• Guest, The rules for the P & N subforum have been updated to prohibit "ad hominem" or personal attacks against other posters. See the full details in the post "Politics and News Rules & Guidelines."

AMD's FreeSync and VESA A-Sync discussion

piesquared

Golden Member
Oct 16, 2006
1,651
473
136
http://forums.anandtech.com/showthread.php?t=2393906

For anyone that wants to discuss FreeSync/A-Sync. Looking forward to A-Sync monitor debut shortly. I think it's better to have the industry follow an industry standard rather than a proprietary one.

[edit]
In regards to power savings, I think that will be one of the primary motivators for intel following AMD to adopt A-Sync. They aren't pursuing gaming and their hardware isn't up to the task anyway, but they'll certainly benefit from the power saving features.


Also, because the previous OP of the other thread asked for it to be closed, means no further discussion is allowed? Strange rules.
 
Last edited:

f1sherman

Platinum Member
Apr 5, 2011
2,243
0
0
http://forums.anandtech.com/showthread.php?t=2393906

For anyone that wants to discuss FreeSync/A-Sync. Looking forward to A-Sync monitor debut shortly. I think it's better to have the industry follow an industry standard rather than a proprietary one.

BTW, here's what a moderator who shall remain nameless advised in a private convo when I complained about the Tonga thread being closed.



Also, because the previous OP of the other thread asked for it to be closed, means no further discussion is allowed? Strange rules.

Posting private conversation and moderator callouts>

This can't this go wrong :D
 

piesquared

Golden Member
Oct 16, 2006
1,651
473
136
Posting private conversation and moderator callouts>

This can't this go wrong :D
It was a private convo with me, I'm free to share it. Stick to the topic.


No, You are not free to share private posts from moderators. That is against the rules. Hence the word "Private Message". Good on you to remove it or it would have been an infractable offense.

-Rvenger



edit:
And for future reference, you cannot post PMs from members either, unless both parties agree

http://forums.anandtech.com/showthread.php?t=60552

9) Respect other users' privacy and do not post personal or private information of any other user without their express permission, regardless of the source. This also includes PMs between two or more members. The contents of those PMs cannot be posted in the forum unless all parties agree to it.


esquared
Anandtech Forum Director
 
Last edited by a moderator:

exar333

Diamond Member
Feb 7, 2004
8,518
8
91
Not a lot to talk about, unless considerable documentation has been released in the last few days. I like open standards too, but how do you even form an opinion without any facts? This thread (sadly) will eventually go where the last one did....
 

ocre

Golden Member
Dec 26, 2008
1,594
6
76
OP,

Freesync is not an open standard. Quit spreading misinformation.

The change in the DP standard (adaptive sync), well just focusing on it--let's be clear about it. Vesa brought a capability of the eDP spec to the desktop. Its been a part of the eDP since 2009.

Also AMD claimed very boldly that nvidia HW did not have the capabilities built in to use the spec as AMD claims they can. So if nvidia can't use it, that their HW is not capable as AMD claims, it makes claims that Intel will use it pretty strange. Remember, Intel licensing agreement for nvidia IP? Saying Intel will use it is making stuff up

So to sum things up, are you or are you not wanting to discuss freesync and a-sync in the boundaries of what it is or actually means at this point.
Or will it be just fabricating and inventing as you see fit?


The truth on freesync. It's AMDs answer to gsync. AMD will try to offer up their version. The route they chose required a special function of the eDP standard which is why they have to move that capability over to the desktop standard. Vesa complied and now there is an optional extension to called DisplayPort 1.2a. It may or may not be a requirement of display port 1.3.

AMD alone has claimed to be able to make use of this feature in a special way mimicking gsync. Not only are they the only ones who say they can do this, they also give credence to the fact that they are special in their ability, that even nvidia does not have the capabilities built into their chips to use the function as AMD can and thus why nvidia created gsync.

So if you are all about open standards, freesync is anything but. As a compelling AMD alternative to gsync, it sounds promising. But all this other made up, make believe stuff would be better left out of the discussion. All the vendor lock in scare tactics while praising freesync is quite bizarre. It is misdirection with or without intent. Freesync does not, in no way does it free anyone from a vendor lock. For the special capability, for a gsync like experience freesync monitors are a vendor lock to AMD HW. Too say it is not is a lie else I challenge you to provide proof of who is using freesync other than AMD. Saying they will based on nothing is not acceptable. AMD says you will need an AMD gpu and that nvidia does not even have the capability built into their chips.

If we can refrain from all the hogwash and unfounded made up stuff I would love to discuss freesync. I hope it is at least as good as nvidia's because if nothing else it gives AMD users a comparable product. It gives AMD the ability to offer a comparable product.
But this is just my hopes on the subject, we have no real reviews on it. But I can't wait and hope for the best/
 
Last edited:

Flapdrol1337

Golden Member
May 21, 2014
1,677
93
91
The difference is that gsync is an implementation, while adaptive sync and freesync are specifications.

