Am I the only one that thinks Income Tax is BS?

jackace

Golden Member
Oct 6, 2004
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As the title says. Why can't us working stiffs earn our money in peace and let the government tax us when we spend it on goods and services? Corporations do not pay an income tax. They pay taxes on profits after ALL exenses.

Edit- I still believe we need to pay taxes to support our government, but I would rather have a system that encourages saving and wise spending.

This poll has nothing to do with government spending and HOW they spend the money. It is just related to how they collect the money to pay taxes.
 

Dissipate

Diamond Member
Jan 17, 2004
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Why can't us working stiffs earn our money in peace and spend our money in peace?
 

jackace

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Oct 6, 2004
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Originally posted by: Dissipate
Why can't us working stiffs earn our money in peace and spend our money in peace?

I'm not against taxes to pay for government needs, but taxing my income before I even see it is where I draw the line. If I want to save my income I should be able to do so and not be taxed on that money.
 

Dissipate

Diamond Member
Jan 17, 2004
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Originally posted by: jackace
Originally posted by: Dissipate
Why can't us working stiffs earn our money in peace and spend our money in peace?

I'm not against taxes to pay for government needs, but taxing my income before I even see it is where I draw the line. If I want to save my income I should be able to do so and not be taxed on that money.

So you in all of your wisdom have determined that us working stiffs need to have enormous percentages of our working lives forked over to the government to take care of its 'needs?'
 

jackace

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Oct 6, 2004
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Originally posted by: Dissipate
Originally posted by: jackace
Originally posted by: Dissipate
Why can't us working stiffs earn our money in peace and spend our money in peace?

I'm not against taxes to pay for government needs, but taxing my income before I even see it is where I draw the line. If I want to save my income I should be able to do so and not be taxed on that money.

So you in all of your wisdom have determined that us working stiffs need to have enormous percentages of our working lives forked over to the government to take care of its 'needs?'

Who is going to pay for it if not us Americans? I just do not think the government should tax me on money I make. Let them tax me on goods and services I buy.
 

Dissipate

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Jan 17, 2004
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Originally posted by: jackace
Who is going to pay for it if not us Americans?

It should be run on a volunteer basis, of course.

I just do not think the government should tax me on money I make. Let them tax me on goods and services I buy.

From one orifice to another, sounds like a great plan. BTW, I noticed that there was no mention of the amount. Should it be set at the highest rate to get the government the most money?
 

jackace

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Oct 6, 2004
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Originally posted by: Dissipate
Originally posted by: jackace
Who is going to pay for it if not us Americans?

It should be run on a volunteer basis, of course.

You know as well as I do that this method would never work

I just do not think the government should tax me on money I make. Let them tax me on goods and services I buy.

From one orifice to another, sounds like a great plan. BTW, I noticed that there was no mention of the amount. Should it be set at the highest rate to get the government the most money?

Read my original post I edited it. This topic has nothing to do with amounts, just the method.
 

jackace

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Oct 6, 2004
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I do however agree with you had we maintained the original form of tax collecting through a volunteer basis. If we were to institute such a method now not many people would be paying taxes.
 

Dissipate

Diamond Member
Jan 17, 2004
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Originally posted by: jackace
You know as well as I do that this method would never work

So you have never heard of volunteer firefighters etc.?

Read my original post I edited it. This topic has nothing to do with amounts, just the method.

Then clearly your 'mystery amount' that you have in mind is not 0 (as it should be). In any event, your method sucks, as well as all others designed to extract enormous sums of wealth.

 

jackace

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Oct 6, 2004
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With how jaded most Americans are against taxes today if we went to a fully volunteer based tax system no one would be paying taxes and our government would crumble.
 

newmachineoverlord

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Jan 22, 2006
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The problem with income tax is that the initial 50k of people's income are not exempt from taxation to allow for living expenses. Payroll taxes are an especially heavy burden on those making less than 15k/year. Of course a sales tax would be far worse, unless it exempted all products that "working stiffs" need, such as food, housing valued under a million dollars, vehicles valued under $25k, clothes valued under $500, pharmaceuticals, medical equipment, etc.

Sales taxes tend to affect those with the least money the most, as they target consumption, which tends not to increase that much with wealth, as the wealthy spend most of their income on things other than consumer goods.

