Amendment to Formalize Impeachment

interchange

Diamond Member
Oct 10, 1999
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Regardless of where you stand politically, it seems clear that no one believes what has been happening with Trump represents a fair, impartial process. From investigation to statements about how a potential trial will be handled from McConnell and Graham, everyone I believe will find some aspect to take issue with. I am not starting this thread to debate where and how things have gone wrong but rather to collaborate on a proposition to codify the process for future potential impeachments to mitigate these pitfalls and arguments about process attributed to partisan bias.

Loosely, my ideas.
Principally, there needs to be an investigatory phase. In recent cases, the most useful ways to gather evidence have been through special prosecutors. Unfortunately, Trump has broken that through his ability to appoint Barr. Firstly in Barr's ability to disrupt the findings of Mueller's investigation and subsequently Barr's presence in the current source of Impeachment proceedings preventing appropriate appointment of such counsel and, had such been elected, dictating the rules for that counsel and cherry-picking the person running the investigation. I am not pleased with the prospect of a partisan choice through Congress either, but it's better than the executive being in charge of it's own oversight. A 2/3rds majority makes sense but basically allows a minority to protect a President by blocking selection of counsel. Perhaps a simple majority with Supreme Court needing to approve if 2/3rds not reached. I would require a special counsel investigation unless articles of impeachment are approved without other inquiry by 2/3rds majority.

Similarly, would like the House to dictate ahead of time the scope of the counsel investigation, with any leads suggesting divergence from that scope requiring the same 2/3rds majority/Supreme Court oversight to modify scope.

Would require special counsel to render opinion on whether evidence of violation of federal criminal code exists which would suggest presentation to Grand jury if not president but clearly indicate that the House still has the power to pursue impeachment for offenses which aren't specifically criminal.

Would codify phases of House Impeachment as follows:
1. Presentation of special counsel findings, questioning of counsel
2. Judiciary committee hearings including legal experts with Chief Justice presiding to enforce rules of House in questioning witnesses and ensuring all witnesses are pertinent. The goal of this hearing will be, if committee deems appropriate, to define the potential articles of impeachment offenses, burden of proof at trial, and criteria to meet such offenses (e.g. mirroring criminal code but can be different if committee decides even if a specific criminal statute applies)
3. Witness questioning phase/collection/presentation of evidence, debate thereof with Chief Justice presiding and having all decisions on whether witness or questions are material to proposed articles. At the end, ability for any member to request judiciary committee to consider additional article of impeachment
4. Judiciary committee vote firstly to consider new positions then repeat of steps 2+3 if approved but limited to the newly suggested articles
5. Judiciary committee to prepare and approve full articles to House
6. Full House debate/vote

Many additional thoughts and of course need to address Senate hearing, but even putting this much in writing is taking a while. Hopefully can readdress soon.
 
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[DHT]Osiris

Lifer
Dec 15, 2015
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What powers would the SCOTUS have for any house/senate proceedings which weren't followed? Arrest until shenanigans stop? Hold until proceedings are complete?
 

fskimospy

Elite Member
Mar 10, 2006
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I think the main issue here is that I don’t think any of these changes would actually alter the outcome of events with Trump. The issue here isn’t that there isn’t a codified process, it’s that one party doesn’t care. This could make them go through some additional procedural motions but it wouldn’t fix the problem.
 

[DHT]Osiris

Lifer
Dec 15, 2015
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I think the main issue here is that I don’t think any of these changes would actually alter the outcome of events with Trump. The issue here isn’t that there isn’t a codified process, it’s that one party doesn’t care. This could make them go through some additional procedural motions but it wouldn’t fix the problem.
If the SCOTUS could actually remove members from the proceedings that stated on national TV that they don't intend to be impartial, that might smack a few back in line.
 

fskimospy

Elite Member
Mar 10, 2006
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If the SCOTUS could actually remove members from the proceedings that stated on national TV that they don't intend to be impartial, that might smack a few back in line.
Yeah but do you think that would lead them to actually do their job or to just not admit they weren’t going to on TV?

There is no set of rules that can be made which will make democracy work unless all parties are at least somewhat invested in making the process work. The issue here is that one party is no longer interested.

By the way I have no fix for this so I appreciate the OP attempting one, I guess I’m just pessimistic as to its likelihood of success.
 

[DHT]Osiris

Lifer
Dec 15, 2015
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Yeah but do you think that would lead them to actually do their job or to just not admit they weren’t going to on TV?
I'd consider it a start even if they stopped talking about it. It reduces how polarizing it is, which means the base is charged less, which means the politicians have less of a burden to follow-through if they feel their position is at risk due to the base. The whole thing is a feedback loop that leads to our existing insanity, and it's enabled by instantaneous mass communication.
 

