AMD: Why don't you release your chipsets' datasheets?

[lopri]

I have a feeling that it's going to be an exercise in frustration, but I'll let it out anyway.

If I go to Intel's site, I can find incredibly well organized and updated documents (be it about design, thermal specifications, or errata) for its chipsets. Server chipsets, client chipsets, and mobile chipsets are all well documented and they are not just for recent ones. You can go all the way back to chipsets of 10 years ago.

If I go to AMD's site, there is exactly ZERO technical document explaining ins and outs of its chipsets. Of course I don't expect nForce datasheets, but AMD has now top to bottom line up of its own chipsets for both client and servers. (not sure about mobile)

I assume they exist - well, they must exist so that AMD's partners and board manufacturers can make products supporting AMD CPUs. But why aren't they published? How is one supposed to go about it if s/he wants to know how they work? All I can find are stupid marketing stuff that were published at the product launches. Often grossly exaggerated - again, marketing.

Why don't/can't publish your chipsets datasheets, AMD?

 

[tcsenter]

Old grievance...which will receive no attention from AMD here.

 

[ModestGamer]

Why won't microsoft publish source code ?

 

[Modelworks]

Why won't microsoft publish source code ?

It isn't the same thing, not by a long ways.

What the OP ran into is IP agreement issues. Some of the semiconductor companies like to play secretive when it comes to datasheets. Often there is no need for it but its an old policy that still in force with some companies. For example Micron has flash chips where the datasheet is not available publicly, but you can go to other producers of the same chip and get the datasheet easily, and there are 0 differences in the parts.

Usually you need to contact the sales department and inquire what you need to do to get the datasheet. Most of the time it is as simple as sending them your name , address, phone, and why you are interested. Some I think do it to collect data while others do it so they know who provided the information if you happen to leak something you shouldn't.

The exception is products involving security, DRM, or highly proprietary systems. Some examples are :
Broadcom - makers of chips used in cable and satellite boxes - no access because of theft of signal by pirates.
Sigma Designs - makers of chips for bluray - no access because of DRM
Dolby labs - license chips for dolby digital surround , they want to keep quality control over products produced using it and require license fees.

 

[coolVariable]

AMD: why don't you release drivers that actually work?
(much more important IMO)

 

[ModestGamer]

what is the difference ? Obviously AMD feels that the chipsets they make are best protected by NDA's.

If you don't wish to buy products from a company that protects its intelectual property. Don't.

It isn't the same thing, not by a long ways.

What the OP ran into is IP agreement issues. Some of the semiconductor companies like to play secretive when it comes to datasheets. Often there is no need for it but its an old policy that still in force with some companies. For example Micron has flash chips where the datasheet is not available publicly, but you can go to other producers of the same chip and get the datasheet easily, and there are 0 differences in the parts.

Usually you need to contact the sales department and inquire what you need to do to get the datasheet. Most of the time it is as simple as sending them your name , address, phone, and why you are interested. Some I think do it to collect data while others do it so they know who provided the information if you happen to leak something you shouldn't.

The exception is products involving security, DRM, or highly proprietary systems. Some examples are :
Broadcom - makers of chips used in cable and satellite boxes - no access because of theft of signal by pirates.
Sigma Designs - makers of chips for bluray - no access because of DRM
Dolby labs - license chips for dolby digital surround , they want to keep quality control over products produced using it and require license fees.

 

[tcsenter]

Nobody puts sensitive IP into datasheets. e.g. Intel has done great public datasheets for 20 years but nobody is producing knock-off Intel chipsets based on the information gleaned from them. They can keep the potentially exploitable IP out of them.

VIA used to do datasheets but ceased around the time of 586B/686A. AMD still does very decent datasheets (though lacking compared to Intel) for CPUs, just not for chipsets.

Its about control, pleasing your customers (not end-users), and apathy.

 

[BTRY B 529th FA BN]

F U AMD show us your God-Dang Data Sheets!!!!

 

[ModestGamer]

Actually the data sheets are usually fundemental in reverse engineering. Once you have Pin I/O and a good image of the silicon. you can do alot with that info.

Nobody puts sensitive IP into datasheets. e.g. Intel has done great public datasheets for 20 years but nobody is producing knock-off Intel chipsets based on the information gleaned from them. They can keep the potentially exploitable IP out of them.

VIA used to do datasheets but ceased around the time of 586B/686A. AMD still does very decent datasheets (though lacking compared to Intel) for CPUs, just not for chipsets.

Its about control, pleasing your customers (not end-users), and apathy.

 

[tcsenter]

Actually the data sheets are usually fundemental in reverse engineering. Once you have Pin I/O and a good image of the silicon. you can do alot with that info.

No, they're not. Any entity with the small army of engineering staff that is required to reverse engineer complex integrated circuits can easily infer or deduce nearly all the pin-outs and their characteristics from compliance with IC packaging standards, the implementation on a PCB, collateral SMC and circuitry, and diagnostic equipment such as bus analyzers and scopes.

i.e. I can tell you what many pins on a chipset do just by tracing them to standardized interfaces or device chips, and I don't have an engineering degree. Not even a crappy one.

