Question AMD Rembrandt/Zen 3+ APU Speculation and Discussion

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uzzi38

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Raphael might come to laptops before Phoenix. I can think of many OEMs wanting to jump ahead, if this leak is to be believed. Likely ADL-P will face some Zen 4 laptops in 2022 itself.

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In a world where thin and light laptops are becoming the most popular - even in the gaming laptop space - you think OEMs are going to by vying for high power chips like that?

Raphael-H seems very much to me like the kind of chip you'd see in low volume premium devices like the Zephyrus duo etc. Irrelevant designs.

The way I see it the main volume in terms of gaming laptops is in thin and lighter designs. Legion style laptops being on the higher end of the scale, the lower end being the new 13 and 14" categories Renoir and Cezanne paved the way for. Raphael doesn't fit into either well enough to be worth using over Rembrandt/Phoenix.

And it doesn't matter anyway. The way I see it, Rembrandt in particular is AMD's most competitive mobile chip till date bar none in terms of the range of markets it is simply the best option for.
 

jpiniero

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moinmoin

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In a world where thin and light laptops are becoming the most popular - even in the gaming laptop space - you think OEMs are going to by vying for high power chips like that?

Raphael-H seems very much to me like the kind of chip you'd see in low volume premium devices like the Zephyrus duo etc. Irrelevant designs.

The way I see it the main volume in terms of gaming laptops is in thin and lighter designs. Legion style laptops being on the higher end of the scale, the lower end being the new 13 and 14" categories Renoir and Cezanne paved the way for. Raphael doesn't fit into either well enough to be worth using over Rembrandt/Phoenix.

And it doesn't matter anyway. The way I see it, Rembrandt in particular is AMD's most competitive mobile chip till date bar none in terms of the range of markets it is simply the best option for.
DTR are the desktop replacements, the area where Intel shows how much performance is possible in a pseudo mobile form factor. Raphael-H will be AMD's contribution to that race, allowing AMD to take some of that niche but vociferous hype. Rembrandt and later Phoenix of course will be the big volume parts that actually matter.
 

tomatosummit

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In a world where thin and light laptops are becoming the most popular - even in the gaming laptop space - you think OEMs are going to by vying for high power chips like that?

Raphael-H seems very much to me like the kind of chip you'd see in low volume premium devices like the Zephyrus duo etc. Irrelevant designs.

The way I see it the main volume in terms of gaming laptops is in thin and lighter designs. Legion style laptops being on the higher end of the scale, the lower end being the new 13 and 14" categories Renoir and Cezanne paved the way for. Raphael doesn't fit into either well enough to be worth using over Rembrandt/Phoenix.

And it doesn't matter anyway. The way I see it, Rembrandt in particular is AMD's most competitive mobile chip till date bar none in terms of the range of markets it is simply the best option for.
It's expanding oem options and amd's target market.
As it is right now rembrandt has probably already lost cpu performance to the 6+8 alderlake cpus and intel is even introducing a 55w 8+8 mobile cpu. There is also now apple in the game with m1pro/max.

Raph-H will give oems a real choice for dtr style workstations, there were a few 1700 and 3900 in laptops already and this is amd making an official sku now there's an igpu in the mix.
Rembrandt and raphael will be very complementary.
 
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mikk

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Nothing is "off" about my post.

I use an i7-11370H but configured for 30 W PL1 and 51 W PL2 with DDR4-3200. So close to what your typical laptops with -U series CPUs are configured. I typically score 1400-1450 points in Time Spy Graphics. Notebookcheck corroborates my experience - with 1400-1600 score being most common, the higher scores coming from laptops configured with LPDDR4x. The highest score of 1819 comes from an MSI Prestige EVO, which is configured like a -H series part with 36 W PL1 and 64 W PL2, against Intel spec for PL1 of 28 W.


So if 2700 is your typical Rembrandt score, then it'll be almost 2x faster than your typical Iris Xe G7 96 EU in Time Spy, and much faster than that in actual games.

Overall or graphics score? If it's the graphics score please give me the source because it makes a difference. If someone shares a timespy score it's usually the overall score unless it's explicitly stated otherwise.

And what memory did Rembrandt use to reach 2700 points, did it use DDR4-3200 as well or did it use DDR5 or even LPDDR5 or how do you know it's typical? Memory has a big impact on iGPU performance.

By the way the MSI Prestige EVO you are refer to uses an i7-1195G7 where the iGPU clocks 100 Mhz higher and it uses LPDDR4x-4266 as well, that's why it's quite a bit faster. Over 25W it makes very little difference in timespy graphics, don't blame the power.
 

rainy

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Mikk, it seems to me, you're quite a bit frustrated by the fact, that Rembrandt will beat Tiger Lake by a big margin in terms of IGP performance, which should be not surprising if remember about switching from Vega architecture to RDNA 2 and of course higher bandwidth memory.
 

uzzi38

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It's expanding oem options and amd's target market.
As it is right now rembrandt has probably already lost cpu performance to the 6+8 alderlake cpus and intel is even introducing a 55w 8+8 mobile cpu. There is also now apple in the game with m1pro/max.