[DHT]Osiris

Lifer
Dec 15, 2015
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In fact, let's go one step further. Disallow members of the House and Senate speaking with the media regarding the impeachment proceedings, outside of the actual press releases to include charges, investigation progress, etc. Any complaints about individual members acting outside of good faith can be brought before the SCOTUS to review, and those individuals can face action (censure, expulsion, arrest, whatever).
 

fskimospy

Elite Member
Mar 10, 2006
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In fact, let's go one step further. Disallow members of the House and Senate speaking with the media regarding the impeachment proceedings, outside of the actual press releases to include charges, investigation progress, etc. Any complaints about individual members acting outside of good faith can be brought before the SCOTUS to review, and those individuals can face action (censure, expulsion, arrest, whatever).

So repeal the speech and debate clause? That sounds like a bad idea.
 

HomerJS

Lifer
Feb 6, 2002
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If the SCOTUS could actually remove members from the proceedings that stated on national TV that they don't intend to be impartial, that might smack a few back in line.
I think anything like that would go up for a vote. Unless a few Republicans voted to recuse it won't happen.

However, how can Senators who publicly stated bias vote on their own recusals? Catch-22
 

shortylickens

No Lifer
Jul 15, 2003
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Yeah Trump might be an evil piece of shit who deserves prison time, but the way the Democrats have been handling things they give a strong appearance of this all being a big political stunt. Even if they get him removed from office or fuck up his reelection, theres gonna be political hell to pay for a very long time. The GOP is gonna be combative on every stupid little thing from now until doomsday.
And thats assuming there isnt some trailer park revolt with torches and pitchforks and Fox News plastering Nancy Pelosis home address all over the TV.
 
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fskimospy

Elite Member
Mar 10, 2006
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Yeah Trump might be an evil piece of shit who deserves prison time, but the way the Democrats have been handling things they give a strong appearance of this all being a big political stunt. Even if they get him removed from office or fuck up his reelection, theres gonna be political hell to pay for a very long time. The GOP is gonna be combative on every stupid little thing from now until doomsday.
And thats assuming there isnt some trailer park revolt with torches and pitchforks and Fox News plastering Nancy Pelosis home address all over the TV.

How should they have handled it differently?
 

ch33zw1z

Lifer
Nov 4, 2004
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Yeah Trump might be an evil piece of shit who deserves prison time, but the way the Democrats have been handling things they give a strong appearance of this all being a big political stunt. Even if they get him removed from office or fuck up his reelection, theres gonna be political hell to pay for a very long time. The GOP is gonna be combative on every stupid little thing from now until doomsday.
And thats assuming there isnt some trailer park revolt with torches and pitchforks and Fox News plastering Nancy Pelosis home address all over the TV.

So the GOP will continue being the GOP? Shocking.
 

[DHT]Osiris

Lifer
Dec 15, 2015
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So repeal the speech and debate clause? That sounds like a bad idea.
To clarify, they can still speak and debate among themselves, just don't include the press in the matter and don't permit them to talk about it outside the given proceedings. That wouldn't run afoul of the amendment unless there's something I don't understand about the wording.

"...shall in all Cases, except Treason, Felony and Breach of the Peace, be privileged from Arrest during their attendance at the Session of their Respective Houses, and in going to and from the same; and for any Speech or Debate in either House, they shall not be questioned in any other Place."
 

interchange

Diamond Member
Oct 10, 1999
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I think the main issue here is that I don’t think any of these changes would actually alter the outcome of events with Trump. The issue here isn’t that there isn’t a codified process, it’s that one party doesn’t care. This could make them go through some additional procedural motions but it wouldn’t fix the problem.

I agree. My goal would not be to guarantee that another Trump would end up removed at the end of things. I think the only hope there could be moving impeachment to a purely judicial process, but even though that is a terrible idea having the hope of an impartial jury is really hard to imagine. I could consider a limited ability to prosecute the President or perhaps submit an indictment for prosecution after the end of presidency. That would certainly put pressure on things. But impeachment is a political process. That's the intent. I don't see an inherent problem with that unless we determine that a democratically elected republic is wrong. I do think we can put some limits on the harms incurred by the current Impeachment. And I want emphasize here that I believe it would have been much more harmful not to pursue a proper Impeachment in this case.
 

interchange

Diamond Member
Oct 10, 1999
8,026
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To clarify, they can still speak and debate among themselves, just don't include the press in the matter and don't permit them to talk about it outside the given proceedings. That wouldn't run afoul of the amendment unless there's something I don't understand about the wording.

