America must be isolated and constrained

[HardWarrior]

Something for you Bush and Kerry supporters to consider.

 

[sandorski]

Interesting article.

 

[HardWarrior]

Originally posted by: sandorski
Interesting article.

Thank you for reading it.

 

[maluckey]

Interesting read, though I don't wholly agree with all points. I do agree that there must be a check and balance system to prevent the U.S. from being the unchallenged overdog. Be the dominant county is beneficial, being the overdog invites derision, eny, and hate, none of these easy to overcome on the international scene.

 

[NonSequiter]

Interesting read, though I don't wholly agree with all points. I do agree that there must be a check and balance system to prevent the U.S. from being the unchallenged overdog. Be the dominant county is beneficial, being the overdog invites derision, eny, and hate, none of these easy to overcome on the international scene.

Interesting? Hardly. Just more trite whining about how the U.S. is "destroying the alliance system." Not a damn peep about how little about how most of those same "allies" bring to the table, either militarily, financially, politically, or intellectually. It didn't do anyone a damn bit of good that France and Germany objected to invading Iraq, as they offered no reasonable alternatives. A simple continuation of the inspections regime and the fraudulent oil-for-food program. Wow, that's some solution Mr. Chirac

Likewise, we're supposed to take the UN seriously when it can't even get out of it's own damn way? Give more deference to an organization where the norm is to stand around with their thumb up their ass when genocide is taking place? (e.g. pick almost any country in Africa over the last decade)

 

[HardWarrior]

Originally posted by: Q36ExplosiveSpaceModulator

Interesting read, though I don't wholly agree with all points. I do agree that there must be a check and balance system to prevent the U.S. from being the unchallenged overdog. Be the dominant county is beneficial, being the overdog invites derision, eny, and hate, none of these easy to overcome on the international scene.

Interesting? Hardly. Just more trite whining about how the U.S. is "destroying the alliance system." Not a damn peep about how little about how most of those same "allies" bring to the table, either militarily, financially, politically, or intellectually. It didn't do anyone a damn bit of good that France and Germany objected to invading Iraq, as they offered no reasonable alternatives. A simple continuation of the inspections regime and the fraudulent oil-for-food program. Wow, that's some solution Mr. Chirac

Likewise, we're supposed to take the UN seriously when it can't even get out of it's own damn way? Give more deference to an organization where the norm is to stand around with their thumb up their ass when genocide is taking place? (e.g. pick almost any country in Africa over the last decade)

Well, I hope you're prepared to be just as arrogant when someone else finds a way to kill a few more Americans. And since when does the rest of the world qualify as dumb and poor? We DON'T have a monopoly on inteligence or money on this planet. That should be evident even to people like you. We spend tons of money on hardware to fight enemies that don't even exist, more than several other nations combined, while Japan and China kick our ASSES in the markets and jobs just keep flying away. Yeah, gee, I sure feel SAFE! Germany and France objected to an unwarranted attack on a sovereign nation that posed NO risk to us OR it's neighbors? Wow, how utterly STUPID of them! I've got a flash for you knee-jerk, we COULD have simply left Iraq ALONE.

 

[NonSequiter]

Well, I hope you're prepared to be just as arrogant when someone else finds a way to kill a few more Americans. And since when does the rest of the world qualify as dumb and poor? We DON'T have a monopoly on inteligence or money on this planet. That should be evident even to people like you. We spend tons of money on hardware to fight enemies that don't even exist, more than several other nations combined, while Japan and China kick our ASSES in the markets and jobs just keep flying away. Yeah, gee, I sure feel SAFE! Germany and France objected to an unwarranted attack on a sovereign nation that posed NO risk to us OR it's neighbors? Wow, how utterly STUPID of them! I've got a flash for you knee-jerk, we COULD have simply left Iraq ALONE.

Hit a nerve, did I? Well, let's take your rant one by one.

Well, I hope you're prepared to be just as arrogant when someone else finds a way to kill a few more Americans.

Terrorists, nihilists, and other dead-enders will continue to attack Americans and anyone else who doesn't agree with their POV no matter what happens vis a vis the U.S. and its allies.

And since when does the rest of the world qualify as dumb and poor? We DON'T have a monopoly on inteligence or money on this planet. That should be evident even to people like you.

Your words, not mine.

We spend tons of money on hardware to fight enemies that don't even exist, more than several other nations combined, while Japan and China kick our ASSES in the markets and jobs just keep flying away. Yeah, gee, I sure feel SAFE!

First of all, the U.S. is the world's leading economy and has been for a century. Our wealth increased when we brought Japan into the fold, and it will increase again when we complete bringing China in. Jobs flying away? Maybe yours, and maybe those of a few unskilled factory workers, but not the vast majority of the rest of us. If you don't feel safe, that's your personal problem. I feel a lot safer with the U.S. military guarding me than i would if the French were doing it.

Germany and France objected to an unwarranted attack on a sovereign nation that posed NO risk to us OR it's neighbors? Wow, how utterly STUPID of them! I've got a flash for you knee-jerk, we COULD have simply left Iraq ALONE.

