen?

 

[JEDIYoda]

How will I know your first loyalty?

That is entirely your problem! Since you are not the United states Government you do not need to know......hahaaaaa

 

[Caravaggio]

That is entirely your problem! Since you are not the United states Government you do not need to know......hahaaaaa

You are not the United States Government either, are You?
The difference between us is that you fund it and I don't.

Are you happy to fund AIPAC's latest military projects in the Middle East? If AIPAC runs your government, should it not submit itself to national election, instead of sneaking in the back door of the White House?
Fine, doesn't cost me a dime. But if my government was pouring the biggest part of its foreign-aid budget into a tiny nation that spied on my homeland, then you could bet your life I would be doing something to stop it, given that funding hostile states is explicitly forbidden by your constitution.

Good see see that you have sobered-up and can express yourself without profanity. Slightly saddened to see that you continue to evade my questions and cannot address the issue of the implicit divided loyalties of those with dual nationality, fighting for foreign governments.

Remind me, is Jonathan Pollard an American?
Then why did he spy for Israel?

 

[smackababy]

Yet the things he participated in had no hostilities at the time or planned (especially as far as he knew) with the US. They didn't like the US but that's a far cry from at war with.

So, it is okay for him to join the Taliban, receive guerrilla training, and carry out acts of terrorism against other nations, because he was naive enough to believe a group that had previously attacked the US was not going to do it again? 9/11 wasn't the first time an Al-Qaeda trained group attacked the US.

 

[uclaLabrat]

He became a naturalized citizen of South Africa when he was already a US citizen?

Born in SA, came over when he was 12, joined the army at 19, was serving active duty and didn't even have a green card yet. Now he's a citizen and a captain in the reserve.

 

[JEDIYoda]

You are not the United States Government either, are You?
The difference between us is that you fund it and I don't. <-- since you don`t fund it your opinion is meaningless...

Are you happy to fund AIPAC's latest military projects in the Middle East? If AIPAC runs your government, should it not submit itself to national election, instead of sneaking in the back door of the White House?<-- wow, you are way over the deep end.....hate Jews much??

Fine, doesn't cost me a dime. But if my government was pouring the biggest part of its foreign-aid budget into a tiny nation that spied on my homeland, then you could bet your life I would be doing something to stop it, given that funding hostile states is explicitly forbidden by your constitution.<-- again you have real issues with the truth......all governments spy on each other even allies....or did you not know that?

Good see see that you have sobered-up and can express yourself without profanity.<-- the only profanity I am using is questioning your intellect!!another meaningless talking point of yours?

Slightly saddened to see that you continue to evade my questions and cannot address the issue of the implicit divided loyalties of those with dual nationality, fighting for foreign governments. <--- When I served in the IDF my loyalty was to Israel! When I worked and still do at times for the US Government my loyalty is to the United States. Yet being an Jew - I have dual citizenship and my allegiance is to both the United States and Israel!!I have no issues supporting Israel and I have no issues with the United States! If the United states is not concerned with the loyalties of all US Citizens that have dual citizenship, what makes your concerns even worth addressing??

Remind me, is Jonathan Pollard an American?<-- should I care....some people are misguided and that's just life..one individual out of how many?

Then why did he spy for Israel? <-- why should I care....why do people spy for the US or Russia or Germany??

 

[justoh]

When you naturalize in the US you have to make some token statement about not fighting for another country (and holding any allegiance, whatever that means), but it's not like they make you formally renounce your previous citizenships, and your previous country or countries will have no knowledge of your us citizenship or pledge, so you can simply return and enlist if you wanted to. Maybe the immigration authorities could later strip you of your US citizenship if they find out (wouldn't be the case if citizen through birth).

 

[smackababy]

When you naturalize in the US you have to make some token statement about not fighting for another country (and holding any allegiance, whatever that means), but it's not like they make you formally renounce your previous citizenships, and your previous country or countries will have no knowledge of your us citizenship or pledge, so you can simply return and enlist if you wanted to. Maybe the immigration authorities could later strip you of your US citizenship if they find out (wouldn't be the case if citizen through birth).

I believe the law states if you actively apply for nationality in another country, you lose your US nationality. If you get it by 'chance' (marriage or something), you retain your US nationality.

 

[cabri]

I believe the law states if you actively apply for nationality in another country, you lose your US nationality. If you get it by 'chance' (marriage or something), you retain your US nationality.

The US requires that you surrender your original citizenship if becoming a US naturalized citizen.

As to an US Citizen becoming a dual citizen

In 1990, the U.S. State Department adopted new regulations which presume that an individual does not intend to give up citizenship when performing one of the above potentially expatriating acts.[42] If asked, the individual can always answer that they did not intend to give it up; this is sufficient to retain their citizenship.[43] Hence, the U.S. [effectively allows citizens to acquire new citizenships while remaining a U.S. citizen, becoming a dual citizen.

Wiki Link

 

[justoh]

The US requires that you surrender your original citizenship if becoming a US naturalized citizen.