"...shall in all Cases, except Treason, Felony and Breach of the Peace, be privileged from Arrest during their attendance at the Session of their Respective Houses, and in going to and from the same; and for any Speech or Debate in either House, they shall not be questioned in any other Place."

In a real world correlate, Grand jury testimony is in particular isolated. It's important to keep the defense from being able to corrupt the case/potential trial/witnesses before discovery, to not influence the potential jurors, and to not release evidence against someone who is innocent until proven guilty particularly when many materials may be presented which aren't admissible in the ultimate trial.

This is a lot more complicated, but those kinds of reasons are central to my advocacy that investigation occur always outside of Congress, at least in part. Certainly addresses the bad faith due process arguments of Republicans today.
 
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[DHT]Osiris

Lifer
Dec 15, 2015
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In a real world correlate, Grand jury testimony is in particular isolated. It's important to keep the defense from being able to corrupt the case/potential trial/witnesses before discovery, to not influence the potential jurors, and to not release evidence against someone who is innocent until proven guilty particularly when many materials may be presented which aren't admissible in the ultimate trial.

This is a lot more complicated, but those kinds of reasons are central to my advocacy that investigation occur always outside of Congress, at least in part. Certainly addresses the bad faith due process arguments of Republicans today.
I see what you mean, the investigation itself by nature must include outside entities to avoid it being tainted.
 

Stokely

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Jun 5, 2017
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How should they have handled it differently?

My question also. No matter what, right-wing media would spin things as a "coup" and all the other ridiculous things they are saying. If Democrats are not following guidelines, then I'm curious as to how they went wrong. Not disputing it, it wouldn't surprise me if they f-ed up.

Personally I hate the fact that the WH can simply say "no" that people shouldn't be witnesses, ignore subpoenas etc. I get that the Democrats don't want to get those into court (potentially allowing the GOP to point and say "they need to wait until those court cases--which we are going to drag out forever--are resolved") But it still fricking sucks that they can simply hurt the case against Trump by just ignoring requests for information. It's possible they've already won if they've hamstrung the investigation enough. It's complete horseshit.

The GOP will be combative if the Democrats extend an olive branch or if they try to do their jobs and impeach. Ask Obama how that whole "working together" thing worked out. At some point the Democrats need to learn that the GOP is playing to win, and nice guys finish last when only one side gives a shit about playing nice.
 

dainthomas

Lifer
Dec 7, 2004
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Yeah Trump might be an evil piece of shit who deserves prison time, but the way the Democrats have been handling things they give a strong appearance of this all being a big political stunt. Even if they get him removed from office or fuck up his reelection, theres gonna be political hell to pay for a very long time. The GOP is gonna be combative on every stupid little thing from now until doomsday.
And thats assuming there isnt some trailer park revolt with torches and pitchforks and Fox News plastering Nancy Pelosis home address all over the TV.

So...…..just like the last twenty years?
 

SteveGrabowski

Diamond Member
Oct 20, 2014
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Yeah Trump might be an evil piece of shit who deserves prison time, but the way the Democrats have been handling things they give a strong appearance of this all being a big political stunt. Even if they get him removed from office or fuck up his reelection, theres gonna be political hell to pay for a very long time. The GOP is gonna be combative on every stupid little thing from now until doomsday.
And thats assuming there isnt some trailer park revolt with torches and pitchforks and Fox News plastering Nancy Pelosis home address all over the TV.

The GOP impeached over a blowjob. They're already combative on every stupid little thing.
 
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fskimospy

Elite Member
Mar 10, 2006
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So...…..just like the last twenty years?

Yes, as I saw pointed out on Twitter somewhere the GOP threat to retaliate against the Democrats for this relies on the idea that GOP behavior will get worse. The question is, how exactly would GOP behavior get worse than it already is?
 

HomerJS

Lifer
Feb 6, 2002
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Yeah Trump might be an evil piece of shit who deserves prison time, but the way the Democrats have been handling things they give a strong appearance of this all being a big political stunt. Even if they get him removed from office or fuck up his reelection, theres gonna be political hell to pay for a very long time. The GOP is gonna be combative on every stupid little thing from now until doomsday.
And thats assuming there isnt some trailer park revolt with torches and pitchforks and Fox News plastering Nancy Pelosis home address all over the TV.
I have the same question, how should the Democrats handled it differently?? What were the other options?
 

Sunburn74

Diamond Member
Oct 5, 2009
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I have the same question, how should the Democrats handled it differently?? What were the other options?
It was handled perfectly fine. The issue is the other side is willing to tolerate crimes if it means they stay in power