America and Great Britain should apologize to Iran

[Dari]

Originally posted by: LegendKiller

Originally posted by: Dari
You missed the point entirely. The PEOPLE living in those regions have a different perspective of your spectrum and they see things differently. They, too, have been victims of Western colonialism and the very leaders you complain about may indeed be victims of Western persecution or the puppets you so criticize. Believe me man, there are many bad things that the democratic gov'ts of the west do that you would not believe or would not want to believe. The people, as always, are those who suffer the most.

No, you are missing the point. It isn't up to anybody but the people to place blame upon their own society and acceptance of the status quo. The government is supposed to follow the people's desires, Iranians do not allow this since they blindly accept an authoritarian dictatorship ruled by religious fanatics.

Almost every western country has been a part of an authoritarian structure and almost every one of them has had them removed, either by others or by themselves. They made the choice (or had it forced upon them in some cases like Germany and Italy) to remove those oppressive governments.

Nobody in America bitched to India because the British sucked. No, we took up arms and beat the redcoats (albeit with a little help). Don't bitch about your government and then say it's the US' fault. Iranians *ALLOW* their government to oppress them, they *ALLOW* their government to mislead them. They *ALLOW* their government to act like a spoiled brat while threatening others.

Furthermore, don't make the assumption that I accept any of the actions undertaken by the US in the past 60 years. I find them reprehensable and completely out of alignment with what this country was built for. We were not meant to be an empire, nor have hegemony over the world, if anything we were built for the exact opposite intent.

It's too bad people have lost sight of that trajectory the truly intelligent people of this country set for us. It's too bad Iran allows it's intelligent people to be pushed around by religous fanatics.

However, I don't blame Iran for our country's woes, I blame us. Perhaps you should start doing the same.

IT was the UsS.'s fault. They conspired to overthrow a legitimate gov't. That's why there was a revolution. As for America's own system, it has been abusing its powers for almost a hundred years now. But when the terrorists attacked on 9/11, people wondered why, instead of taking their gov't abuses to task. Americans also don't like to ask many questions: such as why there are CIA agents defending drug runners in Latin America. The also failed to ask the right questions about treatment of Native Americans and African Americans in the US. We can go on and on, but like some frenchman said, every people deserve the government they have. Right now the Americans have a stupid, aggressive, and conspirational government and the Iranians have an angry one. Go figure.

 

[LegendKiller]

Originally posted by: Dari
IT was the UsS.'s fault. They conspired to overthrow a legitimate gov't. That's why there was a revolution. As for America's own system, it has been abusing its powers for almost a hundred years now. But when the terrorists attacked on 9/11, people wondered why, instead of taking their gov't abuses to task. Americans also don't like to ask many questions: such as why there are CIA agents defending drug runners in Latin America. The also failed to ask the right questions about treatment of Native Americans and African Americans in the US. We can go on and on, but like some frenchman said, every people deserve the government they have. Right now the Americans have a stupid, aggressive, and conspirational government and the Iranians have an angry one. Go figure.

Who cares who's fault it is? Just fix the f'in problem. Nobody is going to do it for you and an apology isn't going to fix the f'd up Iranian government. The only thing that can fix the Iranian government is *IRANIANS*. Nation-building of the past 60 years is a failure, we did it through many means and an apology won't work either.

Get a stinkin clue man. The cure to the worlds problems aren't apologies, it's personal responsibility of government actions. Until people hold governments accountable for the actions they undertake, people will get screwed. Until Iranians say "This is enough" they will continue to get screwed, regardless of who does it.