Raph-H will give oems a real choice for dtr style workstations, there were a few 1700 and 3900 in laptops already and this is amd making an official sku now there's an igpu in the mix.
Rembrandt and raphael will be very complementary.
You think the CPU is a straight up loss? Heh.

8+8 is irrelevant for the same reasons Raphael-H is irrelevant. Nobody cares about desktop replacements, they're a shrinking niche market.
 

uzzi38

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DTR are the desktop replacements, the area where Intel shows how much performance is possible in a pseudo mobile form factor. Raphael-H will be AMD's contribution to that race, allowing AMD to take some of that niche but vociferous hype. Rembrandt and later Phoenix of course will be the big volume parts that actually matter.
That's exactly my point, DTRs don't matter. They're a shrinking niche market.
 

uzzi38

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tomatosummit

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You think the CPU is a straight up loss? Heh.

8+8 is irrelevant for the same reasons Raphael-H is irrelevant. Nobody cares about desktop replacements, they're a shrinking niche market.
I didn't say it's a straight up loss but it's going to be losing in places. 15w my money is on rembrandt and above that it's might start to swing alderlake's way.
Anyway there is a large enough segment for 35w-45w+ laptop cpus and mostly paired with dgpus. Be it dtr, gaming or portable workstations, it's apple's fault everyone else tries to make high performance laptops with tiny chassis and terrible cooling as well.
At 45w 16 zen4 cores are going to trounce 8 cache reduced zen3 cores, even with some loss from an IO die.

I don't think anyone's saying raph-H will be super high volume, most stuff is still going to be rembrandt.
 

Spicy

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ADL-P 8+8 and Raphael-H 16c have a tiny iGPU. They need dGPU. I hope there will also be Rembrandt H, without dgpu.

It's interesting to know that Raphael mobile were planned since at least March 2020. I only heard Raphael-H recently.

edit: sorry, I meant Phoenix-H, not RMB-H, since Raphael-H is the next generation to come along with Phoenix-U (at least).
 
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mikk

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Mikk, it seems to me, you're quite a bit frustrated by the fact, that Rembrandt will beat Tiger Lake by a big margin in terms of IGP performance, which should be not surprising if remember about switching from Vega architecture to RDNA 2 and of course higher bandwidth memory.

You clearly don't like what I wrote which is expected in this thread, however you should try to post something more valuable at least. This and your last response to me was a typical ...boy post.
 

scineram

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You think the CPU is a straight up loss? Heh.

8+8 is irrelevant for the same reasons Raphael-H is irrelevant. Nobody cares about desktop replacements, they're a shrinking niche market.
Of course it is. I have seen enough benchmarks, GLC is a monster. With the halved L3 Rembrandt is a low to mid range competitor.
 
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ahimsa42

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soresu

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Renoir Vega iGPU, it is not the same poor old Desktop GPU Vega but again very similar story.If Renoir/Cezanne could use DDR5, iGPU performance would be much better=more FPS.
I know, I was talking about Raven Ridge to Cezanne anyway.

I kinda think AMD adopted a bit of ARM Ltd like design strategy in just upgrading bits per APU generation, rather than a major redesign.

I would imagine something similar may happen with RDNA2 if it has anywhere near the same lifetime in APUs.
 

tomatosummit

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I know, I was talking about Raven Ridge to Cezanne anyway.

I kinda think AMD adopted a bit of ARM Ltd like design strategy in just upgrading bits per APU generation, rather than a major redesign.

I would imagine something similar may happen with RDNA2 if it has anywhere near the same lifetime in APUs.
The apu releases are pretty iterative and amd have kept a good 1year cadence for apus (monolithic and mainstream for oems) unlike their chiplet based high performance cpus.
Raven to renoir was a full overhaul of both ccx and soc but took two years and a node change. (raven2 was a refresh for the most part)
Renoir to cezanne was pretty much only changing the ccx to zen3 using the old soc, there's even black space on the die where the new modules didn't fit as well.
Now Cezanne to rembrandt is the same zen3 ccx on a new soc for rdna2, ddr5 and pcie4.
Phoenix is another process jump but I think the soc components going to be pretty similar to rem' but with zen4 blob in the middle and potentially pcie5.

It can get much more granular if you look at graphics designs through gcn to rdna2+. As people have mentioned vega on N7 was a fairly different design to vega64 and there were difference between VegaVII and Vega11 too where one diverged to hpc compute.
PS4 is also not fully rdna2 either but still has the majority of specifications.
There were some linux patches that imply raphael's igpu will only be rdna1 but again it'll probably be most of redna just falling short of the mark.
GCN1.0 to 1.4 was a show with all the differences in minor gpu capabilities across only three years or so.
 

moinmoin

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That's exactly my point, DTRs don't matter. They're a shrinking niche market.
DTRs matter the way DIY matters, they are both vocal niches that keep discussions about benchmark comparisons like in this very thread going. AMD is filling that niche since with Raphael they can, increasing the TAM some more.

