Amateur metallurgist from Detroit creates a superior steel

[Lemon law]

Pardon me Howard if I wonder if Super Banite is in the amorphous class of materials.

The glass class of material are a classic example of non crystalline structure, not technically solids but really a super viscous liquid.

And that the defining properties of an an amorphous glass is an absolute lack of any ductility at any point short of its melting temperature. And adding to the fact is the point, without special and specific heat treatment, Super Banite is an rather ordinary metal with no special properties. Because its still a crystalline metal before and after heat treatment.

 

[Howard]

Pardon me Howard if I wonder if Super Banite is in the amorphous class of materials.

The glass class of material are a classic example of non crystalline structure, not technically solids but really a super viscous liquid.

And that the defining properties of an an amorphous glass is an absolute lack of any ductility at any point short of its melting temperature. And adding to the fact is the point, without special and specific heat treatment, Super Banite is an rather ordinary metal with no special properties. Because its still a crystalline metal before and after heat treatment.

I'm pretty sure it doesn't qualify as truly amorphous. But the quick heating and cooling does seem reminiscent of it.

 

[trenchfoot]

I'm pretty sure it doesn't qualify as truly amorphous. But the quick heating and cooling does seem reminiscent of it.

In normal heat treating, longer soak times are critical toward developing the desired properties of certain grades of steel. A quick heat/cool cycle will normally produce a harder but much more brittle steel, depending on, among a bunch of other factors, how deeply the heat penetrates the metal and how high the temps are.

So it's really interesting to me how a process that is contrarian to typical heat treating makes for a stronger steel.

Sort'a reminds me of how freezing water expands and how cryogenic metal treating improves certain characteristics of tool steels, CRS, etc.

Oh yeah, I forgot to mention that I'm a toolmaker by trade.

 

[Fenixgoon]

probably a joke lol

does he have a ph.d or something?

considering that damascus steel was made with no knowledge of modern physical metallurgy, i wouldn't put it past someone to make some pretty cool stuff without traditional metallurgy training.

that being said, his flash bainite might be good for some applications, but not so good for others. i can tell you right now that the steel used in the landing gear of an aircraft is *vastly* different than the steel used every day items. some crash beams in cars may be a variety of high strength steel (i know some are TRIP steels) but without finding out exactly what's used in cars, i can't make much of a comparison to the aerospace world


also, on what scale can this be made? production steel is cast in heats nearing 100,000 lbs at a time.

it's one thing to make a small ingot, and another to make a true heat. props to the guy, though!

I have been trying to find more about Super Bainite from other sources, but so far I am not finding out much more.

But to a great extent, its not the strongest steel we have in any terms. Many existing hardened steels are far stronger in terms of tensile strength. Just a fancy term for saying how much force does it take to pull it apart.

But the thing about many of those stronger steels is that the yield point and ultimate failure points are one and the same. The really cool thing about Super Bainite, is its 10%
elongation capability at very high strength allowing it to absorb shocks without significant distortion. In short, the yield point and ultimate failure points are now wider apart than with any hardened steel we had before.

In short its a new type of designer steel that can be manufactured at less energy inputs. But still the cost per pound of the raw steel seems a bit expensive. And the other question, can it use the outputs of the basic oxygen furnaces now in vogue, that
depend on the raw material inputs of scrap steels of widely varying alloy compositions?

1) see TRIP steels. very low yield point, very high UTS

2) precipitation hardened UHSS can have ~50% RA and 15% elongation at ultimate tensile strengths as high as 290,000 psi

3) BOF? Let me know when you VIM/VAR. that's where the good stuff is

 

[Lemon law]

I am glad that tweaker2 and Fenixgoon add in new understanding of metallurgy. But still this whole thread has lead to little common thread user understanding of why some steels harden and why.

But still there is a division in human history, known by the stone age, the bronze age, and the iron age now somewhat lost in ancient antiquity more than 2 millennium before the current age.

And I somewhat ask why steel making is a mature process, when mankind didn't learn to even learn to make decent pure iron in large lots before the invention of the Bessemer converter furnaces circa 1865.

But as a metal with any decent mechanical properties, pure iron is really inferior. So why should the addition of carbon in varying amounts change the properties a steel? And how much Carbon to add before it becomes counter productive, and we get a weaker cast iron instead greatly inferior in tensile strength?

But anyone who studies metallurgy understands why steel allows us to have our cake and eat it too. As we can easily machine a soft steel and harden it later.