 

[Doboji]

Originally posted by: Dari
For the religious fanatics in America and Israel, it should be remembered that Judaism started out as a local religion in what is now Iraq. Abram, upon instructions from his god, gathered his people and went to their promised land. Apparently the Jews were not the only people attracted to this strip of land. Eventually they were kicked out and so began the exodus to Nubia/Ethiopia (where the Ark of the Covenant is reported to be in the the ancient city of Axum) and Persia (ancient Iran). The Jews in Nubia (ancient Sudan) and Ethiopia continued to practice the ancient Judaism in Elephantine and Lake Tana, respectively. However, it was the Jews in Persia that created what is modern Judaism. Enlightened by the Persians and their religion, which revolved around a single God, the God of History. (This religion was derived from the Indian religion, Hinduism, which also revolves around a single supreme God, but with thousands and thousands of avatars. This is not unlike the Christian Trinity of Father, Son, and Holy Spirit being one and the same). The God turned Jehovah, their god, from the god of the Jews to the God of History. They also adopted many other myths from the Persian Magi religion.

For those interested in contemporary history, it should be remembered that Iran had a democratic system in the mid 20th century until the United States co-opted with Great Britain to overthrow their Prime Minister after he wanted to nationalized his country's oil because he felt the Anglo-Americans were reaping much of the benefits and not the Iranian people. They two superpowers put in the Shah, a puppet they could manipulate as they wished. With the American puppet in charge, Iran reversed the Prime Minister's decision and the Anglo-American corporation continued to reap the benefits of Iranian oil and gas. Furthermore, the Americans forced Iran to befriend Israel, making the former the best friend of the latter in the neighborhood. After the revolution, the Iranians turned against their shah, his masters, and Israel. To regain power in Iran, the United States supported Saddam Hussein's adventures in Iran. There was a bloody eight year war where over a million Iranians died. Saddam's weapons were supplied by the United States and Great Britain. Unfortunately for Saddam, his American support unraveled when he overplayed his hand and invaded Kuwait, (rightly) claiming that Kuwait was Iraq's 19th province. The rest is history.

Today, we have Great Britain and America, along with a frightened Israel trying to stop Iran from developing nuclear energy and its residual benefits, including nuclear weapons. It should be remembered that since the 1979 revolution Iran has been starved of development and it has to import 40% of its oil because its oil and gas industry is so underdeveloped. Furtmermore, Iran's main cities are smogged because of heavy pollution.

It should be noted that these are an ancient and proud people. America and the West should treat Iran with respect and not talk down to her. They should not threaten her or conspire to overthrow her leaders. A dialogue of mutual respect and mutual understanding is the way to go, not threats and derogatory statements. And an apology for past wrongs would go a long way in making the Middle East a safer place.

Seems to me you're on the wrong side... maybe you should convert to Islam, and go move to a more appropriate country.

-Max

 

[BaliBabyDoc]

Originally posted by: EagleKeeper
The US did not play favorites in the Iran-Iraq conflict.

Both sides were supported with weapons and intelligence.

I guess they didn't teach history at your school. The US (and USSR) wanted Iraq to win that conflict. If Reagan didn't have an illegal war to support, we wouldn't have sold squat to Iran. So in essence, GIVING intelligence to Iraq and SELLING weapons to Iran so the money could be diverted to Central American terrorists . . . aren't really comparable.

 

[Tom]

Originally posted by: BaliBabyDoc

Originally posted by: EagleKeeper
The US did not play favorites in the Iran-Iraq conflict.

Both sides were supported with weapons and intelligence.

I guess they didn't teach history at your school. The US (and USSR) wanted Iraq to win that conflict. If Reagan didn't have an illegal war to support, we wouldn't have sold squat to Iran. So in essence, GIVING intelligence to Iraq and SELLING weapons to Iran so the money could be diverted to Central American terrorists . . . aren't really comparable.

I would dispute one thing you've said, I don't believe we wanted Iraq to win, we wanted a stalemate.

But I agree with the rest of your points, we supported Iraq to a much greater degree than Iran. Not surprising given the seizure of our embassy in Iran and the hostage crisis that preceded the Iran/Iraq war.

