AMD Audio: How does it work?

[PingSpike]

I own a 4850 and a 6870 and both of them seem to have a high definition audio device that I usually just disable. Is this a full blown sound card that only outputs to HDMI or it just a passthrough for another sound device you already have?

To ask the question another way, if you had no sound card in your system and you installed an AMD card would you now have a sound card?

 

[jacktesterson]

I have used the HDMI Audio for years from ATI.

It's beneficial for me as I have it setup to pass through Audio completely untouched, and my Receiver than decodes it. (Dolby 5.1, DTS, etc). No need for a sound card if using a quality receiver since its a raw signal being outputted.

 

[KingFatty]

Yes, it has its own. But anyone ever test the quality? I believe it's the same blah chip that you find on motherboard, but I wonder if it's driven by fancier/beefier electronics and therefore has better quality (even if it's the same audio chip) than integrated mobo soundcards?

 

[tornadog]

I use it on my PC, but I pass everything through untouched to my Pioneer 7.1 receiver, which can process anything.IMO AMD's HDMI implementation is far superior to Nvidia's.

 

[dagamer34]

I don't think sound cards really matter that much anymore. All of the external processing you'd really want to have done to sound is best done by an AV receiver and with bitstreaming, you really don't need to worry about quality loss. Plus, since Windows Vista rewrote the audio stack, there really isn't such a thing as "hardware acceleration" anymore.

 

[chloros]

I use it on my PC, but I pass everything through untouched to my Pioneer 7.1 receiver, which can process anything.IMO AMD's HDMI implementation is far superior to Nvidia's.

Can you tell me more about how much better amd's hdmi is better than nvidias? Specs or details?

 

[Zorander]

Is this a full blown sound card that only outputs to HDMI or it just a passthrough for another sound device you already have?

Pretty sure it's just a passthrough device where the DAC on the other end (e.g. AV Receiver) is doing the conversion to analog signals.

So no, it's not the same as a full-blown soundcard. You can't use them with anything that requires analog signal input, e.g. multimedia/PC speakers that typically use 1/8" plugs, or those without HDMI support.

 

[cmdrdredd]

I use it on my PC, but I pass everything through untouched to my Pioneer 7.1 receiver, which can process anything.IMO AMD's HDMI implementation is far superior to Nvidia's.

I'd like to see some quantifiable evidence of this as well. I have used both through an Onkyo TX-NR809 and both act and sound exactly the same through a Paradigm Studio set. I can't really see what could be better than working correctly and sounding crisp.

 

[n0x1ous]

Can you tell me more about how much better amd's hdmi is better than nvidias? Specs or details?

No, he can't....its just called trolling.

 

[Lonbjerg]

I don't think sound cards really matter that much anymore. All of the external processing you'd really want to have done to sound is best done by an AV receiver and with bitstreaming, you really don't need to worry about quality loss. Plus, since Windows Vista rewrote the audio stack, there really isn't such a thing as "hardware acceleration" anymore.

OpenAL would like a word with you...

 

[cmdrdredd]

OpenAL rendered Creative's EAX and other 3D effects obsolete if that is what was meant previously.

You can get multi channel audio from games via HDMI out from your video card as well. It isn't just for bit streaming. Many people don't know this and I think it's a great idea. Makes for a very simple connection assuming HDCP plays nice which it usually does for me.

 

[Lonbjerg]

OpenAL rendered Creative's EAX and other 3D effects obsolete if that is what was meant previously.

You can get multi channel audio from games via HDMI out from your video card as well. It isn't just for bit streaming. Many people don't know this and I think it's a great idea. Makes for a very simple connection assuming HDCP plays nice which it usually does for me.

Say again?:
http://connect.creativelabs.com/openal/OpenAL%20Wiki/Extensions.aspx

(eg. Try Prey under Vista/Windows 7...OpenAL with EAX5.0)

And Creative also did a workaround with Alchemy for older DirectSound games:
http://www.creative.com/soundblaster/alchemy/

So hardware acceleration is far from dead...it's AFAIK still implemtned in the Unreal Engine 3...and should be in Unreal Enigne 4.

FYI.


PS. Multichannel audio != EAX...that argument is false/flawed:

http://www.creative.com/soundblaster/technology/eax_advanced_hd/

 

[cmdrdredd]

Since new games and engines don't use EAX it is effectively...dead. Unless you can show me where you need an XFI card to get environmental audio in a specific title? Unreal engine 3 uses EAX, but is natively OpenAL so you actually get the same effects even without a creative sound card. It's no longer necessary, OpenAL even being software based works great with today's CPUs. Running from your video card should be no issue either. Remember back in the day you checked a box to turn EAX on and off? That's gone. EAX is proprietary, and you have to have a creative soundcard to use it(I think they had an enulator for some dell laptop though). I never said multichannel audio is the same as EAX, I dunno where you got that from.

I know all about Alchemy...used it for a few games before.

Here's a little snippit from something I just read. If I'm reading it right, Creative expects developers to abandon EAX and use OpenAL's EFX.

"According to Creative's OpenAL 1.1 specification, EAX should be considered deprecated as a developer interface. New development should use OpenAL's EFX interface, which covers all the EAX functionality and is more tightly coupled with the overall OpenAL framework."

 

[Lonbjerg]

Since new games and engines don't use EAX it is effectively...dead. Unless you can show me where you need an XFI card to get environmental audio in a specific title? Unreal engine 3 uses EAX, but is natively OpenAL so you actually get the same effects even without a creative sound card. It's no longer necessary, OpenAL even being software based works great with today's CPUs. Running from your video card should be no issue either. Remember back in the day you checked a box to turn EAX on and off? That's gone. EAX is proprietary, and you have to have a creative soundcard to use it(I think they had an enulator for some dell laptop though). I never said multichannel audio is the same as EAX, I dunno where you got that from.