The gsync module has some memory, using the previous frame(s?) for overdrive calculations, to get the fastest possible refresh. It's possible to do something like that with adaptive sync/freesync, but not required. Most likely there will be screens without overdrive at more conservative refreshrates first, should be good, as they'll be a fraction of the rog swift price and probably "good enough".

Hopefully nvidia makes a gsync module that doesn't use the ridiculous fpga soon, so the screens can come down in price.
 

ocre

Golden Member
Dec 26, 2008
1,594
6
76
What?

Freesync is a what?

Seriously?

That is ridiculous
Freesync is an implantation.......in every single....
Nevermind
There is no point in addressing such complete utter nonsense
 

AtenRa

Lifer
Feb 2, 2009
13,599
2,690
126
Just because current hardware doesnt support Adaptive Sync doesnt mean future hardware cannot as well.

Since Adaptive Sync is an open standard anyone can use it, that means that A-sync (or whatever name there will be called) monitors will be able to work with more than AMDs hardware.
 

Flapdrol1337

Golden Member
May 21, 2014
1,677
93
91
If amd's marketing is correct the "freesync" is just the amd driver and gpu side of things, it shouldn't have anything to do with the hardware in the monitor. And if you're not going to adress it just dont post.
 

MeldarthX

Golden Member
May 8, 2010
1,026
0
76
Right as this got lost in the other one I'll post it again.

from OCUK....

Hello Everyone,

After receiving numerous replies and questions about my recent post titled: AMD: FAQ for Project FreeSync is up I thought it would be helpful to have my colleague Robert Hallock (a.k.a. Thracks) hold a Q & A Session with everyone here. As some of you may know Robert has played a critical role in Project FreeSync and is the author of the FAQ.

Hence, I’d like to invite you to join me and Robert Hallock on Friday, August 22 at 06:00PM (UK Time)/11:00AM (US Time) for the Q & A Session.

The session will last for one hour. We will do our very best to answer your questions during the session; as such please wait for the session to start before posting your questions.

The name of the thread will be: “AMD Project FreeSync: Q & A with Robert Hallock”. I will start the thread approximately one hour before we start.

Meanwhile, please check out the existing FAQ as we have updated some of its content already.

http://forums.overclockers.co.uk/showthread.php?t=18618971

There should be hopefully some good questions and answers on FreeSync.....
 

Leadbox

Senior member
Oct 25, 2010
744
63
91
Right as this got lost in the other one I'll post it again.

from OCUK....

Hello Everyone,

After receiving numerous replies and questions about my recent post titled: AMD: FAQ for Project FreeSync is up I thought it would be helpful to have my colleague Robert Hallock (a.k.a. Thracks) hold a Q & A Session with everyone here. As some of you may know Robert has played a critical role in Project FreeSync and is the author of the FAQ.

Hence, I’d like to invite you to join me and Robert Hallock on Friday, August 22 at 06:00PM (UK Time)/11:00AM (US Time) for the Q & A Session.

The session will last for one hour. We will do our very best to answer your questions during the session; as such please wait for the session to start before posting your questions.

The name of the thread will be: “AMD Project FreeSync: Q & A with Robert Hallock”. I will start the thread approximately one hour before we start.

Meanwhile, please check out the existing FAQ as we have updated some of its content already.

http://forums.overclockers.co.uk/showthread.php?t=18618971

There should be hopefully some good questions and answers on FreeSync.....
PcPer has a Q&A with Tom Petersen scheduled an hour before this. Adaptive sync is bound to come for discussion, looking forward to both events.
 

BrightCandle

Diamond Member
Mar 15, 2007
4,762
0
76
As long as AMD is unable to show Freesync there are no "answers".
I don't think that is true. They can absolutely talk about how it works, how it deals with overdrive and what happens in various edge case circumstances like frame rates stuttering around the minimum mark and what they intend to do about that. There are plenty of answers they could provide about the technology that are all absolutely reasonable things to talk about around the technology. I for example want to hear about how they intend monitors to signal their support for varied refresh with the vblank length being the decider on the frames and then what the monitor does about image decay. Heck their are loads of things to talk about around Freesync, because they haven't actually said much about the technology at all other than "its like gsync but free". Except its not free and its not like gsync at all, because for one the GPU is in charge of when images are displayed on the monitor, in gsync its the monitor that renders and that makes a big difference at minimum refresh rates. Which brings up if AMD intends to keep a buffer around for resend to implement GPU driven PSR or is something else going on. I can think of so many questions because of the lack of technical detail.

But if all they intend to do is throw more mud at their competitors product and keep saying theirs is better without ever having shown their technology working, well then such a Q&A really wont be much use to anyone and it will just end up being more marketing that gets us no where. Personally I would rather buy a 290 and have Freesync, which is basically about the same price as a gsync panel! But AMD point blank refuses to tell us anything useful about the technology, instead they just keep talking about propriety verses free/standards and a load of other junk that says nothing about if its any good!
 