Sure, datasheets are a nice cheat sheet that saves some time and money but are hardly "fundamental" in reverse engineering effort.

 

[ModestGamer]

No, they're not. Any entity with the small army of engineering staff that is required to reverse engineer complex integrated circuits can easily infer or deduce nearly all the pin-outs and their characteristics from compliance with IC packaging standards, the implementation on a PCB, collateral SMC and circuitry, and diagnostic equipment such as bus analyzers and scopes.

i.e. I can tell you what many pins on a chipset do just by tracing them to standardized interfaces or device chips, and I don't have an engineering degree. Not even a crappy one.

Sure, datasheets are a nice cheat sheet that saves some time and money but are hardly "fundamental" in reverse engineering effort.

Depends on the functionality of the chip. If it acts like a microcontroller and not a rambus. Well things ar very different. If it has firmware learning how to read and decrypt it is important as well.

Obviously AMD feels they are protecting their intelectual property. If you don't like that.

don't buy AMD. Buy nvidia or Intel.
the choice is pretty simple.

 

[Modelworks]

what is the difference ? Obviously AMD feels that the chipsets they make are best protected by NDA's.

The difference is huge. When you remove source code from software you are stopping people from copying the software. When you remove datasheets from electronics you prevent anyone but a select few from bringing even more money into your company. It is why there are thousands and thousands of datasheets out there for download and most companies will almost pay you to download them and take a look. It leads to sales. Most companies even give away the chips for free to people interested in just taking a look.

What a datasheet provides is not the information on how to re-create the product. Most only provide information on things like power and how to interface with the chips and use them in your own hardware designs. They do not include things like the specific die patterns or anything close. If you are lucky they have a block diagram of what happens inside but it doesn't get much lower level than that.

People that would reverse engineer a chip don't need datasheets. They already have the millions of dollars in equipment necessary to do the job.

If you don't wish to buy products from a company that protects its intelectual property. Don't.

I already have access to Amd/Intel/Freescale/Arm/Motorola and about 20 other sites data sheets and I can tell you this. The reason amd is not putting their information where the public can read it has ZERO to do with worry that someone will steal it. Its internal politics at work.

 

[lopri]

Someone has a very strange logic, let alone nasty attitude.

Do I want to read G31/GMA4500 datasheets? No, because I'm not interested in them (G31 or GMA4500).
Do I want to read X58, RS5690, SB850 datasheets? Yes, because I'm interested in them and products that are based on those chips.

If anything, I want an access to the datasheets precisely because I want to buy those products, make better use of them, or have a better understanding of them. I am sure AMD will provide chipset datasheets to, say, Alienware or ASUS if they want to buy them and build products?

I am not an OEM or a big system builder, but I like technology and the value provided by AMD's products. IP Protection? Others have already explained in that regard, but seriously what IP protection would be needed? AMD has to give the datasheets away to those who want to deploy its chipsets, which directly relates to their sales. And there are a lot of AMD products out there. (I suppose I don't need to count all the OEMs, motherboard makers, system builders, etc.) The datasheets can't be that much of secret when so many already have them. And AMD does provide its CPUs' datasheets to the public as has been mentioned.

Have some common sense (and manners).

 

[ModestGamer]

The difference is huge. When you remove source code from software you are stopping people from copying the software. When you remove datasheets from electronics you prevent anyone but a select few from bringing even more money into your company. It is why there are thousands and thousands of datasheets out there for download and most companies will almost pay you to download them and take a look. It leads to sales. Most companies even give away the chips for free to people interested in just taking a look.

What a datasheet provides is not the information on how to re-create the product. Most only provide information on things like power and how to interface with the chips and use them in your own hardware designs. They do not include things like the specific die patterns or anything close. If you are lucky they have a block diagram of what happens inside but it doesn't get much lower level than that.

People that would reverse engineer a chip don't need datasheets. They already have the millions of dollars in equipment necessary to do the job.

I already have access to Amd/Intel/Freescale/Arm/Motorola and about 20 other sites data sheets and I can tell you this. The reason amd is not putting their information where the public can read it has ZERO to do with worry that someone will steal it. Its internal politics at work.

same reason chrysler sues anyone who hacks ECU's.

It is totally about IP and nothing else.

Your making some sort of bizaro world analogy to internal politics.

What internal politics beside a very overly concerned IP issue could drive this.

I know. CEO's wake up and think

Hey how can we fuck with a bunch of know nothing enthuasits who don't work with our products but want to endlessly peruse our data sheets as if the red sea will part and the ten commandmnets will fly outta moses ass's.

With AMD data sheets on the back.

It is entirely about IP protection. Nothing more.

Its not a giant fucking conspiracy to keep you from sitting up at all hours of the night pineing over data sheets.

Take the tin foil off your head.

Drink a scoth on the rocks.

Get a grip.

you can't reverse engineer without knowing where a few pins are. unless you want to run insystem but you can cook the hardware.

 

[Modelworks]

same reason chrysler sues anyone who hacks ECU's.

