Discussion AMD Cezanne/Zen 3 APU Speculation and Discussion

[dr1337]

https://twitter.com/x/status/1292844896374718470

Fresh leak out today, not much is known but at least 8cu's is confirmed. Probably an engineering sample, core count is unknown and clocks may not be final.

This is very interesting to me because cezanne is seemingly 8cu only, and it seems unlikely to me that AMD could squeeze any more performance out of vega. A cpu only upgrade of renoir may be lackluster compared to tigerlake's quite large GPU.

What do you guys think? Will zen 3 be a large enough improvement in APU form? Will it have full cache? Are there more than 8cus? Has AMD truly evolved vega yet again or is it more like rdna?

 

[Shivansps]

Fact #4 5600G has a GPU, and quite a usable one, making it cheaper than buying a 1030 or equivalent.

Thats too, altrought that not free, it is a tradeoff of having half the L3 cache and PCI-E 3.0. The good thing thing is that, compared to Picasso, Cezanne (and i think Renoir too) now has all 16 lanes on the main PCI-E x16, instead of just 8, so PCI-E 3.0 is just fine.

 

[AtenRa]

Because you are choosing to compare it to the 11600K, when it is likely to end near the 11400 in what cpu is concerned. Even the 5600X comparison is wrong here, it should be compared to the non-existant 5600. Or, better said, THIS IS THE 5600.

At 65W the 5600G will be faster even than 11600 (non K), 11400 will only reach 5600G CPU performance if you increase power to 125W or higher in order to keep turbo at maximum frequency of 4.3GHz indefinitely.

If you dont care about the power, then 5600G is unlocked and ready to be overclocked. So again the 5600G is as fast or faster in CPU and more than double (2x) faster in iGPU performance against Core i5 gen 11 from 11400 all the way up to 11600 and very close to 11600K.

 

[Shivansps]

At 65W the 5600G will be faster even than 11600 (non K), 11400 will only reach 5600G CPU performance if you increase power to 125W or higher in order to keep turbo at maximum frequency of 4.3GHz indefinitely.

If you dont care about the power, then 5600G is unlocked and ready to be overclocked. So again the 5600G is as fast or faster in CPU and more than double (2x) faster in iGPU performance against Core i5 gen 11 from 11400 all the way up to 11600 and very close to 11600K.

I dont see a issue there, both the 11400 and the 11600 have a lower MSRP, real store pricing may say otherwise, but all CPU with IGPs are overpriced these days. In fact the 5600G is launching at similar MSRP as the 11600K.

So i really dont see anywhing wrong vs Intel or AMD own 5600X due to the tradeoffs it has for the IGP. The only issue i see is the void below the 5600G.

Also keep in mind that due to the APU shortage in general, getting a 5600G at MSRP may take a long while.

 

[amd6502]

So i really dont see anywhing wrong vs Intel or AMD own 5600X due to the tradeoffs it has for the IGP. The only issue i see is the void below the 5600G.

Also keep in mind that due to the APU shortage in general, getting a 5600G at MSRP may take a long while.

Well, Shivan, you were right about half a year back. The AMD value range of products I hoped for mostly didn't materialize. I though they would leverage their seemingly unlimited GF 14nm/12nm production capacity to give us an abundance of value products like value APUs based off Picasso (3200g/3400g) as well as value GPUs like RX-560 and 570-590x.

However, as far as lower end, all we have really is products based on the 2c/3CU half-sized Raven die, and even that has gone up in price ~30%.

So unfortunately, what I hoped for never really happened; either GF hiked the prices amidst an environment of busy and booked fabs, or maybe there is too much priority given to AMD shareholders and a little too little towards the consumer; or, a little bit of both.

I think the best temporary relief to consumers is to take advantage of cheap R5 240 cards which are being pulled off of retired office machines. These are abundant at the moment and only ~$15 on ebay (On an 8GB build, half of that price is worth it just to get a little bit more system RAM available). Performance of these is like that of A8 Kaveri generation APUs (perhaps even almost A8 Bristol APU performance); really not bad at all, and quite adequate for 720p-lower-medium purposes. It might be enough to get some people by until the dGPU supply issue is fixed.

 

[jpiniero]

AMD is selling tons of mobile Picasso and Dali. Between that and all of the IO dies, that's where the GloFo supply is going.

Polaris uses GDDR5 which might not be available anymore.

 

[Rigg]

These seem to have flown under the radar a bit.

https://www.amd.com/en/ryzen-pro

 

[scineram]

Right? I mean, the 5800x is nice and all but I would have been able to save myself from buying GPU for my workstation PC and have mostly the same experience?

The 5700G - where can I buy it for that price? Am I relegated to eBay?

I meant choosing it over the 5600G. I might not have if it was $400. I was already buying an APU to replace Kaveri, not for gaming.

