America (lack of empathy and signs of a crumbling society)

Oldgamer

Diamond Member
Jan 15, 2013
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I found a number of articles that bring up some valid points. Albeit I might not agree with everything, it does beg the question, are we so detached, disconnected, so un empathetic now that we are showing the tale tell signs of a country on the decline?

The United States of America is a nation that is showing signs of crumbling within . There so many signs of it . The word for it might be lack of empathy within our society . Yes, Empathy - supposedly a spontaneous reaction to the plight of our fellow humans -is now channeled through self-interested and bloated non-government organizations or multilateral outfits.

The vibrant world of private empathy has been replaced by faceless state largesse. Pity, mercy, the elation of giving are tax-deductible. It is a sorry sight . Here is an example The parent company of a Bakersfield senior living facility where a staff member refused to perform CPR , because of "company" policy .The staff member said it was against the facility's policy for her to perform CPR, according to a 911 tape released by the Bakersfield Fire Department. Initially, Glenwood Gardens said the staff member followed protocol. This woman calls herself a "NURSE"? Outraged!! Families put their loved ones in facilities to get care and support.

IN another STORY that caught my eye this week was the story of a Surrogate mother who refused to have an abortion , she was being reportedly offered 10,000 $. Crystal Kelley ran through the calendar once again in her head. It was August, and if she got pregnant soon, she could avoid carrying during the hot summer months -- she'd done that before and didn't want to do it again. There was no time to lose.When a Connecticut couple learned their surrogate mother was carrying a fetus with developmental disabilities, they offered her $10,000 to have an abortion, reported CNN. This is what happens when people play God. The first couple, not content with the three children they already had - perhaps because they weren't born perfect? - "desperately" wanted a fourth which the mother couldn't carry, and apparently, didn't even have an egg for. The surrogate wanted the money, not the baby, except when it became clear to her that the supposed real parents no longer wanted the baby. Only then did she develop an attachment, which lasted only until she found someone willing to take this fragile, special needs baby off her hands. She couldn't take care of her, not without a job or lot of financial support, not when she had two other mouths to feed. When push came to shove (pun intended), she did her research and fled to a state where she could instantly apply for medicaid to care for the child, where the state would allow her to make the decisions of where this baby should go. This wasn't a miracle of life, it was the miracle of modern science creating a malformed child destined to a short life of round the clock care. Isn’t it amazing that” Pro Choice ” people think it is okay so long as one makes only one of the choices?? Verce the baby was adopted out to a loving family who was willing to love a baby unconditionally.

Another aspect to this . Is how "detached" everything is in America . Our Nation has poverty , there are poor , and homeless that need help . Yet no one is helping them . Detachment is alarming when we perceive all is well , but it is not well . The Stock Market gains after 4 years at an alarming rate . It's so much fun to own stocks these days, with the Dow Industrials and Wilshire 5000 index setting one new high after another, and the Standard & Poor's 500 within 1% of doing the same. Watching the value of your portfolio rise is such a delightful indoor sport. All this happiness and moneymaking (if only on paper) are what make Saturday's anniversary so interesting and educational. What anniversary, you ask? Why, the fourth anniversary of the market bottom, reached by all three of the major indicators on Mar. 9, 2009. You remember those days, don't you? It was a hideous time, with people losing their jobs, house prices collapsing, the world financial system teetering on the brink, and the U.S. stock market, as measured by the Wilshire, down a sickening 57% -- or $11.2 trillion—from its high 17 months earlier.Stock prices are "propped up" by millions of buyers who want to own stocks at these prices. Those of you who see another market crash just around the corner should stay out of the market. Those of us who moved money off the sidelines into stocks four years ago are pleased with our choices.Who believes this garbage is sustainable. The ONLY reason stocks are this high is because of Bernanke and his printing press. If you think an 8 trillion increase in debt and devaluation of the dollar is worth it, have at it. The stock market is generally a poor proxy for the economy. Both, however, are characterized by extreme inequality, with large amounts of spending power concentrated at the extremes. "Companies know and they've sort of noticed that the consumers in the middle are not doing so well,” said Chris Christopher, an economist at research firm IHS. “However, they've realized that the upper income brackets are doing fine. Then there's people that are living paycheck to paycheck that are always looking for a good deal," As Christopher portrayed it, that has produced a "bifurcation" of the stock market, with companies harvesting profits by targeting customers at either end of the income spectrum. “Those companies that stick to the middle tier just suffer,” he said. Central bank prints $85 billion every month. How much of that money makes it into the middle class pockets? In the town that launched the War on Poverty 48 years ago, the poor are getting poorer despite the government's help. And the rich are getting richer because of it.The top 5 percent of households in Washington, D.C., made more than $500,000 on average last year, while the bottom 20 percent earned less than $9,500 - a ratio of 54 to 1. That gap is up from 39 to 1 two decades ago. It's wider than in any of the 50 states and all but two major cities. This at a time when income inequality in the United States as a whole has risen to levels last seen in the years before the Great Depression. The federal government does redistribute wealth down to struggling Americans. But in the years since President Lyndon Johnson took aim at poverty in his first State of the Union address, there has been an increasingly strong crosscurrent: The government is redistributing wealth up, too - especially in the nation's capital.

