Discussion AMD failure in notebooks really was due to giving igps priority over cpu?

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Shivansps

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Sep 11, 2013
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Ok i wanted to make this thread to discuss about this matter ever since people started chearing when AMD cut down the IGP in Renoir with some people thinking that the idea was giving "CPU higher priority because IGP priority gave nothing to AMD".

Im going to go back several years to the first notebook i ever had, the MSI U230, this was the time that in small factors your choices were a increible slow Atom CPU+useless IGP, the ION platform (Intel Atom + Nvidia chipset with a OK igp), later replaced with the ION2 platform when Intel did not allowed Nvidia to make chipsets anymore, ION2 was Intel Atom+Intel chipset+Nvidia ION2 gpu in a x1 PCI-E connection used via optimus, and finally AMD Yukon platform, with AMD Neo CPUs (it were the same CPUs but with lower clocks and voltage).
The MSI U230 as one of the best you could get in the Yukon platform, with a dual core L335 and a RS780 chipset with a HD3200 IGP, AMD was having far more CPU perf than the ATOMs, and the HD3200 was hand to hand with the IONs, because the HD3200 was a little slower than Nvidia ION GPUs(specially ION2 that had VRAM), but the CPU perf difference was way too high, so in gaming the HD3200 was better, specially with dual channel, only the ION2 was at top a few times.

Then AMD came up with i think it is the worst they ever did, the small cores. The first APU was the E-350 that was a Dual Core with Bobcat cores and a integrated HD6310 (it was a HD5450 in a IGP), but with single channel ram.
I went ahead and brought one, a HP DM1z, i was planning to give my U230 away and replace it the DM1z... You guys have no idea how dissapointed i was with the DM1z, the Bobcat cores were slower than the ones in the L335, and the IGP was held back by the single channel ram, resulting only in a very small jump gaming in performace. Only batery life were about 1 hour longer.
And thats was the last notebook i owned, by that time i was already working in a computer distrubutor with access to a lot of notebooks and general hardware.

Everything went downhill there, Intel did a far better job in keeping OEMs from using the worthless Atom off the mainstream notebooks(until Baytrail), but AMD small cores were not restricted to small factors and started to go in every type of notebook, this damaged AMD image A LOT, because performance was BAD, really, really bad, even in IGP has Intel HD3000 was outperforming the 80CU IGP in the small core APUs. The small cores are a problem even today as unsold Carrizo-L and Stoney Ridge notebooks models are still around, even with a SSD these things feel slow. And SSD arent common on those models.

And that was not the only problem i saw, the number of small core notebooks was hidding the big core AMD APU models, the big core APU models became rare, but they did a lot better in performance vs the Intel notebooks, but even big cores APUs had both CPU and GPU performance problems vs Intel, as well as using more power. At the end AMD did not had a clear GPU lead over Intel in big cores in notebooks either.

This changed only with the first Ryzen Mobile APUs, but they still had turbo and power efficiency issues that AMD fixed in Renoir.
So what i think is was never about giving the IGP priority, it was about the mistakes they did with the small cores, and they never had a clear lead on the mobile big core APUs either.
 

A///

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Feb 24, 2017
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In the grand scheme of things, total laptops wise, gaming are still niche. All the true hard core gamers that I have ever heard of, use desktops. College students and younger kids who travel will take a laptop. But overall numbers of laptop gamers is small.
Yep. I'm not sure if that user noticed where I said "in the wild outside of stores," but it's the truth. I've used a few MSI models in stores and they're plenty fast. You give up some portability due to the weight and sheer size, but if kept maintained they should last a decade.
 

Shivansps

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Sep 11, 2013
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I am so sick and tired of people quoting the Steam hardware survey. Its the most biased, worthless survey ever. First, it has no relevance to actual sales or usage. Second is you have to actually choose to use it. And as I said, the only people that use them in a decent amount of numbers, are college students in the dorm. At home they use a desktop.