 

[miketheidiot]

Originally posted by: LegendKiller

Originally posted by: Dari
IT was the UsS.'s fault. They conspired to overthrow a legitimate gov't. That's why there was a revolution. As for America's own system, it has been abusing its powers for almost a hundred years now. But when the terrorists attacked on 9/11, people wondered why, instead of taking their gov't abuses to task. Americans also don't like to ask many questions: such as why there are CIA agents defending drug runners in Latin America. The also failed to ask the right questions about treatment of Native Americans and African Americans in the US. We can go on and on, but like some frenchman said, every people deserve the government they have. Right now the Americans have a stupid, aggressive, and conspirational government and the Iranians have an angry one. Go figure.

Who cares who's fault it is? Just fix the f'in problem. Nobody is going to do it for you and an apology isn't going to fix the f'd up Iranian government. The only thing that can fix the Iranian government is *IRANIANS*. Nation-building of the past 60 years is a failure, we did it through many means and an apology won't work either.

Get a stinkin clue man. The cure to the worlds problems aren't apologies, it's personal responsibility of government actions. Until people hold governments accountable for the actions they undertake, people will get screwed. Until Iranians say "This is enough" they will continue to get screwed, regardless of who does it.

Or we could take nto accunt how our actions affect the outcomes in other countries before we do stupid ******. Maybe we would get better result in the international community if we stopped trying to screw everyone.

 

[miketheidiot]

Originally posted by: Doboji



Seems to me you're on the wrong side... maybe you should convert to Islam, and go move to a more appropriate country.

-Max

Who's side is he on? and even better yet, what has he said that puts him on the side you place him on? There are more than just two positions in the world, "them" and "us".

 

[imported_michaelpatrick33]

When the leader of a nation publically states that he wants another nation wiped off the map and then announces a nuclear program than all other historical considerations must be put aside because contemporary madness trumps historical context.

Israel is not going anywhere ... period. The Palestinians are not going anywhere ... period. Now let us constructively develop a two state region ... sigh yeah right.

Edit: Iranian president speaking Should Iranian President apologize to Israel?

 

[magomago]

Originally posted by: Doboji
Seems to me you're on the wrong side... maybe you should convert to Islam, and go move to a more appropriate country.

-Max

:disgust::thumbsdown:

Don't agree with him (I may not necessarily agree with him) but you hinted at one thing:
If you convert to Islam you should go to a different country. It is not explicit, but to say your two statements are not connected at all is ridiculous.

Again, boo for such a comment. This is LAND OF THE FREE.

Bigget problem today is that people cannot see that you can be a "westerner" and still be "a muslim". They always talk about "islam vs the west" and don't realize that we have many muslims who have spent their entire lives here, and right now in the USA there is an entire generation growing up having been born here and never knowing anything of "the homeland" save for what they hear from their parents...
Islam vs the West doesn't exist...because you can easily be a Muslim in the West without sacrificing your religion

 

[novon]

Iran's grievances with US/Britain actions in the past hold a lot of weight. The revolution was a direct effect of oppression through proxy from the West, through the coup, the shah, and the Iran-Iraq war. But just the fact that the revolution happened shows the Iranian people will not accept foreign control. The downside is the reaction; the revolution was another extreme to right the first issue. The next challenge will be for the people of Iran to have a second revolution to create an independent, strong government that resists foreign interference, but at the same time can integrate with the rest of the world. Unfortunately, the current US/British/Israel destructive expedition into the Middle East is not making it easier for Iran.

An apology may actually work in this situation to cool down the situation, and work out a deal between the two sides. Somehow I think the arrogance and greed of the current US administration will never produce an apology though, they seem to only know the language of force, and that's not going to end well for either side.

 

[LegendKiller]

Originally posted by: miketheidiot
Or we could take nto accunt how our actions affect the outcomes in other countries before we do stupid ******. Maybe we would get better result in the international community if we stopped trying to screw everyone.

No doubt. Nothing I have said indicates that I say "Well crap, so we f'd up, who cares, lets do it again!". From an Iranian perspective, they need to get their crap together and depose those morons, not blame everybody else. Then, when a country tries to screw them over, they tell them to piss off.