And we Americans, through our elected representatives, chose to NOT leave Iraq alone. I know democracy and the will of the people is hard for those elites like you who know better than the rest of us dumb masses, but you don't make the call. France and Germany got to voice their opinions, and so did you through the vote, and the President chose not to agree with you. Grow up and deal with it, and stop throwing a toddler's fit that you didn't get your way.

 

[Jhhnn]

In certain respects, the article has a great deal of validity. For other countries, the Bush policy offers very little, and is basically an attack on their legitimacy and right to be dealt with as equals in the world of diplomacy. Not terribly smart in the face of globalization and increasing interdependencies.

Had the weapons inspectors been allowed to continue, they would have come to the same conclusion that our own invading forces have reached- that Iraq had complied with the UN demand to divest themselves of WMD's. Having met those demands, the sanctions would have been dropped, and European business concerns would have been free to compete with American firms for Iraqi business, oil, whatever. The Neocons, of course, didn't want that, for a variety of reasons, none of which have anything to do with so-called iraqi freedom. We support repressive regimes throughout the region and the world in support of business and other interests. Invasion served their purposes in a variety of ways- bolstering Israel, demonstrating military might, crippling the treasury, maintaining a protective military presence for our Saudi friends w/o actually being in that country, making vast sums for their friends in the military supply business, and in the rebuilding contracts. I rather suspect it was intended as a domestic PR victory, although it hasn't worked out quite that way- Saddam's last act of revenge is that the invasion proved him innocent of the WMD/terrorist charges against him.

As for the usual rantings from q36esr, it's to be expected. Bush must be defended at all costs.

And Kerry should, at least, be a step in the right direction. How big a step is entirely another question.

While I'm forced to agree that it was our elected representatives who led us into the iraqi invasion, they were led with a pattern of deceit and fearmongering not in evidence since the McCarthy era. That effort is ongoing, and extends through the entire Bush agenda. John Kerry said it well-

"these guys are the most crooked, you know, lying group of people I've ever seen."

Much of the rest of the world has been aware of this for some time, and is acting accordingly. Time for the American People to do the same.

 

[HardWarrior]

Originally posted by: Q36ExplosiveSpaceModulator

Snip: (gag) You're silly. [/b]

Did I try to guage whether or not the author "hit a nerve" when you flew off into your jingostic, IGNORANT BS speech? Nope. Save that silly ass "you're getting emotional" CRAP for your wife, okay?

"Dead enders???" Can't you even think beyond what Rumsfeld tells you to think? Sorry dude, people don't get THAT pissed over stuff like jealousy and Britney Spears hawking T&A. They're pissed at us for concrete reasons. Things like supporting despoting "governments" like the Saudi's, Israel and even sh1theads like Hussein (prior to 1991). Oh, and there are those little things like killing thousands and THOUSANDS of Arabs, when we want too, for little or no reason.

Yup, and those words are self-evident, at least for those of us who don't think the sun rises and sets in the US's ass.

"First of all, the U.S. is the world's leading economy and has been for a century. Our wealth increased when we brought Japan into the fold, and it will increase again when we complete bringing China in. Jobs flying away?"

A century??? Did you forget about the Great Depression? The US economy didn't explode until after WW2, when the rest of the world had devastated. Brought Japan into the fold? Huh? Japan is a sovereign nation, a ruthless market competitor, and has the distinction of saving our ASSES after Black Tuesday. They ain't our "pet", dude. Bring China in? How old are you? China is kicking our asses in maufacturing, they happily absorb any military tech they can steal from us and have displayed ZERO interest in being another "pet" country. What are you doing, pulling this sh1t out of your nose??? Oh, and lets not forget the EU. They represent ALMOST as large an economy as ours, and without the HUGE military expenditures. If we don't get smart, they'll be stomping us in the global market TOO in the next 20-years. Yes Melanie, the jobs are flying away. First blue collar, now white collar. There just aren't enough service jobs to make up for them, bubblehead.

"Maybe yours, and maybe those of a few unskilled factory workers, but not the vast majority of the rest of us."

You stuck-up little prick. Unless you make more LOT more money than your IQ would indicate, I can BUY your ass. This country grew strong on the backs of those "unskilled workers" you're turning your prissy little nose up at. Not everyone has rich parents to send them off to Harvard, and that fact shouldn't condemn them to second class citizenship.

"If you don't feel safe, that's your personal problem."

No idiot, it's YOUR problem too. Unless, of course, you actually think that duct tape and plastic sheeting is going to save your sorry ass when the next "bad" thing happens. Look around you, everyone is mildly freaked. If you aren't, you're braindead.

"I feel a lot safer with the U.S. military guarding me than i would if the French were doing it."

QUICK, run outside and tell my how many troops you see standing at your door. What a clown you are!

Look, I'm sorry, I can't take anymore of your juvenile "view." Respond if you want, but I had hoped the article would stimulate some honest, intelligent debate, and your flag-waving crap just ain't it.