Well, it is the best source of information we got about hardware that is used for gaming, if you know another one please point me to it. While i do agree you cant use it to say what type of GPU is used more than another, you cant dismiss the fact that the Intel HD4000 was, for a long while, at the top of the list, and even if they were getting pay to show that (100% worthless), if you check the list now you will realise there are several mobile only IGPs at the upper places (Intel X2X) and a few very low end Nvidia mobiles gpus like the MX150/250...
This is supported by the fact Nvidia keeps making low end mobile gpus and IGPs every gen gets better and better making them obsolete. i really dont think Nvidia, Intel and AMD to be doing that just for fun.

In fact i used the U230 and the DM1z when i was at the university (no dorms here, i went to my home every day), and i also used them to play from time to time. At those times i used to play more in those notebooks than in my pc due to be short on time.
 
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Markfw

Moderator Emeritus, Elite Member
May 16, 2002
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Well, it is the best source of information we got about hardware that is used for gaming, if you know another one please point me to it. While i do agree you cant use it to say what type of GPU is used more than another, you cant dismiss the fact than the Intel HD4000 was, for a long while, at the top of the list, and even if they were getting pay to show that (100% worthless), if you check the list now you will realise there are several mobile only IGPs at the upper places (Intel X2X) and a few very low end Nvidia mobiles gpus like the MX150/250...
This is supported by the fact Nvidia keeps making low end mobile gpus and IGPs every gen gets better and better making them obsolete. i really dont think Nvidia, Intel and AMD to be doing that just for fun.

In fact i used the U230 and the DM1z when i was at the university (no dorms here, i went to my home every day), and i also used them to play from time to time. At those times i used to play more in those notebooks than in my pc due to be short on time.
There is no good source !! And whatever it said in the past is crap also. Past and present, its irrelevant. It has been contended here on Anandtech, and quoting it has been infracted at least once in the past.

Edit: The reason infractions were given was due the the huge amounts of arguments about its numbers, rightfully so. So DROP THAT
 
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Shmee

Memory & Storage, Graphics Cards Mod Elite Member
Super Moderator
Sep 13, 2008
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Im not sure what a gaming laptop has to do with anything, AMD has not produced anything of the sort until Renoir.
I would not buy a laptop if I couldn't at least play some games on it. Seems like a waste of money. Also AMD has had higher end offerings in the past with polaris and earlier GPUs in laptops.
 
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NostaSeronx

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Sep 18, 2011
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I think everyone would have been more happy on the mobile side if this was the case:

40nm Bulk => 2x Bobcat + 1 GPU unit (same in timeline)
32nm PDSOI => 8x Bobcat + 6 GPU Unit (Replacing Trinity/Richland in the timeline)
(40nm CPP=167nm, 40nm M1/M2=120nm/130nm => 32nm CPP=130nm, 32nm Mx=104 nm)

28nm Bulk => 4x Jaguar + 2 GPU Unit (same in timeline)
22nm PDSOI => 8x Jaguar + 8 GPU unit (Replacing Kaveri/Godavari in the timeline)
(28nm CPP=117nm, 28nm Mx=90nm => 22nm CPP=100nm, 22nm Mx=80nm)

The main reason to use the PDSOI node is to lower the die cost of big dies and driving the big die. The cores are highly portable relative to Fam 15h.

Shift to FinFET would have happened regardless do to Bulk finally getting drive current.

People are happy with less => RPi series and Switch. As long as the core count was better than competition so would customer appreciation.
 
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mikegg

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Jan 30, 2010
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Correct. If you were capable of buying a computer when AMD was knocking Intel down a few pegs years ago, then you would know they weren't the cheap option. Yes, Pentium was always expensive. But a lot of the AMD prices would make you weep. At around this time, Intel slashed their prices even though their product wasn't as good. AMD was losing market share left and right. At the same time, Intel was paying off HP and Dell to not use AMD processors, and instead use Intel's inferior processors.