Link to above article blog: http://theun-politics.blogspot.com/2013/03/american-societys-lack-of-empathy.html

Here is another article on the same subject by a pscyhologist that talks about what he is seeing in America with lack of empathy and detachment among his fellow Americans. http://www.huffingtonpost.com/douglas-labier/americas-continuing-empat_b_637718.html

EDD has profound consequences for the mental health of individuals and society. Yet it's ignored as a psychological disturbance by most of my colleagues in the mental health professions, largely because it's become the norm throughout our emotional attitudes, public policies and behavior.

First, some explanation of what I mean by EDD: It's reflected in being unable to step outside yourself and tune in to what other people experience, especially those who feel, think and believe differently from yourself. EDD is a source of personal conflicts, of communication breakdown in intimate relationships, and of adversarial attitudes - including hatred - towards groups of people who differ in their beliefs, traditions, values or ways of life from your own.
 

nehalem256

Lifer
Apr 13, 2012
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Another aspect to this . Is how "detached" everything is in America . Our Nation has poverty , there are poor , and homeless that need help . Yet no one is helping them

Maybe no one is helping them because they are the victim of their own stupid choices?

Take this story from NPR

http://www.npr.org/2012/07/11/155103593/to-beat-odds-poor-single-moms-need-wide-safety-net
Take the case of 29-year-old Jennifer Stepp, who lives in Reading, Pa. Like 14 million other people in the U.S. who live in families headed by single mothers, she's poor. And she faces incredible odds.

Stepp has three children by three different fathers. The father of her eldest child, 10-year-old Isaiah, is serving 30 years in federal prison for armed robbery.

"He's met my son one time, when he was a baby. And he decided that he didn't want him," she says.

Stepp's middle child, 8-year-old Shyanne, usually sees her father every other weekend. But the father of her younger son is also in prison. Stepp says he's been behind bars for selling cocaine since she was pregnant. He has never met 1-year-old Makai.

If we are to live in a society the worships the freedom of people to make stupid choices. Why should we feel bad when people suffer from them?
 

waggy

No Lifer
Dec 14, 2000
68,143
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ugh. long post with diffrent things.

regarding the living facility they were right to do waht they did. The lady had a "living will" and did not want to be saved. they just fallowed her wishes. the family has come out and said they did the right thing. No problem found.

In fact i think forcing a old unhealthy person to live when there time is done a form of torture.


Another is about the surgate mother. did you read how the surgate "mother" told them she would abort for $15k? i didn't see it listed.

aborting a child that is going to have major health issues and disabilities? hmm i can understand it. Yes it would be expensive. shrug big deal kids are expensive and take a lot of time.