 

[Asterox]

View attachment 45246

These seem to have flown under the radar a bit.

https://www.amd.com/en/ryzen-pro

There is no any flying under the radar.Pro versions only have additional security options, and realistically normal PC user doesn't need Pro version at all.

R5 5600G or R5 5650G, it is the same CPU and Pro version is hm for "businnes" use.

Renoir APU example, 95% of all gray market CPU-s are Pro version.Pro version or not nobody cares, the most important thing is that the processor is available in classic retail.

If it was available, i would be very happy to buy the "Renoir APU Klingon version" as well.But i was unlucky, i had to be satisfied with Renoir Pro version.

 

[Insert_Nickname]

If it was available, i would be very happy to buy the "Renoir APU Klingon version" as well.But i was unlucky, i had to be satisfied with Renoir Pro version.

Wouldn't be the first time AMD pulled a special version on us...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_..._TWKR_(C2,_45_nm,_Quad-core,_Limited_Edition)

 

[lightmanek]

Dochvetlh vIneH!
Qapla'

 

[Zepp]

is there a reason for the lower the core count the lower the clock speed on recent Ryzen SKU's? I find it very disappointing that if I thought a zen3 quad was enough for me, I'd be relegated to 4.2Ghz when the 8 cores are doing 4.6.

 

[jpiniero]

is there a reason for the lower the core count the lower the clock speed on recent Ryzen SKU's? I find it very disappointing that if I thought a zen3 quad was enough for me, I'd be relegated to 4.2Ghz when the 8 cores are doing 4.6.

Marketing and/or binning reasons. It's unlocked so you can always try your luck.

 

[coercitiv]

is there a reason for the lower the core count the lower the clock speed on recent Ryzen SKU's? I find it very disappointing that if I thought a zen3 quad was enough for me, I'd be relegated to 4.2Ghz when the 8 cores are doing 4.6.

The 4 core SKUs need to collect any unworthy chips both in terms of functional and parametric yields. This likely includes some chips that cannot clock as hight as the 4.6Ghz that all the 6-core and 8-core SKU can.

As @jpiniero said, you can always try your luck with overclocking if 5-10% extra speed is that important to you (while the extra cores and extra L3 cache in a 4.6Ghz 6-core are not).

 

[moinmoin]

is there a reason for the lower the core count the lower the clock speed on recent Ryzen SKU's? I find it very disappointing that if I thought a zen3 quad was enough for me, I'd be relegated to 4.2Ghz when the 8 cores are doing 4.6.

AMD apparently likes to limit the overall amount of SKUs available so there are fewer price levels overall. Both amount of cores and higher clock speeds are selling points for higher priced SKUs so AMD puts both of them there.

 

[Racan]

That halved L3 cache is hurting Zen 3

 

[dr1337]

That halved L3 cache is hurting Zen 3

sure is, but still pretty good considering that its beating the 8 core zen 2 3700x in gaming with half the cache and two less cores. And in terms of iGPU performance its also doing pretty well considering it doesn't have all the CUs enabled.

 

[tamz_msc]

sure is, but still pretty good considering that its beating the 8 core zen 2 3700x in gaming with half the cache and two less cores. And in terms of iGPU performance its also doing pretty well considering it doesn't have all the CUs enabled.

Yeah but it is also losing to an 11400 and that thing is much cheaper. When it comes to the option of adding a discrete GPU in the future the 11400 is a better choice.

The 5600G should have been a $200 product.

 

[Asterox]

Yeah but it is also losing to an 11400 and that thing is much cheaper. When it comes to the option of adding a discrete GPU in the future the 11400 is a better choice.

The 5600G should have been a $200 product.

"5600G well it actually has a pretty good price".It's actually a very realistic reflection of his iGPU performance in today crazy discrete GPU shortage.

i5 11400 iGPU is trash, or barely faster vs Athlon 3000G Vega 3 iGPU.i5 11400 it must be much cheaper, in today's situation this is completely expected.

If you don't walk around with eyes wide shut, "you will see that GT 1030 prices are quite high".

Amazon.com

We cant ignore Renoir APU, and this is due to the fact that it is still available(classic retail) in various EU countries.Gamer Nexus, it acts as if America is the only country in the world.Ryzen 5 Pro 4650G is best-selling Renoir model, and for example here in my country his price is 200euro.

R5 5600G starting price is 260$, or in EU minimum will be 260-270euro.In short, if anywhere Ryzen 5 Pro 4650G is available for 200euro this is very good price.60-70 euro higher price for R5 5600G, it's just a lot too expensive.iGPU performanse is identical, and the difference Zen 2(8MB L3 Cache) vs Zen 3(16MB L3 cache) CPU performance is not even close worth 60-70$ higher price.