At the same time, we as Americans need to stop our politicians from these stupid nation-building crusades. France didn't beat the piss out of England to give us our freedom. Freedom is earned, not given. It takes drive to grab it and carry on. Otherwise you get f'd up crap.

 

[LegendKiller]

Originally posted by: novon
Iran's grievances with US/Britain actions in the past hold a lot of weight. The revolution was a direct effect of oppression through proxy from the West, through the coup, the shah, and the Iran-Iraq war. But just the fact that the revolution happened shows the Iranian people will not accept foreign control. The downside is the reaction; the revolution was another extreme to right the first issue. The next challenge will be for the people of Iran to have a second revolution to create an independent, strong government that resists foreign interference, but at the same time can integrate with the rest of the world. Unfortunately, the current US/British/Israel destructive expedition into the Middle East is not making it easier for Iran.

An apology may actually work in this situation to cool down the situation, and work out a deal between the two sides. Somehow I think the arrogance and greed of the current US administration will never produce an apology though, they seem to only know the language of force, and that's not going to end well for either side.

Sorry, but a "yeah, we screwed up, sorry about that" won't stop whackos from trying to get nukes. Nor will it stop them from destabilizing the ME through threats of other countries. The problems are more fundamental than that.

The only way I could see it working is that it would provide the catalyst for the populace to say "screw these religious whackos, we want to be friends with the west now that they aren't so arrogant and have apologized". However, I *HIGHLY* doubt that would happen.

 

[Jaskalas]

Originally posted by: flavio
The US and the UN should recognize that Iran had gone above and beyond the requirement of the NPT (which Israel won't sign) which had all but halted their nuclear energy program (which the US helped start).

While in full compliance (while the US hasn't been) they start getting threats.

I imagine this could piss people off.

Do you intend to say we should recognize Iran's right to shrouded nuclear technology? Suppose if you make excuses for it....

 

[Dari]

Originally posted by: Jaskalas

Originally posted by: flavio
The US and the UN should recognize that Iran had gone above and beyond the requirement of the NPT (which Israel won't sign) which had all but halted their nuclear energy program (which the US helped start).

While in full compliance (while the US hasn't been) they start getting threats.

I imagine this could piss people off.

Do you intend to say we should recognize Iran's right to shrouded nuclear technology? Suppose if you make excuses for it....

Why do you believe that they do not deserve nuclear technology? Are they any less of a people than the Indians, Israelis, Pakistanis, French, British, Russians, or Chinese? Science and technology is a double-edged sword. Tell me, whose the gatekeeper to science and technology? Israel/America/Britain? Who?

 

[novon]

Originally posted by: LegendKiller

Originally posted by: novon
Iran's grievances with US/Britain actions in the past hold a lot of weight. The revolution was a direct effect of oppression through proxy from the West, through the coup, the shah, and the Iran-Iraq war. But just the fact that the revolution happened shows the Iranian people will not accept foreign control. The downside is the reaction; the revolution was another extreme to right the first issue. The next challenge will be for the people of Iran to have a second revolution to create an independent, strong government that resists foreign interference, but at the same time can integrate with the rest of the world. Unfortunately, the current US/British/Israel destructive expedition into the Middle East is not making it easier for Iran.

An apology may actually work in this situation to cool down the situation, and work out a deal between the two sides. Somehow I think the arrogance and greed of the current US administration will never produce an apology though, they seem to only know the language of force, and that's not going to end well for either side.

Sorry, but a "yeah, we screwed up, sorry about that" won't stop whackos from trying to get nukes. Nor will it stop them from destabilizing the ME through threats of other countries. The problems are more fundamental than that.

The only way I could see it working is that it would provide the catalyst for the populace to say "screw these religious whackos, we want to be friends with the west now that they aren't so arrogant and have apologized". However, I *HIGHLY* doubt that would happen.

Who's defining them as whackos? The US? Israel? Of course.