My consideration is about that child how is life going to be? is it worth the pain, emotional probmels etc? that in all honesty is a good debate. i can see both sides of that argument.


the last one is a wall of text with a bunch of numbers and no real point.
 

waggy

No Lifer
Dec 14, 2000
68,143
10
81
Maybe no one is helping them because they are the victim of their own stupid choices?

Take this story from NPR

http://www.npr.org/2012/07/11/155103593/to-beat-odds-poor-single-moms-need-wide-safety-net


If we are to live in a society the worships the freedom of people to make stupid choices. Why should we feel bad when people suffer from them?

there is this too. people make choices. it amazes me that people make a really dumb choice and then want society to fix it.

but i guess that goes back to parenting. without said parents in the picture the cycle continues.
 

Oldgamer

Diamond Member
Jan 15, 2013
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Maybe no one is helping them because they are the victim of their own stupid choices?

Take this story from NPR

http://www.npr.org/2012/07/11/155103593/to-beat-odds-poor-single-moms-need-wide-safety-net


If we are to live in a society the worships the freedom of people to make stupid choices. Why should we feel bad when people suffer from them?


I think you just demonstrated what the two authors were talking about. Did you bother to read either? I didn't think so..
 

nehalem256

Lifer
Apr 13, 2012
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I think you just demonstrated what the two authors were talking about. Did you bother to read either? I didn't think so..

Empathy does not apply to situations that people cause themselves.

If I went out and lit me car on fire. How much empathy would I deserve when I have to walk the 12 miles home?
 

Svnla

Lifer
Nov 10, 2003
17,986
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there is this too. people make choices. it amazes me that people make a really dumb choice, BLAME EVERYONE ELSE BUT THEMSELVES, and then want society to fix it.

but i guess that goes back to parenting. without said parents in the picture the cycle continues.

True, I just add another part (bolded and underlined).
 

Oldgamer

Diamond Member
Jan 15, 2013
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Empathy does not apply to situations that people cause themselves.

If I went out and lit me car on fire. How much empathy would I deserve when I have to walk the 12 miles home?

Because it is so much easier to blame people, and find fault with them than to show an ounce of empathy or compassion right? It is always easier to turn the blind eye...

Again, your just demonstrating with the authors have talked about in their articles.
 

FaaR

Golden Member
Dec 28, 2007
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An empathic person would care about you for being messed-up enough in the head to set fire to your own car, and give you a ride home.

Actual empathy isn't dependent on moral douchebag judgements such as "you're too stupid to feel sorry for. Why? Because I said so."

It's like that stupid cliché, "what would jesus do", although christians are very frequently not empathic at all, or at least not towards people they don't approve of, not share their "values", and so on. In any case, I really doubt jesus of the stories and myths in the bible would slow down his vehicle just enough to throw a "screw you" to the guy with the burning car, before stepping on the gas again.
 

Oldgamer

Diamond Member
Jan 15, 2013
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An empathic person would care about you for being messed-up enough in the head to set fire to your own car, and give you a ride home.

Actual empathy isn't dependent on moral douchebag judgements such as "you're too stupid to feel sorry for. Why? Because I said so."


It's like that stupid cliché, "what would jesus do", although christians are very frequently not empathic at all, or at least not towards people they don't approve of, not share their "values", and so on. In any case, I really doubt jesus of the stories and myths in the bible would slow down his vehicle just enough to throw a "screw you" to the guy with the burning car, before stepping on the gas again.

Exactly..
 

nehalem256

Lifer
Apr 13, 2012
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Because it is so much easier to blame people, and find fault with them than to show an ounce of empathy or compassion right? It is always easier to turn the blind eye...

Societies have always had codes of behavior that they expected of their members.