 

[Shivansps]

Ignore Renoir? i cant ignore Picasso... the 3400G went MIA in 2020 before all this mess, they stopped producing it, they blocked 3000 series APU support on A520/B550 on a whim whiout having a new APUs avalible(im happy to see some OEMs like ASUS giving unofficial support), and im petty sure the 3400G have around the same iGPU perf as the 5600G, Gamer nexus decided not to include older AMD apus in the comparison, he said why?

 

[Timorous]

Ignore Renoir? i cant ignore Picasso... the 3400G went MIA in 2020 before all this mess, they stopped producing it, they blocked 3000 series APU support on A520/B550 on a whim whiout having a new APUs avalible(im happy to see some OEMs like ASUS giving unofficial support), and im petty sure the 3400G have around the same iGPU perf as the 5600G, Gamer nexus decided not to include older AMD apus in the comparison, he said why?

Anand test the 4750G which is basically the same iGPU as the 5700G and it does perform a bit ahead of the 3400G. In addition the IMC in the 4xxx and 5xxx series parts is enough better than you can get good memory OCs further increasing performance.

I have a 2200G and am tempted to upgrade to the 5700G. My 3600 C16 b-die is vastly under utilised by my 2200G because it just cannot handle much above 3200 without issues where as I can probably get 4000 C18 out of it with a 5700G which on top of the clock increase is probably good for a significant performance increase in the games I play. Also the CPU uplift will help with Civ and the like.

I am disappointed that the 5700G is that far behind the 5800X and even 5600X when you throw in a GPU but I do think if they did some memory tuned vs tuned testing the APUs would close that gap somewhat.

EDIT: Also the 5700G uses less power than the 5800X so there is probably a bit of room there to increase clockspeeds a bit to also help close the gap.

 

[Shivansps]

Anand test the 4750G which is basically the same iGPU as the 5700G and it does perform a bit ahead of the 3400G. In addition the IMC in the 4xxx and 5xxx series parts is enough better than you can get good memory OCs further increasing performance.

I have a 2200G and am tempted to upgrade to the 5700G. My 3600 C16 b-die is vastly under utilised by my 2200G because it just cannot handle much above 3200 without issues where as I can probably get 4000 C18 out of it with a 5700G which on top of the clock increase is probably good for a significant performance increase in the games I play. Also the CPU uplift will help with Civ and the like.

I am disappointed that the 5700G is that far behind the 5800X and even 5600X when you throw in a GPU but I do think if they did some memory tuned vs tuned testing the APUs would close that gap somewhat.

EDIT: Also the 5700G uses less power than the 5800X so there is probably a bit of room there to increase clockspeeds a bit to also help close the gap.

I do agree that the 5600G is a better APU overall, the MSRP is also a lot higher, but the 4750G has both one more CU and a 200mhz gpu advantage, thats a significant advantage over the 5600G, the 3400G and the 5600G should be petty much tied on stock IGP perf. With DDR4-3200 the 3400G is the better APU for IGP perf check this, 3400G v 4350G v 4650G v 4750G with DDR4-3200 both stock and with iGPU oc. i have no idea of how to explain this, being wider with slower rams is actually better here, or maybe it is the 50% ROP reduction?

Expect the 5700G to be slower than the 4750G at stock, due to IGP freq being reduced by 100mhz.

So, TL;DR, with Renoir and Cezanne you need faster than DDR4-3600 to make a diference, for what i saw DDR4-4000 is the sweetspot, but dont expect to be night and day (compared to a 3400G than can easily overclock 200mhz and still gain some fps even with DDR4-3200).

So again, why they stopped producing 3400Gs, why they blocked it on the A520/B550? I just dont understand.

 

[jpiniero]

So again, why they stopped producing 3400Gs

Picasso supply being consumed by laptops?

 

[LightningZ71]

I was under the impression that Picasso production had been sharply cut back in favor of Raven2/Dali. They moved a whole lot of those low end parts over the last two years, and were likely making more money per wafer producing those than full fat Picasso.

 

[Shivansps]

Picasso supply being consumed by laptops?

Renoir took over laptops really fast, there was no contest there, Renoir was just better. They just decided to kill Picasso early on 2020 to the point they even went the exta mile to put the artificial block on new motherboards, while at the same time decided to keep Renoir only for OEM/Mobile. This is a very wierd thing to do, were all the 12nm production went?

I was under the impression that Picasso production had been sharply cut back in favor of Raven2/Dali. They moved a whole lot of those low end parts over the last two years, and were likely making more money per wafer producing those than full fat Picasso.

Raven 2/Dali is 14nm, Picasso is 12nm.

4/4 Athlons ARE full Picassos dies, but they are a low volume product.

 

[jpiniero]

Renoir took over laptops really fast, there was no contest there, Renoir was just better.

It's cheap. Amazon must have had a deal with an Acer 3350U laptop since it's currently #1 in their laptop best sellers. There's also another laptop in the list with the 3700U.