Always wondered if this was retribution from Intel for them having lost their court fights against AMD and people going with AMD64 over IA-64. Realistically, a bankrupt AMD isn't good for Intel by any stretch of the imagination. Licensing would never get voided. Negotiated again, yes. But whomever purchased AMD or stepped into to bankroll them if the aforementioned didn't occur would have deep pockets. Imagine if a consortium of companies got together and aided AMD financially and with resources, so they can deliver a product better than Intel for the foreseeable future. Big time crazy talk for sure.

Not like it's needed. Intel can't tell their head from their butt right now.
A bankrupt AMD was not a good thing for Intel because of antitrust issues. Intel needed AMD to survive, but they wanted AMD to have a very low marketshare and only operate in low margin segments.

Nowadays, Intel probably wants AMD to go bankrupt because they can argue in the courts that x86 is actually competing against ARM and that they have plenty of competitors in Apple, Qualcomm, Nvidia, Samsung, Amazon, Ampere, etc.
 
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mikegg

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In the grand scheme of things, total laptops wise, gaming are still niche. All the true hard core gamers that I have ever heard of, use desktops. College students and younger kids who travel will take a laptop. But overall numbers of laptop gamers is small.
It's the exact opposite. The market for gaming laptops is significantly bigger than gaming desktops.


We're in an enthusiast forum so we're biased by DIY, powerful, gaming desktops. But in the real world, gaming laptops are more popular than gaming desktops.

We're not in the year 2000 anymore, where if you want to be a PC gamer, you build your own desktop tower. I have to admit that most people here still have the year 2000 mindset when it comes to trends and hardware beliefs.

Personally, I've built many desktop computers in the past. But I won't build another desktop again. My next computer will be a laptop with a highend GPU. Why? I don't want two computers. Portability is a must. I don't mind playing at 1080p medium settings. And mobile GPUs are powerful enough, especially the upcoming mobile RTX 3000 series.

Edit: People on these forums - please understand that we are the minority. We are the niche. What we want/think is not what the outside world wants or thinks. The truth is that DIY computing is an extremely small market compared to laptops, cloud, mobile, and AI. Stop thinking that what we want matters. We're second/third priority for AMD, Intel, Nvidia.
 
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tamz_msc

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Jan 5, 2017
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I am so sick and tired of people quoting the Steam hardware survey. Its the most biased, worthless survey ever. First, it has no relevance to actual sales or usage. Second is you have to actually choose to use it. And as I said, the only people that use them in a decent amount of numbers, are college students in the dorm. At home they use a desktop.
On what basis are you arguing that Steam HW survey is worthless? Because it's random and opt-in?
It's the exact opposite. The market for gaming laptops is significantly bigger than gaming desktops.
Yeah this is true especially outside the US.
 

A///

Diamond Member
Feb 24, 2017
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A bankrupt AMD was not a good thing for Intel because of antitrust issues. Intel needed AMD to survive, but they wanted AMD to have a very low marketshare and only operate in low margin segments.

Nowadays, Intel probably wants AMD to go bankrupt because they can argue in the courts that x86 is actually competing against ARM and that they have plenty of competitors in Apple, Qualcomm, Nvidia, Samsung, Amazon, Ampere, etc.
Did you reiterate what I said to explain what I'd already said? The rest of your post makes no sense. Apple is now competing with themselves. NVidia's been a thorn in Intel's side for a long time in the datacenter. How does Samsung fit here? As a fab or their own ARM processors which leave a lot to be desired? Amazon's Graviton? I don't recall Amazon wanting to disclose the power envelope for Graviton. Ampere's rated TDP for their 80 core @ 3 Ghz is 210 watts. Real world energy use is... no idea.

If Intel wants to bankrupt AMD in court, sure. Go ahead. Are they going to bring back IA-64? Assuming Intel has added to it, the bulk of it remains to be AMD's IP. What's the powerplay by Intel there? Shoot themselves in the feet even more than they've already done? Intel has historically shot themselves in the foot, this 6 year on going mishap is not a new occurrence for Intel.
 