It would, however, be a splendid idea to fully exempt the first 50k in income from all payroll and income taxes, eliminate the gas tax, and replace them with a tax on imported oil and a carbon tax. This would preferentially tax wasteful and inefficient practices while internalizing negative externalities to fossil fuels. The main downside would be that eventually it would result in an end of dependence on foreign oil, and thus decreased tax revenues. As downsides go, it beats pretty much all existing policies.

 

jackace

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Oct 6, 2004
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I would be fine with exempting certain things from taxes. I would also like to see sales taxes with a scaling percentage on items. If you buy a $25 million home your tax percentage is going to be higher then someone who buys a $125k home. Items and services that are considered luxury would also be taxed at a higher rate.

Like Dissipate has said. Ideally we could have a volunteer system, but realistically and honestly I could never see a system like that working and that would lead to the collapse of our government.
 

imported_Shivetya

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Jul 7, 2005
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Originally posted by: newmachineoverlord
The problem with income tax is that the initial 50k of people's income are not exempt from taxation to allow for living expenses. Payroll taxes are an especially heavy burden on those making less than 15k/year. Of course a sales tax would be far worse, unless it exempted all products that "working stiffs" need, such as food, housing valued under a million dollars, vehicles valued under $25k, clothes valued under $500, pharmaceuticals, medical equipment, etc.

Under 15k and I doubt you paid anything after all is said and done. Under 30k with kids and you don't pay much if any income tax.



 

imported_Shivetya

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Jul 7, 2005
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Originally posted by: jackace
As the title says. Why can't us working stiffs earn our money in peace and let the government tax us when we spend it on goods and services? Corporations do not pay an income tax. They pay taxes on profits after ALL exenses.

Edit- I still believe we need to pay taxes to support our government, but I would rather have a system that encourages saving and wise spending.

This poll has nothing to do with government spending and HOW they spend the money. It is just related to how they collect the money to pay taxes.

Fact : No company pays taxes. They collect taxes for the US Government from people who buy their products, people who are already taxed on that very same money.

The great lie that Congress likes to push is that they can raise taxes on corporations to ease the burden on the average citizen. Trouble is, that corporation gets its money from "average citizens" and if that corporation is sending more of the money it gets from the "average citizen" in the form of taxes to the government it only has a few ways to make it up. First is raising the price which directly passes the tax increase or indirectly if they "average citizen" buys products or services from the first company. Second is by paying less dividends directly affect investors (again average citizens). They could take a loss impacting their stock, thereby affecting the average citizens by decreased value of 401ks and such.


Congress knows that many Americans are ignorant and they are very skillful as pitting one group against another.
 

smack Down

Diamond Member
Sep 10, 2005
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Originally posted by: Shivetya
Originally posted by: jackace
As the title says. Why can't us working stiffs earn our money in peace and let the government tax us when we spend it on goods and services? Corporations do not pay an income tax. They pay taxes on profits after ALL exenses.

Edit- I still believe we need to pay taxes to support our government, but I would rather have a system that encourages saving and wise spending.

This poll has nothing to do with government spending and HOW they spend the money. It is just related to how they collect the money to pay taxes.

Fact : No company pays taxes. They collect taxes for the US Government from people who buy their products, people who are already taxed on that very same money.

The great lie that Congress likes to push is that they can raise taxes on corporations to ease the burden on the average citizen. Trouble is, that corporation gets its money from "average citizens" and if that corporation is sending more of the money it gets from the "average citizen" in the form of taxes to the government it only has a few ways to make it up. First is raising the price which directly passes the tax increase or indirectly if they "average citizen" buys products or services from the first company. Second is by paying less dividends directly affect investors (again average citizens). They could take a loss impacting their stock, thereby affecting the average citizens by decreased value of 401ks and such.


Congress knows that many Americans are ignorant and they are very skillful as pitting one group against another.

So in your idiotic logic, we should raise income tax to tax corporations? Because most people get there money from corporation and they will just pass that tax onto their employer?

Corporation can not just raise prices arbitrarily. A tax on corporate profit will decreases corporate net profits for majority of corporations. Please you can go shove the what about the people with 401Ks. Just go look up the wealth distribution and compare what percentage of stock is owned by those making less then 50K a year and what percent is owned by the rich.
 

jackace

Golden Member
Oct 6, 2004
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Originally posted by: smack Down
Originally posted by: Shivetya
Originally posted by: jackace
As the title says. Why can't us working stiffs earn our money in peace and let the government tax us when we spend it on goods and services? Corporations do not pay an income tax. They pay taxes on profits after ALL exenses.

Edit- I still believe we need to pay taxes to support our government, but I would rather have a system that encourages saving and wise spending.