In fact I think have shared values is essential to empathy and compassion. Unfortunately liberals have spent decades destroying any concept of share values, and then they wonder why people have no empathy for people with whom they share nothing. :hmm:

An empathic person would care about you for being messed-up enough in the head to set fire to your own car, and give you a ride home.

Actual empathy isn't dependent on moral douchebag judgements such as "you're too stupid to feel sorry for. Why? Because I said so."

Empathy is however dependent on being able to find some connection with the other person.

It should be obvious why it is therefore impossible for most middle-class people to have empathy for someone who has children with multiple thug baby daddies.

How can you walk a mile in another person's shoes when they just lite them on fire?
 

glenn1

Lifer
Sep 6, 2000
25,383
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An empathic person would care about you for being messed-up enough in the head to set fire to your own car, and give you a ride home.

Actual empathy isn't dependent on moral douchebag judgements such as "you're too stupid to feel sorry for. Why? Because I said so."

It's like that stupid cliché, "what would jesus do", although christians are very frequently not empathic at all, or at least not towards people they don't approve of, not share their "values", and so on. In any case, I really doubt jesus of the stories and myths in the bible would slow down his vehicle just enough to throw a "screw you" to the guy with the burning car, before stepping on the gas again.

An empathetic person would have you arrested for arson so you could be driven to prison where you'd receive any needed psychiatric care.
 

Orignal Earl

Diamond Member
Oct 27, 2005
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there is this too. people make choices. it amazes me that people make a really dumb choice and then want society to fix it.

but i guess that goes back to parenting. without said parents in the picture the cycle continues.

The trick I suppose is getting that good set of parents.
I've know generations of families that the boys turned out just like the father, and were horrible drunks and beat the shit out kids, wife.
Then every once in a while, one of the kids manages to break the cycle go the right way
 

Oldgamer

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Jan 15, 2013
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Societies have always had codes of behavior that they expected of their members.

In fact I think have shared values is essential to empathy and compassion. Unfortunately liberals have spent decades destroying any concept of share values, and then they wonder why people have no empathy for people with whom they share nothing. :hmm:



Empathy is however dependent on being able to find some connection with the other person.

It should be obvious why it is therefore impossible for most middle-class people to have empathy for someone who has children with multiple thug baby daddies.

How can you walk a mile in another person's shoes when they just lite them on fire?

Empathy is an innate ability, and you really are hung up on blaming aren't you? "the ability or the willingness to experience the world from someone else's point of view,"

I was reading another article that talks about psychcological issues such as narcissitic personality disorder and many other disorders that are tied to the inability to have empathy and compassion. Some of these psychological disorders have been displayed in people who kill, injure of murder someone else or another being. The inability to feel compassion or empathy can be a sign of a disorder.

There is another good article to read (albeit you probably won't) but it also talks about Empathy Deficit Disorder. http://www.cnn.com/2008/LIVING/personal/06/18/o.empathy/
 
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nehalem256

Lifer
Apr 13, 2012
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Empathy is an innate ability, and you really are hung up on blaming aren't you? "the ability or the willingness to experience the world from someone else's point of view,"

I was reading another article that talks about psychcological issues such as narcissitic personality disorder and many other disorders that are tied to the inability to have empathy and compassion. Some of these psychological disorders have been displayed in people who kill, injure of murder someone else or another being. The inability to feel compassion or empathy can be a sign of a disorder.

There is another good article to read (albeit you probably won't) but it also talks about Empathy Deficit Disorder. http://www.cnn.com/2008/LIVING/personal/06/18/o.empathy/

No reasonable person feels compassion for people who repeatedly screw up their life because of their own stupid choices.

Does anyone feel compassion for say a guy who repeatedly crashes his car because of driving drunk? Would you let him borrow your car? :colbert:

EDIT: Further is it possible to have a society in which no one is responsible for their choices? Which appears to be what you want.
 

Oldgamer

Diamond Member
Jan 15, 2013
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From Psychology of Today http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog...k-empathy-the-most-telling-narcissistic-trait

Lack of empathy is one of the most striking features of people with narcissistic personality disorder. It's a hallmark of the disorder in the same way that fear of abandonment is in borderline personality disorder.

