(Aluminum?) wheel sticking to steel brake drum-how to prevent

[Thump553]

The rears on my car have brake drums. Every time I rotate the tires it is an enormous PIA to get the rear wheels off-they are stuck to the drums. I rotate every 5,000 miles, roughly every two months and have coated the touching surface on the brake drums with anti-seize compound. I'm thinking of putting some sort of washers between the wheel and drum (nonmetallic if I can find some)-any downside to this? This will cause less physical contact between the drum and wheel and I'd be able to get a pry bar in the gap if need be.

Alternatively any suggestion on how to remove the wheels easily? The car is up on jack stands and I'm not thrilled about pushing or pulling on a wheel in that situation. The last time I finally got them off by banging on a 2x4 against the inside of the wheel rim.

 

[JCH13]

0) Make, model, year?

1) Do NOT put washers between the drum and the wheel. Washer thickness is very poorly controlled and you're likely to wrack the assembly by installing them. The wheel is also a critical heat sink to help dissipate brake heat, putting washers in that interface will be a significant detriment to brake cooling.

2) If the wheels are seizing every 5k miles/2mo then I suspect that something mechanical is amiss. That's not enough time for a corrosion-based mechanism to act, unless you're driving through salty water every day. This would explain why anti-seize didn't work (you did use zinc anti-seize, right?) When was the last time that you cleaned off the hub on the rear spindle or the hub more in the wheels?

Have you tried swapping around lug nuts? What swap pattern do you use? Are the wheels OE, or aftermarket/universal? Are the wheels aluminum or steel?

3) Tricks for removing stuck wheels:

• Block of wood and sledge hammer from outside
• Loosen all lug nuts 1 full turn, get car rolling, slam on brakes

4) How do you tighten your lug nuts down?

 

[C1]

Typically the cause of rims not being able to be easily removed is because they bind on the center hub that is characteristic for the rear axle.

Yes, and too much pounding or shaking in attempt to pop off a wheel & rim can be risky unless the raised car is very well secured/blocked.

One possibility is, with the wheel removed, to use a circular wire brush on an electric hand drill to ensure all rust & scale are removed from the rear axle center hubs. Check the rim's fit over the axle hub and if it is still too tight, then use the electric hand drill fitted with an emery wheel and lightly buzz around the inside circumference of the rim center holes in attempt to remove any "scale, flash or flakes" that might be left over from the rim manufacture process.

Continue to use the anti-seize compound. After all of the above, the rim probably will still press on the hub, but getting it back off the axle should be noticeably easier.

Oh ya, one more possibility is to check if there is a difference in ease of wheel removal for a warm/hot drum versus one that is cold as there is a different coefficient of expansion for steel versus aluminum that might be able to be made to play in your favor.

 

[JCH13]

Typically the cause of rims not being able to be easily removed is because they bind on the center hub that is characteristic for the rear axle.

Yes, and too much pounding or shaking in attempt to pop off a wheel & rim can be risky unless the raised car is very well secured/blocked.

One possibility is, with the wheel removed, to use a circular wire brush on an electric hand drill to ensure all rust & scale are removed from the rear axle center hubs. Check the rim's fit over the axle hub and if it is still too tight, then use the electric hand drill fitted with an emery wheel and lightly buzz around the inside circumference of the rim center holes in attempt to remove any "scale, flash or flakes" that might be left over from the rim manufacture process.

Continue to use the anti-seize compound. After all of the above, the rim probably will still press on the hub, but getting it back off the axle should be noticeably easier.

Oh ya, one more possibility is to check if there is a difference in ease of wheel removal for a warm/hot drum versus one that is cold as there is a different coefficient of expansion for steel versus aluminum that might be able to be made to play in your favor.

A tight fit between the spindle and wheel hubs is key to their proper mechanical performance. I would not do anything that could remove good material from this interface, like an emry flap wheel. A wire brush should be all that is required to clean up this interface.

 

[Thump553]

I'm about 99% sure that it's not binding on a spindle, I'm pretty sure there is no spindle. There is a flat surface in the center of the wheel that fits flush against the outside of the brake drum-that's the cause of my problem.