This poll has nothing to do with government spending and HOW they spend the money. It is just related to how they collect the money to pay taxes.

Fact : No company pays taxes. They collect taxes for the US Government from people who buy their products, people who are already taxed on that very same money.

The great lie that Congress likes to push is that they can raise taxes on corporations to ease the burden on the average citizen. Trouble is, that corporation gets its money from "average citizens" and if that corporation is sending more of the money it gets from the "average citizen" in the form of taxes to the government it only has a few ways to make it up. First is raising the price which directly passes the tax increase or indirectly if they "average citizen" buys products or services from the first company. Second is by paying less dividends directly affect investors (again average citizens). They could take a loss impacting their stock, thereby affecting the average citizens by decreased value of 401ks and such.


Congress knows that many Americans are ignorant and they are very skillful as pitting one group against another.

So in your idiotic logic, we should raise income tax to tax corporations? Because most people get there money from corporation and they will just pass that tax onto their employer?

Corporation can not just raise prices arbitrarily. A tax on corporate profit will decreases corporate net profits for majority of corporations. Please you can go shove the what about the people with 401Ks. Just go look up the wealth distribution and compare what percentage of stock is owned by those making less then 50K a year and what percent is owned by the rich.

I understand the point to be taxing corporations does nothing to easy the burden on the "average citizen" because those taxes will eventually be passed on to those citizens that purchase the goods or those who invest in the stock of the company.
 

smack Down

Diamond Member
Sep 10, 2005
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Originally posted by: jackace
Originally posted by: smack Down
Originally posted by: Shivetya
Originally posted by: jackace
As the title says. Why can't us working stiffs earn our money in peace and let the government tax us when we spend it on goods and services? Corporations do not pay an income tax. They pay taxes on profits after ALL exenses.

Edit- I still believe we need to pay taxes to support our government, but I would rather have a system that encourages saving and wise spending.

This poll has nothing to do with government spending and HOW they spend the money. It is just related to how they collect the money to pay taxes.

Fact : No company pays taxes. They collect taxes for the US Government from people who buy their products, people who are already taxed on that very same money.

The great lie that Congress likes to push is that they can raise taxes on corporations to ease the burden on the average citizen. Trouble is, that corporation gets its money from "average citizens" and if that corporation is sending more of the money it gets from the "average citizen" in the form of taxes to the government it only has a few ways to make it up. First is raising the price which directly passes the tax increase or indirectly if they "average citizen" buys products or services from the first company. Second is by paying less dividends directly affect investors (again average citizens). They could take a loss impacting their stock, thereby affecting the average citizens by decreased value of 401ks and such.


Congress knows that many Americans are ignorant and they are very skillful as pitting one group against another.

So in your idiotic logic, we should raise income tax to tax corporations? Because most people get there money from corporation and they will just pass that tax onto their employer?

Corporation can not just raise prices arbitrarily. A tax on corporate profit will decreases corporate net profits for majority of corporations. Please you can go shove the what about the people with 401Ks. Just go look up the wealth distribution and compare what percentage of stock is owned by those making less then 50K a year and what percent is owned by the rich.

I understand the point to be taxing corporations does nothing to easy the burden on the "average citizen" because those taxes will eventually be passed on to those citizens that purchase the goods or those who invest in the stock of the company.

Well the tax can't be passed on for most goods. Are you going to spend X% more for a product just because the company has to pay a tax? Of course not and niether are most people.

The average citizens owns so little stock that the decreased profit is more then offset by the decrease in other taxes.
 

jackace

Golden Member
Oct 6, 2004
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If the tax is imposed on all corporations then they will all increase their prices by the amount of the tax. Or they might do something like they do with sales tax now. Post their price and add the tax at the register. The price increase might not be instant either, but I can guarantee you businesses WILL pass on any tax they receive to their customers.

I do not see the government ever taxing only 1 corporation or only select corporations. If you want a specific good that is taxed more you will be paying more for it plain and simple.
 

Genx87

Lifer
Apr 8, 2002
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Originally posted by: jackace
As the title says. Why can't us working stiffs earn our money in peace and let the government tax us when we spend it on goods and services? Corporations do not pay an income tax. They pay taxes on profits after ALL exenses.

Well technically you do as well, just you cant claim as many deductions as corporations can to achieve that paper 0 profit and pay no taxes.

