Discussion AMD Cezanne/Zen 3 APU Speculation and Discussion

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dr1337

Member
May 25, 2020
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Fresh leak out today, not much is known but at least 8cu's is confirmed. Probably an engineering sample, core count is unknown and clocks may not be final.

This is very interesting to me because cezanne is seemingly 8cu only, and it seems unlikely to me that AMD could squeeze any more performance out of vega. A cpu only upgrade of renoir may be lackluster compared to tigerlake's quite large GPU.

What do you guys think? Will zen 3 be a large enough improvement in APU form? Will it have full cache? Are there more than 8cus? Has AMD truly evolved vega yet again or is it more like rdna?
 

uzzi38

Platinum Member
Oct 16, 2019
2,358
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You will get an RDNA2 APU on AM4. Just not now.

Cezanne is TTM and cost focused. AMD want something that can compete much better in the -U segment against Tiger Lake than Renoir can, because multi-core performance alone doesn't sell if you don't have comparable ST perf, and they want it out fast. They also want to ensure supply constraints are minimised as well, so smaller dies and smaller transistor budgets on the iGPU are ideal.
 

Kryohi

Junior Member
Nov 12, 2019
12
13
51
You will get an RDNA2 APU on AM4. Just not now.

Cezanne is TTM and cost focused. AMD want something that can compete much better in the -U segment against Tiger Lake than Renoir can, because multi-core performance alone doesn't sell if you don't have comparable ST perf, and they want it out fast. They also want to ensure supply constraints are minimised as well, so smaller dies and smaller transistor budgets on the iGPU are ideal.
So, should we expect Cezanne to be launched in 2020, or is that a pipe dream?
Because if OEMs are as sluggish with Cezanne as they were with Renoir, decent availability of decent products will only materialize after ~6 months from launch, and Tiger Lake will dominate the sales for most of 2021.
I'm also wondering if the new Vega will be able to at least match Intel Xe, although that seems unlikely.
 

uzzi38

Platinum Member
Oct 16, 2019
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2020's too early lol.

I'm expecting late Q1 to early Q2, but as you can imagine things are extremely up in the air given wafer supply.

Cezanne time to reach products should be significantly lower though. It's a drop in upgrade with the same socket as Renoir, and there hopefully won't be a major pandemic causing 2 month delays.
 

Shivansps

Diamond Member
Sep 11, 2013
3,641
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Intel is pretty competitive with iGPU and tiger lake will most likley beat renoir and cezanne at the same price point. Hence I don't think this is the case. It's how AMD (Lisa Su?) ticks nowadays and I like it. Don't sink money into features that don't have a clear ROI. I still fail to see a use-case for powerful iGPUs. Just get a model with a dGPU giving you easily 2x the performance any iGPU ever will.
You are overstimating how powerfull entry level dGPUS are... a 3400G Vega 11 with DDR4-3200 is inside 5 to 10% on AVG below the perf of a RX550 128bit GDDR5, so will the 4300G, maybe add an extra 5%. Then you have the GT1030 GDDR5 and the RX550 64-bit that are below 3200G levels in a few cases. And a $99 3200G is not that much slower than a 3400G.

Not even the 1050ti gives you 2x over 3400G/DDR4-3200(its around 60-80% most of the time). So if by dGPU you mean the RX570/GTX1650 Super, yeah i agree. But those cost as much as the 3400G and you do also need a better PSU for the 570/1650, the 3400G alone runs on anything.

I think 1050ti perf is possible on DDR4 with RDNA2 and DDR4-4266(or very, very close to it) but AMD is not interested in doing it, why would they? the competition has nothing (when tiger lakes launches well see, because competitive is not the same as being better), and they would hurt their own dGPU sales.

BTW, 1080p perf is also not needed, 900p is always a lot faster in APUs and visual quality is almost the same as 1080p.
 
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moinmoin

Diamond Member
Jun 1, 2017
4,042
6,080
136
Seems Charlie knows more than us about GPU IP in APUs
"Lets dive in to the details." Cut. Now pay up to continue the dive. Classic Charlie. :p

You will get an RDNA2 APU on AM4. Just not now.
You sure? I fully expect AMD to hold back RNDA2 in APUs for the bandwidth gains DDR5 will bring, to then go full out both on CU count and performance. Which would mean AM4 (being limited to DDR4) will never get it.
 

eek2121

Platinum Member
Aug 2, 2005
2,201
2,846
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"Lets dive in to the details." Cut. Now pay up to continue the dive. Classic Charlie. :p


You sure? I fully expect AMD to hold back RNDA2 in APUs for the bandwidth gains DDR5 will bring, to then go full out both on CU count and performance. Which would mean AM4 (being limited to DDR4) will never get it.
I would like to see CDNA rather than RDNA TBH along with a better software stack. CDNA has quite a few use cases, even in gaming. Many TFLOPs of FP16, FP32, and FP64 along with tensor cores built in to the CPU is a wet dream for some of us nerds. 😀
 

uzzi38

Platinum Member
Oct 16, 2019
2,358
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"Lets dive in to the details." Cut. Now pay up to continue the dive. Classic Charlie. :p


You sure? I fully expect AMD to hold back RNDA2 in APUs for the bandwidth gains DDR5 will bring, to then go full out both on CU count and performance. Which would mean AM4 (being limited to DDR4) will never get it.
Rembrandt is 100% on AM4.