"Narcissists do not consider the pain they inflict on others; nor do they give any credence to others' perceptions," says Dr. Les Carter in the book Enough of You, Let's Talk About Me (p. 9). "They simply do not care about thoughts and feelings that conflict with their own." Do not expect them to listen, validate, understand, or support you.

This is exacerbated when the person has a touch of antisocial personality disorder.
 

Oldgamer

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Jan 15, 2013
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Then the article goes on to say:

Let's look at what this means on a more moderate basis. Here are examples from partners of narcissists:

He would actually get mad at me if I was sick. I said, "I sat here with you for days when you were depressed and couldn't get out of bed. And now you can't even be a little nice to me when I am sick?"
My partner would hurt my feelings just when things were going well. When I would question him about it, he would make up excuses and tell me I'm wrong for feeling the way I did, and if I didn't like it there was something wrong with me.
I could spend an hour detailing how I felt hurt and she would sit there, cold as ice. When it was her turn to speak, she tore down every word that came out of my mouth until I had to apologize for expressing how I felt. I ignored this red flag and made excuses to myself and others.
Note that narcissists can pick up on social cues and can "fake it" when necessary. Aside from looking "normal," the hope is that they will get something back. Partners said:

He has made adaptations that allow him to "appear" to be thoughtful and concerned about others. Early in our marriage, he would ask me what I would like to do. Then one day it dawned on me that while he asked, we never ended up following my suggestions! When I mentioned this to him, he had a crestfallen appearance and behaved like child who had been caught doing something wrong.
I think that faux empathy stems from a number of things. A need to fit in, socially--to appear like a feeling, caring person is certainly one of them. In some cases, it's probably an acquired social skill, albeit a superficial one. Like learning which utensil to use when dining in polite company. In other cases, it's a means to getting what you want from people.
She had "intellectual" empathy: almost as if she knew she should react that way. She didn't feel it at the soul/being level. She knew the words, but couldn't hear the emotional music of our relationship.

Could this be you nehalem256?? LOL
 

nehalem256

Lifer
Apr 13, 2012
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Then the article goes on to say:

Let's look at what this means on a more moderate basis. Here are examples from partners of narcissists:

He would actually get mad at me if I was sick. I said, "I sat here with you for days when you were depressed and couldn't get out of bed. And now you can't even be a little nice to me when I am sick?"
My partner would hurt my feelings just when things were going well. When I would question him about it, he would make up excuses and tell me I'm wrong for feeling the way I did, and if I didn't like it there was something wrong with me.
I could spend an hour detailing how I felt hurt and she would sit there, cold as ice. When it was her turn to speak, she tore down every word that came out of my mouth until I had to apologize for expressing how I felt. I ignored this red flag and made excuses to myself and others.
Note that narcissists can pick up on social cues and can "fake it" when necessary. Aside from looking "normal," the hope is that they will get something back. Partners said:

He has made adaptations that allow him to "appear" to be thoughtful and concerned about others. Early in our marriage, he would ask me what I would like to do. Then one day it dawned on me that while he asked, we never ended up following my suggestions! When I mentioned this to him, he had a crestfallen appearance and behaved like child who had been caught doing something wrong.
I think that faux empathy stems from a number of things. A need to fit in, socially--to appear like a feeling, caring person is certainly one of them. In some cases, it's probably an acquired social skill, albeit a superficial one. Like learning which utensil to use when dining in polite company. In other cases, it's a means to getting what you want from people.
She had "intellectual" empathy: almost as if she knew she should react that way. She didn't feel it at the soul/being level. She knew the words, but couldn't hear the emotional music of our relationship.

Could this be you nehalem256?? LOL

And this has what to do with:

Another aspect to this . Is how "detached" everything is in America . Our Nation has poverty , there are poor , and homeless that need help . Yet no one is helping them .

