[AMD] Official Mantle Statement

[Rvenger]

Any bets on whether there will be some shenanigans in at least one game that has mantle?

What I mean, are things like checking for a specific vendor ID of the GPU, and if == AMD then allow GPU rendering performance = 100%, else artificially limit GPU performance = 79%

It makes me wonder how well DX 11.2 runs with this game VS mantle. I wonder if the overhead on 11.2 is reasonable to the point where Mantle isn't beneficial. We will see in the upcoming Days/months.

 

[Topweasel]

After thinking about it I just realized this is quite good.
The only way for Nvidia to eventually counter is to make their own API.

Mantle and Whatever Nvidia calls their API would easily dominate the market as they are the two major graphics card makers. They would get priority over Dx and OpenGL and everythign else.

I'd gladly switch the top ones we have now for Mantle and whatever Nvidia calls theirs and thus get better gaming performance in general..

It's doubtful that anything Nvidia does low level API wise gets much traction. The advantage that Mantle has is that it will be a necessary part of development on the consoles (PS4 and Xbone), which is the platforms that most games are going to be developed for.

Once they port it to the computer for 500 series and older and 6k series and older they still need to have DX or OpenGL support. So it's more about not removing those API calls for Mantle for computers that support it, rather than developing the game for Mantle cards in the first place. Sure Nvidia can pay for some TWIWMTBP titles with their API, but a PC port is going to go DX or Ogl for the most part because there are millions on older cards and will have better support for Intel IGP since they have become more usable. Maybe if Nvidia were to stick with it for 3-4 years and the chips that don't support Mantle or Nvidia API goes away more developers would bake in the Nvidia API as well. But it will be a much tougher road for Nvidia.

 

[Will Robinson]

If there is most likely it'll be some hidden code dropped by a NVidia performance tweak in a co-developed game.

Project code name: Demantilizer....Uber top secret not even keys knows yet.

I have to admit I LOL'd at that one :biggrin:

Great post Ken,thanks for the perseverance getting it cut n pasted past the filters.:thumbsup:
Can't wait to see how Mickey effects/improves BF4 😛

 

[GaiaHunter]

I think this statement pretty much confirms some of what has been speculated.

"This is because Mantle allows developers to use the same features and programming techniques they are already utilizing for next-gen game consoles. And while the initial iteration of Mantle is intended specifically for PCs, it has been designed from the beginning to be extensible to other platforms as well."

Same features and programming techniques pointing to the same low level constructs that will be used by consoles.

"In short, Mantle is a new and better way to bring the code developers are already writing for next-generation consoles to life on the PC. It achieves this by being similar to, and often compatible with, the code they are already writing for those platforms."

More pointing at being similar to what is inside the consoles.

"And with a Mantle back-end baked into Frostbite™ 3 you can expect other games based on this engine to reap all of its benefits."

It confirms that a backend (or wrapper) is all you need to interface with mantle and not writing the game engine code from the get go to work with it. Makes sense since it isn't a programming language like CUDA.

Those that sell engine licenses will surely be considering adding a backend for mantle to their engines. AMD will be delighted to help.

"Essential principle #4: Don’t break games

While Mantle is uniquely optimized for PCs containing the Graphics Core Next architecture, we recognize there other architectures in the market. Gamers with these architectures deserve good gameplay just as much as anyone else, and we have t designed Mantle in a way that respects their right to game well.

Developers using Mantle are free to implement whatever optimizations they choose to maximize the performance of their game for everyone. Now, more than ever, Mantle assures that the choices a developer must make to optimize their game code for the leading PC graphics architectures are non-interfering choices."

This is a jab at NVIDIA while at the same time trying to appease the people that fear a fragment PC game market.

Basically it reads as "we not making rocksteady sign a contract that forbids them from enabling AA for other architectures type of thing".

 

[Attic]

Wow, great write up. Interest defiantly peaked to see where this leads.

 

[OatisCampbell]

It's doubtful that anything Nvidia does low level API wise gets much traction. The advantage that Mantle has is that it will be a necessary part of development on the consoles (PS4 and Xbone), which is the platforms that most games are going to be developed for.

Once they port it to the computer for 500 series and older and 6k series and older they still need to have DX or OpenGL support. So it's more about not removing those API calls for Mantle for computers that support it, rather than developing the game for Mantle cards in the first place.

As a 7970 user I wish this were true. However; MS has publicly stated that Mantle will not be allowed on Xbox One, and AMD has publicly stated that Mantle is only for the PC.

So Mantle will be more like PhysX, a feature AMD will have to pay to get into games with programming assistance. (which is what they did with BF4)

I thought Mantle was going to be the tie between consoles and PCs as well, but console development will happen in a form of Direct X.

 

[GaiaHunter]

As a 7970 user I wish this were true. However; MS has publicly stated that Mantle will not be allowed on Xbox One, and AMD has publicly stated that Mantle is only for the PC.

So Mantle will be more like PhysX, a feature AMD will have to pay to get into games with programming assistance. (which is what they did with BF4)

I thought Mantle was going to be the tie between consoles and PCs as well, but console development will happen in a form of Direct X.

You are wrong.

Mantle doesn't need to be in the consoles.

Also developers can add any libraries they want to their engines.

 

[ultimatebob]

That's the important part. We can all now discuss what would be a "pleasant surprise" to us.