Markfw

Moderator Emeritus, Elite Member
May 16, 2002
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On what basis are you arguing that Steam HW survey is worthless? Because it's random and opt-in?

Yeah this is true especially outside the US.
The words "random" and "opt-in" both totally negate the usefulness of they survey. That should be obvious.
 
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mikegg

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Did you reiterate what I said to explain what I'd already said? The rest of your post makes no sense. Apple is now competing with themselves. NVidia's been a thorn in Intel's side for a long time in the datacenter. How does Samsung fit here? As a fab or their own ARM processors which leave a lot to be desired? Amazon's Graviton? I don't recall Amazon wanting to disclose the power envelope for Graviton. Ampere's rated TDP for their 80 core @ 3 Ghz is 210 watts. Real world energy use is... no idea.

If Intel wants to bankrupt AMD in court, sure. Go ahead. Are they going to bring back IA-64? Assuming Intel has added to it, the bulk of it remains to be AMD's IP. What's the powerplay by Intel there? Shoot themselves in the feet even more than they've already done? Intel has historically shot themselves in the foot, this 6 year on going mishap is not a new occurrence for Intel.
No, I didn't. You said if AMD was going to go bankrupt, it'd be bad for Intel because bigger pockets would buy AMD and infuse them with cash to compete with Intel. I said AMD going bankrupt was bad for Intel in the past because it would have created antitrust issues for Intel.

Apple is competing with Intel because ARM Macbooks will compete in sales with Intel laptops.

Samsung competes with their own SoCs and foundries.

Amazon Graviton competes with Intel in the server space. Doesn't matter how Graviton performs, it's competing with Intel CPUs.

The point I'm trying to argue is that Intel was dominant in all areas of computing from 2007 - 2017ish. It didn't want AMD to go bankrupt.

But now even if AMD goes bankrupt, Intel can argue that their x86 processors are not a monopoly anymore because many companies compete with their processors.
 

A///

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Feb 24, 2017
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No, I didn't. You said if AMD was going to go bankrupt, it'd be bad for Intel because bigger pockets would buy AMD and infuse them with cash to compete with Intel. I said AMD going bankrupt was bad for Intel in the past because it would have created antitrust issues for Intel.
Yeah, you did. I suggest reading carefully before accusing me of saying something when I offered two different situations. See the following:

Realistically, a bankrupt AMD isn't good for Intel by any stretch of the imagination. Licensing would never get voided. Negotiated again, yes. But whomever purchased AMD or stepped into to bankroll them if the aforementioned didn't occur would have deep pockets.

If AMD is purchased, the contract they have with Intel reverts. If x86 is revoked, then AMD64 is revoked. Intel will not be able to use x86-64. A new contract ensures things move on along. If a company comes along and infuses AMD with money, they don't purchase the company. They are investing in the company. Dell invested money in Nuvia. They don't own Nuvia.
 
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mikegg

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Yeah, you did. I suggest reading carefully before accusing me of saying something when I offered two different situations. See the following:



If AMD is purchased, the contract they have with Intel reverts. If x86 is revoked, then AMD64 is revoked. Intel will not be able to use x86-64. A new contract ensures things move on along. If a company comes along and infuses AMD with money, they don't purchase the company. They are investing in the company. Dell invested money in Nuvia. They don't own Nuvia.
No I didn't.

What you said:
Realistically, a bankrupt AMD isn't good for Intel by any stretch of the imagination. Licensing would never get voided. Negotiated again, yes. But whomever purchased AMD or stepped into to bankroll them if the aforementioned didn't occur would have deep pockets.

What I said:
A bankrupt AMD was not a good thing for Intel because of antitrust issues.
 