Google reverse image search on the three portraits on the top row are painted by Vermeer, Cezanne and Rembrandt in that order.

So far Rembrandt is rumoured to be the first RDNA APU. Provided that holds true, then...
 

uzzi38

Platinum Member
Oct 16, 2019
2,358
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The timing seems more like it would be on AM5.
And yet Gigabyte's B550 press deck pretty clearly puts it on AM4.

That's not to say it won't be on AM5 mind you. APUs are cost sensitive, I can definitely argue including both DDR4 and DDR5 memory controllers would be a good idea. Not to mention putting the chip on both sockets for desktop.
 

Insert_Nickname

Diamond Member
May 6, 2012
4,820
1,492
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And yet Gigabyte's B550 press deck pretty clearly puts it on AM4.

That's not to say it won't be on AM5 mind you. APUs are cost sensitive, I can definitely argue including both DDR4 and DDR5 memory controllers would be a good idea. Not to mention putting the chip on both sockets for desktop.
Its not without precedent either. K10 supported both DDR2 and DDR3 memory.
 

Arkaign

Lifer
Oct 27, 2006
20,736
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I've long given up on IGP/APU being much more than placeholder level performance due to the moving targets that the competition represents in even cheap used dGPU. The ultra budget gamer is usually using pretty pedestrian Ram as well, exacerbating the difficulties.

I kind of feel like an idiot because I posted multiple times looking forward to the Zen2 APUs with 6 and 8 cores, because it makes them more useful to OEMs for premium business desktops (not workstations, but rather for heavy office app usage), as they can have less expensive to produce PCs that have a lesser common point of failure. And for the consumer at home, it could, like the cheaper 2x00G/3x00gs before it, serve as a way to get started with something and then upgrade later on.

Then the tests started coming out and ouch. The cut cache absolutely cripples the Zen2 APUs, to the point where after adding in a dGPU, it's a generational step backwards, from Zen2 levels to something akin to Zen1 to 1+. And while that is fine for something priced like a 2200G-3400G range, where you wouldn't expect to see a high end GPU ever matched up to suddenly be bottlenecked, the much more expensive new Zen2 premium APUs are definitely something you might see in a system where someone later drops in an Ampere or Navi2 etc.

For office PCs, the cut cache doesn't hit it to quite as severe a level, but for gamers it's pretty terrible (in the 750$+ PC build range). So, I was tremendously let down.

This was after telling people to wait for the XT refresh lol. So, I've been through a couple rounds of letdowns. Zen3 at least I fully believe will represent something meaningful. As for APUs, I will continue to ignore them unless they're uncompromised in cache and IPC vs their normal Zen family counterparts, or extreme budget parts, or for office/corporate duties in a config that is $/perf matched.
 

Shivansps

Diamond Member
Sep 11, 2013
3,641
1,329
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I've long given up on IGP/APU being much more than placeholder level performance due to the moving targets that the competition represents in even cheap used dGPU. The ultra budget gamer is usually using pretty pedestrian Ram as well, exacerbating the difficulties.

I kind of feel like an idiot because I posted multiple times looking forward to the Zen2 APUs with 6 and 8 cores, because it makes them more useful to OEMs for premium business desktops (not workstations, but rather for heavy office app usage), as they can have less expensive to produce PCs that have a lesser common point of failure. And for the consumer at home, it could, like the cheaper 2x00G/3x00gs before it, serve as a way to get started with something and then upgrade later on.

Then the tests started coming out and ouch. The cut cache absolutely cripples the Zen2 APUs, to the point where after adding in a dGPU, it's a generational step backwards, from Zen2 levels to something akin to Zen1 to 1+. And while that is fine for something priced like a 2200G-3400G range, where you wouldn't expect to see a high end GPU ever matched up to suddenly be bottlenecked, the much more expensive new Zen2 premium APUs are definitely something you might see in a system where someone later drops in an Ampere or Navi2 etc.

For office PCs, the cut cache doesn't hit it to quite as severe a level, but for gamers it's pretty terrible (in the 750$+ PC build range). So, I was tremendously let down.