Last edited:

Mand

Senior member
Jan 13, 2014
664
0
0
Here are the questions I would ask, if I were able (I made an account, but not sure if it'll get through their approval process in time for the Q&A):

"Can you provide a demonstration that clearly and visibly demonstrates FreeSync changing individual frame time intervals in response to a varying frame time output from the GPU?"

"What hardware developments are being included in FreeSync-capable monitors?"

"What technical functions does this hardware perform that allows for synchronized frame-by-frame varying of the refresh interval with the GPU?"

"What actions is the GPU taking in order to perform synchronized frame-by-frame varying of the refresh interval?"

"What is your reasoning for an expected bill of materials cost in the $10-$20 range?"

"What is the status of your hardware partnerships? Why have none been announced?"
 

Leadbox

Senior member
Oct 25, 2010
744
63
91
Here are the questions I would ask, if I were able (I made an account, but not sure if it'll get through their approval process in time for the Q&A):

"Can you provide a demonstration that clearly and visibly demonstrates FreeSync changing individual frame time intervals in response to a varying frame time output from the GPU?"

"What hardware developments are being included in FreeSync-capable monitors?"

"What technical functions does this hardware perform that allows for synchronized frame-by-frame varying of the refresh interval with the GPU?"

"What actions is the GPU taking in order to perform synchronized frame-by-frame varying of the refresh interval?"

"What is your reasoning for an expected bill of materials cost in the $10-$20 range?"

"What is the status of your hardware partnerships? Why have none been announced?"
It's a Q&A with a couple of marketing guys, not the lead engineer or someone like that, good luck getting convincing answers to some of those questions.
 

96Firebird

Diamond Member
Nov 8, 2010
5,653
272
126
It's a Q&A with a couple of marketing guys, not the lead engineer or someone like that, good luck getting convincing answers to some of those questions.
Well that sucks, not really interested in the Q&A anymore... :\
 

Mand

Senior member
Jan 13, 2014
664
0
0
His official title is "Technical Communications Officer."

It doesn't hurt to ask.
 

Mand

Senior member
Jan 13, 2014
664
0
0
I mean, are my hopes high? Not really. But if they dodge questions in a Q&A, then that's an answer in itself is it not?
 

MeldarthX

Golden Member
May 8, 2010
1,026
0
76
I see a problem with one of your questions already Mand; there won't be any free-sync monitors......ever.....

Now if you asked about adaptive sync monitors......;) Freesync is how AMD is doing it on their cards; with drivers........Adaptive sync is the standard in 1.2a......

Now I'd love to know; while its not manditory in 1.2a dp; will it become manditory in 1.3 :) rumors are it will be
 

Mand

Senior member
Jan 13, 2014
664
0
0
I'm fully aware of the nomenclature involved, and I asked my questions very specifically.

And no, I can't see how it can possibly be mandatory. To do that, they would have had to get every display manufacturer, every tcon manufacturer on board with it. They've had precisely zero indication that they've done that, and a few rather strong pieces of evidence that the hardware vendors are taking a more "wait and see" approach to it rather than a "we're all on board immediately" approach. It can't be mandatory in that case.
 

KingFatty

Diamond Member
Dec 29, 2010
3,034
1
81
Freesync does not, in no way does it free anyone from a vendor lock. For the special capability, for a gsync like experience freesync monitors are a vendor lock to AMD HW. Too say it is not is a lie else I challenge you to provide proof of who is using freesync other than AMD.
I just want to clarify what vendor lock-in is:
\http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vendor_lock-in

In economics, vendor lock-in, also known as proprietary lock-in or customer lock-in, makes a customer dependent on a vendor for products and services, unable to use another vendor without substantial switching costs. Lock-in costs which create barriers to market entry may result in antitrust action against a monopoly.
I think many of the lock-in arguments depend on whether you consider the lock-in as coming from the vendor, vs. as coming from the market.

For example, the argument quoted above relies on the current situation of not being able to obtain the feature from anyone else except AMD. However, I'm not sure the current situation satisfies the definition of "making" the consumer dependent (i.e., forcing them).

But will that remain forever? Is there something here that is preventing other vendors from using the tech - can AMD somehow block Intel or NVidia from using it?

My feeling is that, lock-in turns on whether others are blocked from using something. But I can see Ocre's point, that Intel and Nvidia don't currently support this open standard, so you have a "de facto" lock-in.

It would require speculation to say that an open standard would be used by Intel or Nvidia, to where the consumer would have a choice.

But maybe I'm missing something - is there something blocking them from using it, or is it just the current conditions where they aren't using it and nothing is stopping them?
 

ASK THE COMMUNITY