The only reason they want Nuclear power is to be independent from the West and to deter an attack. I don't think that's crazy considering everything that's happened to them.

Now oppression of their own people, that's another story. But Iran hasn't attacked another country for 200 years, I'd consider Bush much more of a whacko.

 

[Dari]

Originally posted by: novon

Originally posted by: LegendKiller

Originally posted by: novon
Iran's grievances with US/Britain actions in the past hold a lot of weight. The revolution was a direct effect of oppression through proxy from the West, through the coup, the shah, and the Iran-Iraq war. But just the fact that the revolution happened shows the Iranian people will not accept foreign control. The downside is the reaction; the revolution was another extreme to right the first issue. The next challenge will be for the people of Iran to have a second revolution to create an independent, strong government that resists foreign interference, but at the same time can integrate with the rest of the world. Unfortunately, the current US/British/Israel destructive expedition into the Middle East is not making it easier for Iran.

An apology may actually work in this situation to cool down the situation, and work out a deal between the two sides. Somehow I think the arrogance and greed of the current US administration will never produce an apology though, they seem to only know the language of force, and that's not going to end well for either side.

Sorry, but a "yeah, we screwed up, sorry about that" won't stop whackos from trying to get nukes. Nor will it stop them from destabilizing the ME through threats of other countries. The problems are more fundamental than that.

The only way I could see it working is that it would provide the catalyst for the populace to say "screw these religious whackos, we want to be friends with the west now that they aren't so arrogant and have apologized". However, I *HIGHLY* doubt that would happen.

Who's defining them as whackos? The US? Israel? Of course.

The only reason they want Nuclear power is to be independent from the West and to deter and attack. I don't think that's crazy considering everything that's happened to them.

Now oppression of their own people, that's another story. But Iran hasn't attacked another country for 200 years, I'd consider Bush much more of a whacko.

Exactly. Mutual respect for each others civilization is a good starting point. By calling an entire people/government "whackos" or extremist is pre-judging them and simply wrong. We Americans should try to understand our supposed enemies rather than call them names.

On your other point, dependency is another powerful issue in this new world. China is rising and doesn't want to be dependent on anyone. Unlike the Japanese and Germans, who the Americans could push around at will, the new leaders from the East are confident of themselves, know what they want, and don't want to be enslaved to a particular policy or nation. However, the West, which has been controlling things for hundreds of years, is uncomfortable with giving up power; hence we have these problems. God willing, wise men will emerge from this imbroglio. Hopefully, they'll emerge before something catastrophic happens, not before.

 

[rise]

Originally posted by: Jaskalas

Originally posted by: flavio
The US and the UN should recognize that Iran had gone above and beyond the requirement of the NPT (which Israel won't sign) which had all but halted their nuclear energy program (which the US helped start).

While in full compliance (while the US hasn't been) they start getting threats.

I imagine this could piss people off.

Do you intend to say we should recognize Iran's right to shrouded nuclear technology? Suppose if you make excuses for it....

look at it from iran's point of view. they get called to the security council for trying to develop nukes while israel buys two more nuclear subs. and germany is picking up a third of the tab.

so israel will have five nuclear subs that can park off the iranian coast, somewhere around 100 nukes already built and yet iran is being called in front of the security council.

i don't want iran to have nukes either, but why is it israel can continue to arm on western money. i don't see how that can't create friction.

 

[Gand1]

 

[slsmnaz]

Originally posted by: rise

Originally posted by: Jaskalas

Originally posted by: flavio
The US and the UN should recognize that Iran had gone above and beyond the requirement of the NPT (which Israel won't sign) which had all but halted their nuclear energy program (which the US helped start).

While in full compliance (while the US hasn't been) they start getting threats.

I imagine this could piss people off.