 

[JCH13]

Care to share any more details about the vehicle?

 

[Squisher]

They make a high temp anti-seize. It's copper colored rather than silver. It might work.

 

[Thump553]

Care to share any more details about the vehicle?

2008 Prius, stock wheels.

 

[JCH13]

From some pics on the internet it looks like the rear wheels are in fact hub centric, and it is quite possible that the hub is getting jammed.

 

[mindless1]

A tight fit between the spindle and wheel hubs is key to their proper mechanical performance. I would not do anything that could remove good material from this interface, like an emry flap wheel. A wire brush should be all that is required to clean up this interface.

It would be hard to remove enough material to be a problem, short of using a grinding wheel, provided you use the proper lug nut tightening sequence which centers the wheel on the lugs. Being hub centric doesn't mean you can't do this. We're not talking about try to grind it down to a pitless perfect shiny finish, just removing the majority of the rust to achieve a smooth finish.

I might start with a brush for bulk rust, including a rotary wheel in a power tool if it's bad enough, but always finish using sandpaper by hand and it has worked fine for many vehicles done over decades.

If there is corrosion on the wheel interfacing areas I also sand that off, and coat touching surfaces with a small amount of thick silicone brake grease. I mean brake grease, not just any old thin dielectric grease. Thick meaning viscosity, but a thin layer, being sure it gets nowhere near friction surfaces or on the studs.

 

[jlee]

Sandpaper by hand...?

Wire wheel in a drill, 10 seconds each side, done.

 

[mindless1]

^ 10 seconds = half assed, what to do to someone else's vehicle but not your own.

 

[jlee]

^ 10 seconds = half assed, what to do to someone else's vehicle but not your own.

In that case, perhaps you let your vehicles get a lot more rusty than you should.

 

[JCH13]

^ 10 seconds = half assed, what to do to someone else's vehicle but not your own.

We're talking about cleaning oxidation off enough to get a good wheel fit. Nothing half-assed about it.

It would be hard to remove enough material to be a problem, short of using a grinding wheel, provided you use the proper lug nut tightening sequence which centers the wheel on the lugs. Being hub centric doesn't mean you can't do this. We're not talking about try to grind it down to a pitless perfect shiny finish, just removing the majority of the rust to achieve a smooth finish.

I might start with a brush for bulk rust, including a rotary wheel in a power tool if it's bad enough, but always finish using sandpaper by hand and it has worked fine for many vehicles done over decades.

If there is corrosion on the wheel interfacing areas I also sand that off, and coat touching surfaces with a small amount of thick silicone brake grease. I mean brake grease, not just any old thin dielectric grease. Thick meaning viscosity, but a thin layer, being sure it gets nowhere near friction surfaces or on the studs.

Why must one use sandpaper to finish the hub bore? I do not understand why you think wire brushes are insufficient or half-assed. Do you think you're getting a finer finish than a soft brass/ss/nylon brush would achieve?

I find the suggestion to use abrasive power tools to clean up wheel hubs to be irresponsible. Sure, it is possible to do without detriment, but it opens the door to more significant mistakes and is not necessary.

I steer clear of silicone greases wherever possible because it is nearly impossible to completely clean off of paint and other important surfaces. If some gets on a wheel or a fender then repainting/refinishing becomes all but impossible. This is a perfect use case for anti-seize containing zinc, as OP is using. The zinc dust in the antiseize is consumed before the aluminum in any corrosion-related reactions, saving the wheel, while the grease in the antiseize lubricates and seals the contacting surfaces. Silicone grease has no sacrificial zinc, and so only does half the job that zinc antiseize does in this use case.

 

[mindless1]

In that case, perhaps you let your vehicles get a lot more rusty than you should.

in this topic we're talking about cases where someone has let it get rusty enough that it won't come off easily, but that can easily happen within regular maintenance intervals, in areas where winter snow causes salted roads.

 

[mindless1]

We're talking about cleaning oxidation off enough to get a good wheel fit. Nothing half-assed about it.

That short a period with only a brush, won't get much off because the studs are in the way, unless it is a very aggressive wheel, exactly the opposite of what you want because it will take off more material in some areas, but not enough in others. Take your time and do it evenly. We're only talking about an extra minute to do it right.