A///

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Feb 24, 2017
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Apple is competing with Intel because ARM Macbooks will compete in sales with Intel laptops.
Intel will be on Windows and Linux. Apple Silicon will be on macOS. I don't know why you assume someone seeking an Apple computer will consider Windows at that point. You really need to think before posting. Even today, in x86 Macs, those seeking to buy a Mac will not buy a Windows based laptop. Even the best x86 laptop, the XPS, falls short of the MacBooks and MacBook Pros in quality. Every Mac owner complains about the XPS, including the "awful" trackpad.
 

mikegg

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Jan 30, 2010
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Intel will be on Windows and Linux. Apple Silicon will be on macOS. I don't know why you assume someone seeking an Apple computer will consider Windows at that point. You really need to think before posting. Even today, in x86 Macs, those seeking to buy a Mac will not buy a Windows based laptop.
This is false.

People do evaluate between Windows and Macs. In fact, I alternate between them today. Apple does not exist on an island alone.

Try again.
 

A///

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Feb 24, 2017
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Amazon Graviton competes with Intel in the server space. Doesn't matter how Graviton performs, it's competing with Intel CPUs.
Right. The Phoronix tests showed Graviton2 neck and neck with Xeon and Epycs in virtualization tests, and outranked in bare metal tests. Your point?
 

A///

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Feb 24, 2017
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The point I'm trying to argue is that Intel was dominant in all areas of computing from 2007 - 2017ish. It didn't want AMD to go bankrupt.
Duh? Do you think you're the only person who knew Core was amazing? Did you think you were the only one who knew Intel was prepared for Bulldozer until it turned out to be junk and they sighed sweet relief that AMD messed up? AMD going bankrupt is the worst thing that can happen to Intel. Anyone who's ever been into the hobby of computer for even a month figures this out or reads that contract clause.

But now even if AMD goes bankrupt, Intel can argue that their x86 processors are not a monopoly anymore because many companies compete with their processors.

How do you figure Intel is going to keep making processors without AMD64? Amazon's Graviton series is an in-house product. They don't intent to sell it. ARM servers are not a new thing. Samsung SoCs are not servers. They're for their in-house products, some third party applications and whoever they fab out to. ARM servers have been around for at least a decade now.
 

mikegg

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Jan 30, 2010
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Right. The Phoronix tests showed Graviton2 neck and neck with Xeon and Epycs in virtualization tests, and outranked in bare metal tests. Your point?

My point is to refute your point below.

Your point:
The rest of your post makes no sense. Apple is now competing with themselves. NVidia's been a thorn in Intel's side for a long time in the datacenter. How does Samsung fit here? As a fab or their own ARM processors which leave a lot to be desired? Amazon's Graviton? I don't recall Amazon wanting to disclose the power envelope for Graviton. Ampere's rated TDP for their 80 core @ 3 Ghz is 210 watts. Real world energy use is... no idea.

My counters:
Amazon Graviton competes with Intel in the server space. Doesn't matter how Graviton performs, it's competing with Intel CPUs.
No, I didn't. You said if AMD was going to go bankrupt, it'd be bad for Intel because bigger pockets would buy AMD and infuse them with cash to compete with Intel. I said AMD going bankrupt was bad for Intel in the past because it would have created antitrust issues for Intel.
 

mikegg

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Jan 30, 2010
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Duh? Do you think you're the only person who knew Core was amazing? Did you think you were the only one who knew Intel was prepared for Bulldozer until it turned out to be junk and they sighed sweet relief that AMD messed up? AMD going bankrupt is the worst thing that can happen to Intel. Anyone who's ever been into the hobby of computer for even a month figures this out or reads that contract clause.



How do you figure Intel is going to keep making processors without AMD64? Amazon's Graviton series is an in-house product. They don't intent to sell it. ARM servers are not a new thing. Samsung SoCs are not servers. They're for their in-house products, some third party applications and whoever they fab out to. ARM servers have been around for at least a decade now.
I'm sorry but nothing you said here makes any sense so I will not bother to reply.