It is totally about IP and nothing else.

Your making some sort of bizaro world analogy to internal politics.

What internal politics beside a very overly concerned IP issue could drive this.

And you know not of what you speak. It has to do more with marketing than any fear of IP. Just about anyone willing to take the time to follow the steps can get them. You don't need any credentials or special permission. How is that going to stop theft of IP if anyone with 30 minutes of time can get them ?

I know. CEO's wake up and think

Hey how can we fuck with a bunch of know nothing enthuasits who don't work with our products but want to endlessly peruse our data sheets as if the red sea will part and the ten commandmnets will fly outta moses ass's.

The CEO wake up and think how can we get more people to buy our products and handing out datasheets accomplishes that. How do you know everyone that wants them are enthusiast. Do you know how many EE students download datasheets daily ? Ever read a cpu datasheet. There is nothing in there that someone not into electronics would even care to read. It is boring stuff and very very monotonous.

you can't reverse engineer without knowing where a few pins are. unless you want to run insystem but you can cook the hardware.

All you need to know is where the VCC and VSS are. The rest you can reverse. Done it many many times.

 

[Modelworks]

If anything, I want an access to the datasheets precisely because I want to buy those products, make better use of them, or have a better understanding of them. I am sure AMD will provide chipset datasheets to, say, Alienware or ASUS if they want to buy them and build products?

What you need to do is use the amd developer site. Contact the sales department and request the information. They will email you a form to fill out. It isn't an NDA but more a name/address, why do you want them, are you developing a product, what do you think the sales would be on said product, etc. Just tell them you are a hobbyist with interest in the hardware. They want the info so they can get sales to followup with people that might be potential customers. But if you just tell them you are hobbyist they approve password to the download and ask that you not distribute them , that allows them to keep adding to their sales database.

Arm, microchip, verilog and lots of others do the same thing.

 

[lopri]

Thank you, Modelworks, for the suggestion. I will give it a try. I appreciate it very much.

P.S. I love your avatar. Where can I find it? Are there more (similar)?

 

[tcsenter]

same reason chrysler sues anyone who hacks ECU's. It is entirely about IP protection. Nothing more.

IP protection is a massively broad umbrella that can cover "proprietary" information with no value whatsoever as a protected trade secret, all the way to an extremely valuable technology.

If you mean "IP protection" as in "we have absolutely nothing to fear from releasing this information because it CANNOT be used to misappropriate our technology or harm our competitiveness in any way, but we're still not going to do it because we don't feel like it", then I completely agree its about "IP protection".

Intel does it. Every first-tier DRAM manufacturer releases datasheets for their DRAM products. Many other companies do it and its not harming them at all. The difference between them and those who don't is internal political attitudes that favor a culture of apathy or indifference toward the benefits.

And because it can cause embarrassment for vendors who fail to properly implement things. e.g. I've had a motherboard company claim that a certain DRAM configuration/technology could not be not supported "due to chipset limitation" but the chipset datasheet proved the DRAM configuration/technology was indeed supported. Other motherboards with the same chipset were supporting the DRAM configuration just fine. Other people have used datasheets to prove that a motherboard company was incorrectly programming the chipset through the BIOS, causing a bug or glitch the company had previously denied any responsibility for.

How embarrassing for the vendor. This can be prevented by ensuring there is an information blackout on the technical features, leaving only the "marketing" information by the vendor.

 

[MegaWorks]

Here's your data sheet "the 890FX is a bulldozer chipset".

 

[VirtualLarry]

Nobody puts sensitive IP into datasheets. e.g. Intel has done great public datasheets for 20 years but nobody is producing knock-off Intel chipsets based on the information gleaned from them. They can keep the potentially exploitable IP out of them.

I'm not so sure that's true. Virtual PC emulators emulate the 440BX chipset, and an S3 graphics card, precisely because their datasheets were available down to that level of detail.

 

[Modelworks]

I'm not so sure that's true. Virtual PC emulators emulate the 440BX chipset, and an S3 graphics card, precisely because their datasheets were available down to that level of detail.

The more market friendly companies tend to release the IP of older hardware quite often. They contribute it in the hopes it will help others learn. The hardware is usually so old like the BX chipset that it no longer is valued IP.

 

[MrDudeMan]

I'm not speaking for Intel, but I work on analog I/O design of an Intel chipset as my job. I am actually responsible for writing what is presented in datasheets that are meant to be released to other companies and the public.

There is no possible way the circuits I design could be reverse engineered to work even close to the same or better simply by examining them with a probe of any sort. You literally need hundreds of engineers and millions of dollars to make these things work. Also, none of the really important parts of the design ever make it into anything public. The secrets are in the manufacturing, not the slew rates and drive strengths of I/O buffers.

I don't know why AMD doesn't release datasheets. The easier it is to find documentation for a certain bus or peripheral the more likely I am as an analog designer to recommend using it. It is conceivable that I could give or take millions of dollars from a company just by choosing or not choosing their product. It is in their best interest to give me the specifications of their products since I am literally designing the chipset I/O.