Does not.

 

[smackababy]

The US requires that you surrender your original citizenship if becoming a US naturalized citizen.

Got a link? Because I couldn't find any that specifically states that.

As to an US Citizen becoming a dual citizen

Wiki Link

That is exactly what I said. They have to actively attempt to gain citizenship of another country (generally through applying) to lose US citizenship.

 

[Craig234]

So, it is okay for him to join the Taliban, receive guerrilla training, and carry out acts of terrorism against other nations, because he was naive enough to believe a group that had previously attacked the US was not going to do it again? 9/11 wasn't the first time an Al-Qaeda trained group attacked the US.

When had the Taliban attacked the US? And how far back does that go? Japan has attacked us. Britain has attacked us. The Taliban was not Al-Queda. As I noted, the US government had even given the $50 million in assistance in the year before 9/11 - and we did not say the Taliban was behind 9/11, we just demanded they turn Al Queda leadership over.

The bottom line is, Lindh had committed no act of violence against the US.

Which is more than I can say for the yahoos who aimed their sniper rifles at US officers out at that ranch enforcing the law against a rancher who owed the government money.

What if a Muslim group had owed the government money for decades, refused to pay saying they don't recognize the US government, and gathered hundreds for an armed standoff?

 

[Remobz]

I believe the law states if you actively apply for nationality in another country, you lose your US nationality. If you get it by 'chance' (marriage or something), you retain your US nationality.

My brother-in-law (American) married my sister (not American at the time) and he got dual Citizenships through marriage. I can confirm that this is correct here.

 

[LegendKiller]

That would explain why Jonathan Pollard was given life for spying for Israel, then?

It is certainly true that the USA is wildly keen on Israel. AIPAC have cleverly persuaded Congress to fund a good slab of the IDF budget.
But if this relationship is so mutual and cozy, why would Israel need to spy on its big goy friend?
Where does Pollard wish to live on his release.....?

Because that's how the world works. We spy on the Brits, they spy on us. We spy on the Frenchies, they spy on us. We spy on the Germans, they spy on us.

 

[LegendKiller]

http://www.slate.com/articles/news_...onvinces_american_jews_to_embrace_israel.html

so this American kid gets killed in Gaza fighting for the IDF. Since when did we allow American citizens to join foreign armies to fight foreign wars?

A lot of hoopla was made about the Florida Palestinian teen who got his ass handed to him by the IDF. People were upset that he, as an American, was over in Gaza throwing stones. But this guy decides to go full on war and is given a hero's burial? Talk about hypocrisy.

If India was to to war with Africa, will I, as an American Indian be able to join the Indian army? Can I join the African army because I symphathize with their cause? Where do we draw the line?

One is a terrorist, the other isn't. Stop being a Jew hater.

This is the Discussion Club, not P&N. Please, no personal attacks. -Admin DrPizza

 

[DrPizza]

Got a link? Because I couldn't find any that specifically states that.




That is exactly what I said. They have to actively attempt to gain citizenship of another country (generally through applying) to lose US citizenship.

A friend of mine gained dual citizenship with Canada. It's not that difficult & seems to be relatively common.

 

[Craig234]

He participated in at least two known terrorist training camps. He didn't join u pto bake cookies. He knew quite well he wasn't going to live peacefully at some hippy Muslim convent.

Yes, the point of the discussion being Americans who join *a* foreign military, versus joining one that is at war with the US.

 

[smackababy]

A friend of mine gained dual citizenship with Canada. It's not that difficult & seems to be relatively common.

I am not saying you can't obtain it, just that US law states that you can't actively apply for it. If I were to apply for citizenship in say Canada and got accepted, per law, I would no longer be a US national (although, I am not sure if this is true for US born citizens or just ones that become citizens). At least, I could be stripped of my US national status, if the government finds out about it and decides to do that. If, instead, I were to marry a Canadian (why would I ever do that >_< ) and that causes Canada to grant my citizenship, I would retain my status as a US national, as I didn't actively apply for it.

 

[Caravaggio]

In 36 you say that you are " loyal to Israel when serving with the IDF but loyal to the US when in the US"

But the inevitable question arises, to whom are you loyal when the interests of the two states are at odds?

Do you have the Rosenberg type of 'loyalty' or the Jonathan Pollard type of loyalty?

Pollard failed his CIA lie-detector test but the US Navy gave him a job anyhow. Twits or what!

You say that you don't understand Pollard's motives. If you look at the Wiki article on Pollard, all will become clear. He was given a $10k 'hello ' from his Israeli handler Rafi Eitan, and an IDF salary of $2,500 per month. This, on top of his US salary would be a "nice little earner", no doubt.

Pollard was caught with 30 kilos of classified documents taken from US files which should not have left the building in which he worked.

He was open to all offers and had made contact with three Pakistanis and an Iranian.

So, given that you admit to serving two masters, perhaps you can tell us where your primary loyalty lies?