But keep fighting the good fight. Personally I never saw a need for DTRs to exist so I wish you much success. :p
 
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jpiniero

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DTRs matter the way DIY matters, they are both vocal niches that keep discussions about benchmark comparisons like in this very thread going. AMD is filling that niche since with Raphael they can, increasing the TAM some more.
Still have to define what a DTR is and isn't. If you are going to put a 100+ W dGPU in the system, may as well put a 55+ W CPU, no? Raphael is absolutely going to be the AMD processor used in gaming laptops.
 

tomatosummit

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Still have to define what a DTR is and isn't. If you are going to put a 100+ W dGPU in the system, may as well put a 55+ W CPU, no? Raphael is absolutely going to be the AMD processor used in gaming laptops.
I think squabling about dtr specifically was a mistake here. Things are a bit murky where it doesn't matter. A laptop will have 30+watt cpus and any of them should have an option for raphael in theory.
If raph-h is also fp7 then it might be as simple as a swap for oems, especially as higher performance laptops tend to have non-lp memory. Also DFI GHF51 sized potential 16core pocket sized rworkstation.
Other end of the spectrum there will be cheap gaming laptops with remb-h paired with a dgpu that is actually less powerful than the igpu, although dpus are in low supply these days so it might not be a common problem.

Personally I'm just hoping for a good thinkpad-E type laptop with only a ~40w rembrandt-h and a bios that doesn't lock everything down though.
 

moinmoin

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Still have to define what a DTR is and isn't. If you are going to put a 100+ W dGPU in the system, may as well put a 55+ W CPU, no? Raphael is absolutely going to be the AMD processor used in gaming laptops.
I guess the whole mindless phablet craze in the "mobile" phone market seriously skewed people's perception of what's considered "mobile", but to old school me whenever I see triple digit TDP in a laptop form factor it's definitely DTR.

I think squabling about dtr specifically was a mistake here. Things are a bit murky where it doesn't matter. A laptop will have 30+watt cpus and any of them should have an option for raphael in theory.
In theory. I doubt we'll get any Raphael-H laptop without dGPUs though.

Also DFI GHF51 sized potential 16core pocket sized rworkstation.
Very unlikely to happen. The DFI GHF51 you linked there uses a 2c/4t Dali die, that's the smallest possible Zen die that exists right now. 2x CCD + 1x cIOD will take vastly more space than that.
 
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It has been a while that the Ryzen Embedded R1xxx series exists with maximum configuration to 2c/4T, the R2xxx series could be build with Van Gogh with maximum configuration to 4c/8T
 
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eek2121

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This is unlikely considering that the desktop version is supposed to come in late Q4, mobile ramp ups are much longer. Of course Raphael mobile could still come before Phoenix, I mean it's not a given that Phoenix is launching at CES 2023.
This will likely be a simple additional step in the binning process. The good IO dies and chiplets go to laptops.
Was there ever doubt about that after the Raphael-H leaks?
There is doubt whether AMD will follow through,
but the leak itself has been known for quite a while.
You think the CPU is a straight up loss? Heh.

8+8 is irrelevant for the same reasons Raphael-H is irrelevant. Nobody cares about desktop replacements, they're a shrinking niche market.
AMD will need 12-16 core parts to compete with Intel.

These chips won’t be in desktop replacements only, they will be in anything over 2lbs.

For comparison, my laptop is 4lb yet has a 54W 5900hx and a 95W 3070. The TDP of Raphael-H is 35-65W.

Also, I hate to be the bearer of bad news, but most people outside of DIY use a laptop as a “desktop”. So, knowing that, most laptops are desktop replacements.
 

uzzi38

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Also, I hate to be the bearer of bad news, but most people outside of DIY use a laptop as a “desktop”. So, knowing that, most laptops are desktop replacements.
Since when do "most people" need 100W+ dGPUs and sustained CPU power of 90W+? That market you're referring to is filled with people buying 15-28W thin and light notebooks because they already provide plenty of power for the majority of workloads. As I've said already Rembrandt is class leading for that space in multiple ways.

"Desktop replacements" refer the 1.5 inch+ thick tier laptops, the kind that generally tend to come with desktop chips put inside. Also referred to as "musclebooks" by Intel.
 
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eek2121

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Since when do "most people" need 100W+ dGPUs and sustained CPU power of 90W+? That market you're referring to is filled with people buying 15-28W thin and light notebooks because they already provide plenty of power for the majority of workloads. As I've said already Rembrandt is class leading for that space in multiple ways.

"Desktop replacements" refer the 1.5 inch+ thick tier laptops, the kind that generally tend to come with desktop chips put inside. Also referred to as "musclebooks" by Intel.
Who said anything about 90W+? Raphael-H is 35-65W. It also includes a GPU. Rembrandt covers most of the 14-54W space, Raphael-H would likely be at the top end. Alder Lake is likely going to be much faster than Rembrandt for CPU workloads, so AMD needs Raphael-H to counter.
 
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