Because the secret in steel hardening is in the allotropic properties of the Iron Crystals. Below about 1320 F Iron forms in to body centered crystals, with fewer basic atoms of iron, above 1320 F the iron crystals transform into a Face centered crystal taking more iron atoms per crystal, Leaving the center hollow and open for small atoms like Carbon. Cool it slowly and we get no hardening, cool it quickly and it screws up all the crystalline slip planes as the expelled carbon forms needle like structures called martensite. So it goes for the 1000 series of steels. As we trade off hardness for brittleness. But still as a weakening agent, we still retain some FCC crystals called Austinite. The seeming secret of super Banite is very little retained Austinite. But still its now designer steel of precise composition, that relies far less on just carbon for hardening and perhaps can only be made in more expensive electric arc furnaces that allow more precise control of other hardening agents such as molybdenum, chrome, vanadium, and other goodies not refined out by basic basic oxygen furnaces. So we get subsequent lots of pre-heated steels with unknown compositions. One lot may be easily machinable, the next lot may be harder than hammered hell, as a toolmaker, it used to drive my company nuts. Get too much of something in the steel, and it would air harden into something super hard to machine.

Most other metals do not have allotropic crystals so they can only be hardened by participation hardening methods or coatings.

 

[trenchfoot]

I am glad that tweaker2 and Fenixgoon add in new understanding of metallurgy. But still this whole thread has lead to little common thread user understanding of why some steels harden and why.

<snip>

Most other metals do not have allotropic crystals so they can only be hardened by participation hardening methods or coatings.

Good post Lemon law. Reminds me of the heat treating classes I took in the military, of which at the time I thought was totally useless technobabble, only to find out later that I really needed to know that stuff.

 

[werepossum]

This is the coolest news I've ever seen in this forum. Pulsar's stuff is pretty cool too.

 

[William Gaatjes]

This thread is one of the better threads. It has been a while i have enjoyed reading interesting items. All posters, i salute you : :thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup:


When reading a thread such as this one, i realize only one thing.
Craftsmen(phd and engineers) create solutions. Managers create problems.
Unfortunately, politics all over the world is ruled by managers.


EDIT:
Forgot to mention Micheal Faraday. He did not have any former education either with respect to electricity.

 

[wuliheron]

Its one of the better threads because there is no politics involved.

 

[piasabird]

How come they use ceramics in bullet-proof Vests if steel is stronger?

It was years ago when I saw a man on a late-night show with a material that was similar to what they use in jet planes explaining it was twice as strong as steel and half the weight. The problem was steel costs less. However, using a lighter material could result in easier fabrication, Smaller engines, and cars that can go faster on less gasoline.

However, if the material costs more to produce that might mean it is not cost effective. I wonder if you used the aircraft material, you could make a car invisible to radar?

 

[Howard]

How come they use ceramics in bullet-proof Vests if steel is stronger?

Possibly the ceramic absorbs more kinetic energy without allowing penetration? It certainly isn't just tensile strength that determines the effectiveness of armor.

 

[Fenixgoon]

How come they use ceramics in bullet-proof Vests if steel is stronger?

It was years ago when I saw a man on a late-night show with a material that was similar to what they use in jet planes explaining it was twice as strong as steel and half the weight. The problem was steel costs less. However, using a lighter material could result in easier fabrication, Smaller engines, and cars that can go faster on less gasoline.

However, if the material costs more to produce that might mean it is not cost effective. I wonder if you used the aircraft material, you could make a car invisible to radar?

Possibly the ceramic absorbs more kinetic energy without allowing penetration? It certainly isn't just tensile strength that determines the effectiveness of armor.

1) the ceramics are so hard that they actually cause the bullet to disintegrate as the bullet drives into the material. also, ceramics often have very high *compressive* strengths and poor *tensile* strengths, while metals tend to be more isotropic (material properties are similar or same in all directions).

2) lighter doesn't mean easier to fabricate. it means less material is required. two VERY different things.

and for airplanes, many materials, especially metals, have what are called "design allowable" properties that are statistically determined from doing hundreds of tests.

lets say you test a steel, and its strength is 150,000 psi. well you might get the same steel from a different supplier, made to the same specifications, that has a strength of 140,000, or 160,000. to account for this variability, design allowables give designers a better margin of designing to the "minimum" properties (strength, ductility, etc.) of the material.

 

[Howard]

1) the ceramics are so hard that they actually cause the bullet to disintegrate as the bullet drives into the material.

Do you mean "fragment"?

 

[SpongeBob]

Do you mean "fragment"?

Well, it may fragment first but ultimately it is disintegrated because the ceramic is significantly harder than the core of the penetrator. That is only part of it. Mainly it is an energy balance equation.