You don't see how there is a difference between how you treat a loved one who is suffering from the flu, and how you treat strangers that are suffering because of their own repeated stupid life choices?

I mean WOW. The mind of liberals ladies and gentlemen.
 

Moonbeam

Elite Member
Nov 24, 1999
74,038
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We base our lives and our reputations, our personal sense of self worth, on how well we compete in our competitive driven society. It is this that destroys empathy because competition is hate. We worship what is a monster that destroys us from within. This psychopathology can be seen right down to little league games and elementary school bullying.

I remember reading many years ago about western teachers who went to teach in Polynesia and were surprised because all the children in the class would raise their hands when one did. In this way they said to the teacher that none of us is special or important because we know an answer.
 

lotus503

Diamond Member
Feb 12, 2005
6,502
1
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Empathy does not apply to situations that people cause themselves.

If I went out and lit me car on fire. How much empathy would I deserve when I have to walk the 12 miles home?

Empathy absolutely applies to situations people cause themselves.

Empathy isn't something that is deserved its the capacity to recognize emotions that are being experienced by another.
Sympathy and compassion are different.

Lack of empathy is a key component in sociopaths.
 

Geosurface

Diamond Member
Mar 22, 2012
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I believe the very reason this nation is crumbling is from TOO MUCH empathy. If there is now a dialing back of it? Fantastic.
 

Oldgamer

Diamond Member
Jan 15, 2013
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Empathy absolutely applies to situations people cause themselves.

Empathy isn't something that is deserved its the capacity to recognize emotions that are being experienced by another.
Sympathy and compassion are different.

Lack of empathy is a key component in sociopaths.

Yea, I tried to demonstrate that through the links, but I don't think they read them...lol
 

nehalem256

Lifer
Apr 13, 2012
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Empathy absolutely applies to situations people cause themselves.

Empathy isn't something that is deserved its the capacity to recognize emotions that are being experienced by another.
Sympathy and compassion are different.

Lack of empathy is a key component in sociopaths.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Empathy#Emotional_and_cognitive_empathy
Empathic concern: the inclination to experience of sympathy and compassion towards others in response to their suffering

I think it was pretty clear he was talking about empathic concern. Hence the "Yet no one is helping them" statement he made with regard to poverty.
 

Geosurface

Diamond Member
Mar 22, 2012
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Lack of empathy is a key component in sociopaths.

Complete lack of empathy, perhaps.

Measured, thoughtfully applied empathy with some requirements placed on it is a key component to being an adult who doesn't get taken advantage of.

Whenever the first Kill Bill film came out, me and two of my friends were heading to the theater to see it, and I spotted some lady laying in a front lawn, looking disoriented. I demanded my friends stop, and they were bitching endlessly about it... they wanted to make the movie in time. I went and helped her up, and found out she was a blind lady from a home for the blind a few blocks from where she had fallen and become disoriented. I helped her back there, and we still made the movie on time. Didn't even miss any trailers. I got mockery from my two friends for being a goodie two-shoes, etc... (btw my friends aren't sociopaths)

More recently, a couple of years ago while driving through Wyoming with my conservative ultra-Christian friend (and this was when I agreed with him on nothing) some hippy kids asked us for gas money and he very kindly talked to them about being irresponsible to have planned their trip with the ASSUMPTION that others would pay for their gas the *entire* way (he got them to admit that) - at that time I was uncomfortable about him being that way toward them, but now I would give them the same talk he did. Or at least, I'd feel the same way. Not sure I'd actually talk to them. (he isn't a sociopath either)

I think the blind lady was deserving of empathy.

Someone having a string of kids on welfare by various criminal fathers? I have no empathy for them, and I loathe the fact that their criminal genes are spreading.

Show empathy to people like that, and you often end up being taken advantage of either as an individual (when they steal a bunch of your shit for drug money) or as a society (when they ruin your society)
 
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