 

[FrodoB]

A powerful America is in the best interest of the freedom loving inhabitants of this planet. Most of the world has proven to be unwilling to deal with the evil forces that exist (cruel dictators, terrorism, etc.).

 

[sandorski]

Originally posted by: FrodoB
A powerful America is in the best interest of the freedom loving inhabitants of this planet. Most of the world has proven to be unwilling to deal with the evil forces that exist (cruel dictators, terrorism, etc.).

Powerful, sure, but a loose cannon is not.

 

[CanOWorms]

Originally posted by: FrodoB
A powerful America is in the best interest of the freedom loving inhabitants of this planet. Most of the world has proven to be unwilling to deal with the evil forces that exist (cruel dictators, terrorism, etc.).

I think having the US as the most powerful country is good since previous history has shown that other countries hold such power incredibly recklessly. Of course the US has done bad things, but they're petty in magnitude compared to the actions of previous superpowers.

 

[Dari]

There always has to be a dominant (super)power. YOu've seen it throughout history with the Roman Empire, the British Empire, ancient Egypt, and the household with the man at the fore-front.

Today, you have the same thing. In NATO, you have a Mormon-style relationship with the United States husband and 18 European wives. You have it in global trade, with the US having over 30% of international trade, albeit down from 50% 55 years ago. You also have it in military and diplomatic terms.

We are the Benevolent Empire, or so they say. The only checks and balance should come in the form of the number of friends and allies we have.

 

[NonSequiter]

As for the usual rantings from q36esr, it's to be expected. Bush must be defended at all costs.

My usual rantings? Check my post count. Also, i'm a Libertarian, and could give two sh!ts about defending Bush, not that Kerry is any better.

And Kerry should, at least, be a step in the right direction. How big a step is entirely another question.

And how pray tell would that be the case? I belive you may be woefully misinformed or so blinded by partisan blinkers that you don't see the there's no difference between the two. John Kerry doesn't give a crap about getting the rest of the world's permission either when it suits his political purposes. He's already said he would have sent troops into Haiti, and even without your allmighty international mother-may-I from the UN, France, Germany et al (link, or if you prefer, from Kerry's own website).

Had the weapons inspectors been allowed to continue, they would have come to the same conclusion that our own invading forces have reached- that Iraq had complied with the UN demand to divest themselves of WMD's. Having met those demands, the sanctions would have been dropped, and European business concerns would have been free to compete with American firms for Iraqi business, oil, whatever.

Yeah, i'm sure. Kofi Annan's UN inspection team and Inspector Clouseau (a.k.a. Hans Blix) was just all over that case in the TEN YEARS they had available to do inspections, but were evidently too busy taking kickbacks from the oil-for-food program. Your hindsight bias in believing this is really breathtaking.

While I'm forced to agree that it was our elected representatives who led us into the iraqi invasion, they were led with a pattern of deceit and fearmongering not in evidence since the McCarthy era. That effort is ongoing, and extends through the entire Bush agenda.

Your argument comes out on the short end, and instead of re-examining your own position and why the American people didn't accept your POV, blame them as ignorant cattle who didn't have the brains to decide for themselves. I guess that's an easier coping mechanism than having to face the facts as they are, that the American people heard your argument and did not and do not agree with it.

While I agree that invading Iraq may not have been the wisest course of action, i have yet to hear any viable alternative offered. Your blind faith assertion that the UN inspectors would have declared Iraq WMD-free is wishful thinking.

 

[HardWarrior]

Originally posted by: FrodoB
A powerful America is in the best interest of the freedom loving inhabitants of this planet. Most of the world has proven to be unwilling to deal with the evil forces that exist (cruel dictators, terrorism, etc.).

You're forgetting two aspects of reality that should be considered.

1. The federal government of the US is NOT empowered to protect the freedoms of any other nation or people. By attempting to do so it is acting unlawfully.

2. Every single time the fed sets out on another adventure of this type it NEVER succeeds, kills a LOT of people and generates more anger and hatred. We HAVE to learn to mind our own business, before it's too late.

We can live well and in relative safety without trying to rule the world. What we can't do is continue to believe that we can do as we want, right or wrong, and not have to pay a price for it. I would urge you to goggle up the writings of men like Michael Ledeen, Bill Kristol, Richard Perle and Paul Wolfowitz for some very troubling ideas about why the US has to behave like a whiny, irrational bully on the world stage.

If you have broadband and would like to hear it from the horses mouth, go to this link and scroll down to the Richard Perle interview and tell me what you think after listening to it. BTW, in Washington circles, this guys nickname is "The Prince of Darkness." My understanding is that he get it by believing that nuclear war with the soviets would be "so bad."

"Cruel dictators?" You ARE aware that the US installed Saddam Hussien and abetted some of his worst excesses? We've actually supported worse.

"Terrorism?" It's rather short-sighted to assume that people will take decades of abuse without getting REALLY pissed. If the fed wasn't so quick to screw people we wouldn't have a problem.

 

[daniel1113]

"He who does not learn from history is doomed to repeat it."

Isolationism is not going to cut it in this day and age. Sorry.