This was after telling people to wait for the XT refresh lol. So, I've been through a couple rounds of letdowns. Zen3 at least I fully believe will represent something meaningful. As for APUs, I will continue to ignore them unless they're uncompromised in cache and IPC vs their normal Zen family counterparts, or extreme budget parts, or for office/corporate duties in a config that is $/perf matched.
Well its not RDNA2 but a 4700G is going to get very, very close to RX560... specially with heavy GPU/MEM OC. It makes ZERO sence to try something like that but its there.
 
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Arkaign

Lifer
Oct 27, 2006
20,736
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Well its not RDNA2 but a 4700G is going to get very, very close to RX560... specially with heavy GPU/MEM OC. It makes ZERO sence to try something like that but its there.
True, but I've used a 560 and I wouldn't recommend it for anything much north of MS office and Netflix. It's pretty weak.

OC/tune/tweaked IGP is still something like putting a turbo on a 1l 3 cylinder 40hp econobox. 47hp! Yaaaaaaay 😅🥳
 

misuspita

Senior member
Jul 15, 2006
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That's bull.

I have a 560 and works decent for a lot of games. Sure, I don't play anything 2020, but for what I do is perfect. World of tanks kind. Civ. All those are GOOD ENOUGH (TM) on my 60 Hz monitor. Could do better? Yeah, if I was gaming more, probably.

But my main use is audio work and for that to have a portable mini itx box, with so much cpu power and also really playable gaming for killing time when needed is really good. Actually thinking about it. Never thought that the gpu part can reach 560 level
 

teejee

Senior member
Jul 4, 2013
361
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Pointless info without more details. Battlefield V runs fine on Ryzen 4700U.

 

DrMrLordX

Lifer
Apr 27, 2000
20,275
9,329
136
Not switching for Navi will backfire?
I don't think any of us can really know why Cezanne is staying with Vega, nor do we know how Cezanne's incarnation of Vega will perform. I think it's premature to assume that RTG can't iterate upon the design to squeeze more performance out of it. Renoir's Vega seems to outperform Picasso's a bit (but not by much), so Cezanne may be able to get a little more oomph per CU per MHz. We will see.

AMD has been burned by throwing too many transistors at iGPUs in the past. Intel may or may not be throwing a ton of transistors at Xe to cover up for the fact that they can't bring 6c+ CPUs to market with acceptable yields in 2020 on 10nm, with or without "SuperFETS" or whatever they call it. Plus it took them so long to get TigerLake-U to market. It should have been out in July.

Frankly I would not worry about it too much. AMD is looking for premium laptop design wins, and in those situations, the OEMs always include mobile dGPUs anyway, so . . .
 

DAPUNISHER

Super Moderator and Elite Member
Moderator
Aug 22, 2001
25,129
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I've long given up on IGP/APU being much more than placeholder level performance due to the moving targets that the competition represents in even cheap used dGPU. The ultra budget gamer is usually using pretty pedestrian Ram as well, exacerbating the difficulties.

I kind of feel like an idiot because I posted multiple times looking forward to the Zen2 APUs with 6 and 8 cores, because it makes them more useful to OEMs for premium business desktops (not workstations, but rather for heavy office app usage), as they can have less expensive to produce PCs that have a lesser common point of failure. And for the consumer at home, it could, like the cheaper 2x00G/3x00gs before it, serve as a way to get started with something and then upgrade later on.

Then the tests started coming out and ouch. The cut cache absolutely cripples the Zen2 APUs, to the point where after adding in a dGPU, it's a generational step backwards, from Zen2 levels to something akin to Zen1 to 1+. And while that is fine for something priced like a 2200G-3400G range, where you wouldn't expect to see a high end GPU ever matched up to suddenly be bottlenecked, the much more expensive new Zen2 premium APUs are definitely something you might see in a system where someone later drops in an Ampere or Navi2 etc.

For office PCs, the cut cache doesn't hit it to quite as severe a level, but for gamers it's pretty terrible (in the 750$+ PC build range). So, I was tremendously let down.

This was after telling people to wait for the XT refresh lol. So, I've been through a couple rounds of letdowns. Zen3 at least I fully believe will represent something meaningful. As for APUs, I will continue to ignore them unless they're uncompromised in cache and IPC vs their normal Zen family counterparts, or extreme budget parts, or for office/corporate duties in a config that is $/perf matched.
AMD APUs are now NUC killers brother. I don't really consider thunderbolt and eGPU relevant, since that defeats the whole purpose of the tiny footprint. I have a A300W - 3400G, 2x8GB Ballistix 3200 C16, Noctua NH-L9A, and it is great for many older titles. I am playing through Fallout 3 on it currently. With streaming gaming services improving, and having relatively fast internet, I can play new triple A stuff on it if I want.

6x6 is a bit more than the 4x4, but it let me use the Noctua.
 

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