 

mfs378

Senior member
May 19, 2003
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Originally posted by: Shivetya
Originally posted by: jackace
As the title says. Why can't us working stiffs earn our money in peace and let the government tax us when we spend it on goods and services? Corporations do not pay an income tax. They pay taxes on profits after ALL exenses.

Edit- I still believe we need to pay taxes to support our government, but I would rather have a system that encourages saving and wise spending.

This poll has nothing to do with government spending and HOW they spend the money. It is just related to how they collect the money to pay taxes.

Fact : No company pays taxes. They collect taxes for the US Government from people who buy their products, people who are already taxed on that very same money.

The great lie that Congress likes to push is that they can raise taxes on corporations to ease the burden on the average citizen. Trouble is, that corporation gets its money from "average citizens" and if that corporation is sending more of the money it gets from the "average citizen" in the form of taxes to the government it only has a few ways to make it up. First is raising the price which directly passes the tax increase or indirectly if they "average citizen" buys products or services from the first company. Second is by paying less dividends directly affect investors (again average citizens). They could take a loss impacting their stock, thereby affecting the average citizens by decreased value of 401ks and such.


Congress knows that many Americans are ignorant and they are very skillful as pitting one group against another.

Couldn't you equally well argue that people don't pay taxes, they merely collect them from corporations and pass them on to the government?
 

ayabe

Diamond Member
Aug 10, 2005
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Originally posted by: jackace
As the title says. Why can't us working stiffs earn our money in peace and let the government tax us when we spend it on goods and services? Corporations do not pay an income tax. They pay taxes on profits after ALL exenses.

That's only half true, almost 50% of the major corporations pay 0, ZERO, NIL, NADA in tax.
 

jackace

Golden Member
Oct 6, 2004
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Originally posted by: Genx87
Originally posted by: jackace
As the title says. Why can't us working stiffs earn our money in peace and let the government tax us when we spend it on goods and services? Corporations do not pay an income tax. They pay taxes on profits after ALL exenses.

Well technically you do as well, just you cant claim as many deductions as corporations can to achieve that paper 0 profit and pay no taxes.

I do not get to claim all my expenses on my taxes. Food, housing, and transportation are all examples of necessary expenses for me to live and work, but I do not get to claim them as an expense unless I use them directly for work. (ie sales person using your own car) Corporations on the other hand can claim all energy costs, facility costs, and transportation costs as expenses even if they do not directly relate to "work".

My entire point with this post was not to debate the minute details of how much or what should be included. I was wanting to discuss the basic method of collecting taxes. We can all agree taxes will be paid in one manner or another. I personally do not agree with the government taking taxes right off the top of my income. I believe we should have another way to collect taxes that encourages saving and intelligent purchasing.
 

GoPackGo

Diamond Member
Oct 10, 2003
6,414
468
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Originally posted by: Shivetya
Originally posted by: newmachineoverlord
The problem with income tax is that the initial 50k of people's income are not exempt from taxation to allow for living expenses. Payroll taxes are an especially heavy burden on those making less than 15k/year. Of course a sales tax would be far worse, unless it exempted all products that "working stiffs" need, such as food, housing valued under a million dollars, vehicles valued under $25k, clothes valued under $500, pharmaceuticals, medical equipment, etc.

Under 15k and I doubt you paid anything after all is said and done. Under 30k with kids and you don't pay much if any income tax.

You forget about FICA...everyone pays FICA
 

ahurtt

Diamond Member
Feb 1, 2001
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I hate income tax as much as the next guy but I realize it's a necessary "evil." I'd love to have sales tax pay for everything but then if that were to happen, be prepared for major legislation changes regarding sales of goods over the internet. That is a major benefit currently of purchasing goods over the internet. You can often avoid paying any sales tax. The shipping fees can offset that advantage somewhat but if you are a smart shopper you find promotions and deals where the things you want are offered with free shipping. Internet commerce would no doubt suffer by this tax collection policy. But aside from that, there are too many other "under the table" ways to acquire tangible goods and services that people need in such a way that would be free of tax. If the sales tax became too high, people would resort to those means more and more. I think overall commerce would suffer but savings would increase. Having a relatively low sales tax doesn't scare people away from buying "luxury" goods and services but the higher that tax rate goes, the less spending will occur. People will turn more and more to direct exchange of goods and services on a personal basis to bypass the tax system. I just think there are too many loopholes and ways around the sales tax only method of collecting taxes. I don't know if it could realistically satiate the fiscal thirst of our governments operating expenses and many programs. The government would need to spend its money much more judiciously and that is not really something government is known for doing.