Do you intend to say we should recognize Iran's right to shrouded nuclear technology? Suppose if you make excuses for it....

look at it from iran's point of view. they get called to the security council for trying to develop nukes while israel buys two more nuclear subs. and germany is picking up a third of the tab.

so israel will have five nuclear subs that can park off the iranian coast, somewhere around 100 nukes already built and yet iran is being called in front of the security council.

i don't want iran to have nukes either, but why is it israel can continue to arm on western money. i don't see how that can't create friction.

The difference is the level of control on the nukes. It will take Israel much longer to authorize the use than it would Iran. Also, Israel has never made the point that wiping Iran off the map is one of their goals.

 

[LegendKiller]

Originally posted by: novon

Who's defining them as whackos? The US? Israel? Of course.

The only reason they want Nuclear power is to be independent from the West and to deter an attack. I don't think that's crazy considering everything that's happened to them.

Now oppression of their own people, that's another story. But Iran hasn't attacked another country for 200 years, I'd consider Bush much more of a whacko.

The language coming out of Iran is certainly not passive in nature.

 

[rise]

Originally posted by: slsmnaz
The difference is the level of control on the nukes. It will take Israel much longer to authorize the use than it would Iran. Also, Israel has never made the point that wiping Iran off the map is one of their goals.

i agreee. but that doesn't mean thats the way other soveriegn nations see it. why should they be denied the same "deterrent" other nations can develop and deny having.

 

[slsmnaz]

Originally posted by: rise

Originally posted by: slsmnaz
The difference is the level of control on the nukes. It will take Israel much longer to authorize the use than it would Iran. Also, Israel has never made the point that wiping Iran off the map is one of their goals.

i agreee. but that doesn't mean thats the way other soveriegn nations see it. why should they be denied the same "deterrent" other nations can develop and deny having.

The fear is they don't view the nuke as a MAD weapon or a defensive one. It will be used as an offensive one.

 

[novon]

Originally posted by: slsmnaz

Originally posted by: rise

Originally posted by: slsmnaz
The difference is the level of control on the nukes. It will take Israel much longer to authorize the use than it would Iran. Also, Israel has never made the point that wiping Iran off the map is one of their goals.

i agreee. but that doesn't mean thats the way other soveriegn nations see it. why should they be denied the same "deterrent" other nations can develop and deny having.

The fear is they don't view the nuke as a MAD weapon or a defensive one. It will be used as an offensive one.

That's just a fear, not rational. If you read into the 60 mintues interview of ahmadenejad you would see that they are not interested in any offensive actions, they just want the right to be an independent state free from influence.

 

[rise]

Originally posted by: slsmnaz

Originally posted by: rise

Originally posted by: slsmnaz
The difference is the level of control on the nukes. It will take Israel much longer to authorize the use than it would Iran. Also, Israel has never made the point that wiping Iran off the map is one of their goals.

i agreee. but that doesn't mean thats the way other soveriegn nations see it. why should they be denied the same "deterrent" other nations can develop and deny having.

The fear is they don't view the nuke as a MAD weapon or a defensive one. It will be used as an offensive one.

why would a country that has never started a war use it as an offensive weapon?


/devils advocate

i know what the fears are and i share them. but alli said was that from an iranian POV, why should israel have nukes when they can't?

 

[slsmnaz]

Originally posted by: novon

Originally posted by: slsmnaz

Originally posted by: rise

Originally posted by: slsmnaz
The difference is the level of control on the nukes. It will take Israel much longer to authorize the use than it would Iran. Also, Israel has never made the point that wiping Iran off the map is one of their goals.

i agreee. but that doesn't mean thats the way other soveriegn nations see it. why should they be denied the same "deterrent" other nations can develop and deny having.

The fear is they don't view the nuke as a MAD weapon or a defensive one. It will be used as an offensive one.

That's just a fear, not rational. If you read into the 60 mintues interview of ahmadenejad you would see that they are not interested in any offensive actions, they just want the right to be an independent state free from influence.

You're seriously telling me to buy that interview as sincere? I just feel bad Mike W was used like that. Give Iran a nuke and Israel will be gone in a year. He has made it clear that is it a goal.