I know all about Alchemy...used it for a few games before.

Here's a little snippit from something I just read. If I'm reading it right, Creative expects developers to abandon EAX and use OpenAL's EFX.

"According to Creative's OpenAL 1.1 specification, EAX should be considered deprecated as a developer interface. New development should use OpenAL's EFX interface, which covers all the EAX functionality and is more tightly coupled with the overall OpenAL framework."

EAX..EFX...different name, same technology.

And even today I can hear BIG deiffrence between onboard audio/chip-via-HDMI audio...and my X-Fi in games.
Especially the 3D positioning of sound..but also the overall appereance of sounds.


Even reviewers agree on that a dedicated soundcard is way better than onboard:
http://hardocp.com/article/2012/05/01/sound_blaster_recon3d_fatal1ty_card_review/5
http://www.guru3d.com/article/sound-blaster-xfi-titanium-hd-review/8

People go apeshit about visual I.Q....but forget all about audio in games....sadly.

But since eg EU3 supports EAX/EFX it is used per default on sounds, just like PhysX is the default physics enigne...unless you specify differently it's just used per default, you don't specify EAX effects...you just specify effects.

But just like GPU > IGP so is a soundcard > onboard

 

[reallyscrued]

Yes, it has its own. But anyone ever test the quality? I believe it's the same blah chip that you find on motherboard, but I wonder if it's driven by fancier/beefier electronics and therefore has better quality (even if it's the same audio chip) than integrated mobo soundcards?

...it's digital. What would it matter how beefy the electronics are?

 

[Lonbjerg]

...it's digital. What would it matter how beefy the electronics are?

Because digital dosn't tell you squat about the effects added BEFORE the signal is transmitted...or the audio quality.

 

[reallyscrued]

Because digital dosn't tell you squat about the effects added BEFORE the signal is transmitted...or the audio quality.

...right.

 

[Lonbjerg]

...right.

So you have testing ingame sound on both onboard sound and on a dedicated soundcard and found NO differences?

Look it's really simple, just compare a IGP to a GPU.
They do the IMPORTANT work...before they transmit the signal to the screen and the performance(I.Q differs...even if they are BOTH using HDMI.

Same thing goes for sound, where the game renders the audio and adds effects BEFORE the signal gets sent of to the output unit.

You are confusing the AUDIO-RENDER with the SIGNAL-CARRIER...why do people posts about things they don not grasp?

 

[stuup1dmofo]

There should be no audible difference between a dedicated sound card and a GPU passing through a signal to a decoding device (ie. receiver). This is assuming that what is passed through is a pcm signal untouched by processing outside the games sound engine. GPU sound should equal soundcard sound when using HDMI/optical cause both should be passing the signal through untouched to an external decoder.

 

[stuup1dmofo]

To answer the OP, having a GPU =/= sound card. The GPU is bitstreaming an untouched signal to your external decoder. Whereas a soundcard is an internal decoder.

 

[KingFatty]

To answer the OP, having a GPU =/= sound card. The GPU is bitstreaming an untouched signal to your external decoder. Whereas a soundcard is an internal decoder.

Is this question resolved: does the GPU "touch" anything, by having its own internal decoder like it is a soundcard?

That's my understanding of how the AMD video cards work, they have a soundcard built into them that is used to convert the audio to a digital format that can be sent over HDMI?

 

[KingFatty]

But just like GPU > IGP so is a soundcard > onboard

I agree there can be a difference between a soundcard and onboard.

but what about the sound support built-in to a video card? Would you consider that more like a soundcard or more like onboard?

my understanding is that the sound support on video cards is like an onboard soundcard. However, the video card will be outputting a digital audio signal over HDMI, so I'm not sure if the video card sound card will also be adding effects like reverb or whatever, before formatting into the digital signal sent via HDMI.

 

[cmdrdredd]

I dunno, I have run HDMI to a receiver and I have an xfi connected to a klipsch pro media 5.1 set at my desk. I didn't notice any difference except the paradigm speakers were superior. It wasn't an apples to apples comparison either. My friend just built a new PC and no sound card, we are using the relatec alc898 and it sounds the same as my xfi.

I don't think the difference is worth mentioning for games. When you talk music quality like a symphony CD then maybe there is a fidelity difference. I wouldn't know.

 

[jacktesterson]

If your using an external receiver (I have a Denon Receiver that will process pretty much any format as well), there is no advantage of using a sound card over the GPU's HDMI audio since Its going untouched anyways. (No processing by sound card)

 

[reallyscrued]

So you have testing ingame sound on both onboard sound and on a dedicated soundcard and found NO differences?

Look it's really simple, just compare a IGP to a GPU.
They do the IMPORTANT work...before they transmit the signal to the screen and the performance(I.Q differs...even if they are BOTH using HDMI.

Same thing goes for sound, where the game renders the audio and adds effects BEFORE the signal gets sent of to the output unit.

You are confusing the AUDIO-RENDER with the SIGNAL-CARRIER...why do people posts about things they don not grasp?

Right.

Listen to this man, he 'grasps' it.

The soundcard 'renders' the sound differently than your videocard...it's not like it's bitstreaming data and has no correlation to integrated vs dedicated graphics.


To answer your question OP, if you just added a video card with the ability to send audio over HDMI, you now have ability to send audio over HDMI...that's about it. In a traditional sense, you do not have a 'soundcard' where it can do EAX and other fancy things or output the sound over analog means (1/8 phono jacks). The sound over HDMI on AMD's card is a digital passthrough. The video card sends the info as PCM or LPCM (use whichever works better with your reciever) and in that case, I suppose your receiver acts most closely to a traditional 'sound card'.