I will only be surprised by more than 20-25%. I'm expecting 20% minimum.

You're way too optimistic. This is AMD's marketing department we're talking about... if they have a card that is 5% faster than Nvidia's counterpart, they consider that to be a big win that "dominates" the competition.

Not that NVidia is any better, mind you.

 

[GaiaHunter]

You're way too optimistic. This is AMD's marketing department we're talking about... if they have a card that is 5% faster than Nvidia's counterpart, they consider that to be a big win that "dominates" the competition.

Not that NVidia is any better, mind you.

Don't even the consumers do that?

 

[OatisCampbell]

You are wrong.

Mantle doesn't need to be in the consoles.

Also developers can add any libraries they want to their engines.

I don't see how that makes me wrong.

Topweasel said:

The advantage that Mantle has is that it will be a necessary part of development on the consoles (PS4 and Xbone), which is the platforms that most games are going to be developed for.

Microsoft said:

Other graphics APIs such as OpenGL and AMD’s Mantle are not available on Xbox One.

Gaiahunter said:

It is obvious that Mantle, something AMD announced for the PC and not the consoles, isn't available for the consoles.

And I said:

As a 7970 user I wish this were true. However; MS has publicly stated that Mantle will not be allowed on Xbox One, and AMD has publicly stated that Mantle is only for the PC.

So Mantle will be more like PhysX, a feature AMD will have to pay to get into games with programming assistance. (which is what they did with BF4)

I thought Mantle was going to be the tie between consoles and PCs as well, but console development will happen in a form of Direct X.

Nothing I said is inaccurate that I can see. It's pretty obvious Mantle isn't a "necessary part of development for Xbox1" as Topweasel said because MS won't allow the use of it on their console running their OS.

If MS won't allow it, it's doubtful developers will make Sony only Mantle versions of games other than every now and again. (if that, they have their own API as well I imagine that likely uses DX as devs want to minimize porting time between platforms)

And if developers aren't coding for Mantle with consoles, and AMD has about 36% of the discrete graphics market, it's doubtful devs are going to spend time coding for AMD only.

So, Mantle ends up a lot like PhysX- a proprietary feature the brand will have to ensure is in games by covering the cost of it being in games.

As a 7970 gamer, this isn't what I hoped for, but I still hope AMD's dev relations come through and get me some good Mantle games that help me keep the 7970 longer.

 

[Paul98]

I don't see how that makes me wrong.

Topweasel said:



Microsoft said:



Gaiahunter said:



And I said:



Nothing I said is inaccurate that I can see. It's pretty obvious Mantle isn't a "necessary part of development for Xbox1" as Topweasel said because MS won't allow the use of it on their console running their OS.

If MS won't allow it, it's doubtful developers will make Sony only Mantle versions of games other than every now and again. (if that, they have their own API as well I imagine that likely uses DX as devs want to minimize porting time between platforms)

And if developers aren't coding for Mantle with consoles, and AMD has about 36% of the discrete graphics market, it's doubtful devs are going to spend time coding for AMD only.

So, Mantle ends up a lot like PhysX- a proprietary feature the brand will have to ensure is in games by covering the cost of it being in games.

As a 7970 gamer, this isn't what I hoped for, but I still hope AMD's dev relations come through and get me some good Mantle games that help me keep the 7970 longer.

They have already spent the time coding for GCN on the consoles using the consoles low level API. This code will be easy to reuse with Mantle on PC's with GCN. They still will make a full DX version that will work on all PC's, but there is no reason for them to waste the code they have already written for GCN. Also if it makes it in a couple of the main game engines that is a lot of games it will effect right there.

 

[GaiaHunter]

What you don't get Oatis it is that a low level API designed to work with the GCN has to obey certain rules dictated by the hardware.

Those rules aren't a secret or copyrighted.

It is not mantle in the consoles but mantle quacks and looks like it.

AMD said:

The preeminence of Graphics Core Next is the hardware answer to these concerns, unifying the console ecosystem (and much of the PC market) under a common graphics architecture. But Mantle is the software remedy for these difficult choices, allowing developers to uniformly work across multiple platforms in a single endeavor—consoles and PCs may be treated equitably.

It’s not that Mantle is the initial language with which developers are writing their games on each platform, as some have surmised; the point of Mantle is that it’s easy to reuse, in whole or in part, the development effort expended on the next-generation consoles when bringing the same game to life on the PC. This is because Mantle allows developers to use the same features and programming techniques they are already utilizing for next-gen game consoles. And while the initial iteration of Mantle is intended specifically for PCs, it has been designed from the beginning to be extensible to other platforms as well.

If you notice, what MS said doesn't invalidate what AMD say.

 

[lau808]

Mantle isnt available/supported/allowed on xbone because mantle is a path for game/engine devs to use the low level api on a pc. Of course you cant put that on a console. Its using the console (code?).

 

[GaiaHunter]

Mantle isnt available/supported/allowed on xbone because mantle is a path for game/engine devs to use the low level api on a pc. Of course you cant put that on a console. Its using the console (code?).

It reuses part of the consoles code because the Mantle abstractions are similar to the consoles low level API abstractions.

How can the abstractions be similar?
Because they work with the same architecture. It isn't a secret and APIs cannot be copyrighted in the US.

Also MS can't really not allow mantle libraries in the game engines if the developers so choose.

Because in the end what interacts with mantle or the consoles api is game engine backend.