Why must one use sandpaper to finish the hub bore? I do not understand why you think wire brushes are insufficient or half-assed. Do you think you're getting a finer finish than a soft brass/ss/nylon brush would achieve?

You have greater control by hand and sandpaper can be wrapped part way around the hub without the studs being in the way. You'll get a finer finish compared to using a wheel or brush abrasive enough that you felt the job got done in 10 seconds.

I find the suggestion to use abrasive power tools to clean up wheel hubs to be irresponsible. Sure, it is possible to do without detriment, but it opens the door to more significant mistakes and is not necessary.

You read like someone who hasn't done many brake jobs. It's not about necessary, it's about superior result. With any kind of refinishing job, on anything, you approach it based on the amount of material to remove, starting out more aggressive but finishing up with finer and finer abrasive method. If it's bad enough that the wheel won't come off then you're facing a different starting procedure than if you're just touching it up to keep rust at bay.

I steer clear of silicone greases wherever possible because it is nearly impossible to completely clean off of paint and other important surfaces. If some gets on a wheel or a fender then repainting/refinishing becomes all but impossible. This is a perfect use case for anti-seize containing zinc, as OP is using. The zinc dust in the antiseize is consumed before the aluminum in any corrosion-related reactions, saving the wheel, while the grease in the antiseize lubricates and seals the contacting surfaces. Silicone grease has no sacrificial zinc, and so only does half the job that zinc antiseize does in this use case.

I can't imagine how intoxicated someone would have to be to get it on paint while doing a brake job. If a high temperature rated anti-seize works for you, by all means go ahead and use it. I didn't state not to use it but silicone brake grease does work fine for me, and I already had it out because it's brake grease. Your theory about metal dust being consumed before aluminum isn't relevant, the silicone grease creates an air and water barrier. Did it not occur to you that it is not only I, but rather a lot of people who use it?

 

[mindless1]

It seems that we have multiple states of the wheels ranging from more to less corrosion and this could account for some contradictions, especially when scattered among multiple posts and posters.

1) The wheel or hub may be so rusted that it won't come off.

2) The wheel may come off but the drum won't, at least not easily.

3) The drum will come off but you still wish to to a touch-up.

4) Corrosion has been an issue in the past so previously it's been coated in silicone grease or anti-seize and no touch up is needed.

5) It's been coated in goop but needs minor corrosion removal, or too much goop was used so now it's caked with brake dust, so you have to

clean the goop off.

6) It hasn't corroded much at all, only needs a touch up if anything, and you're not using goop.


In the case of #1, you're not going to get enough rust off in 10 seconds to do it right, and initially a more abrasive method could be used, but soon switching to a less abrasive finishing method.

In the case of #2, you may use a brush to get enough off the hub to get the drum off, but a brush is poor at trying to do the inner circumference of the drum, its center hub mating surface, compared to sandpaper. A power tool wheel could start the refinishing but shouldn't be used for long. The result will still be better with a less abrasive sandpaper finish.

In the case of #3, you may not need anything but a low abrasive sand paper. It will leave a finer finish than a brush, removing less material. In these 3 cases, you get a superior result spending more time than 10 seconds because it's a progressive removal of material and observing the result, deciding whether it's done or needs more gradual removal.

#4 and 5 are opposites, 4 needing nothing and 5 needing the most time of all to clean goop off first. #5 is most common when you use a larger quantity of anti-seize compound, and if it has metal in it, you may not even be able to tell without cleaning it off first.

#6, if the corrosion is that slight, it only needs fine grit sandpaper, which will remove a more uniform layer than a power tool wheel or hand brushing. Trying to rush it done quickly can only leave a rougher surface. There's no way to remove material quickly and not leave a rougher surface.

Remember that we're not talking about spending a half hour on it, just enough time to switch to progressively finer abrasive methods depending on how much corrosion needs removed, and the removal rate slower the finer the abrasive. There is no wire brush or wheel, no matter what metal it's made of, that can produce as fine a uniform finish as sandpaper.

If you don't want to do that, it's your vehicle and you can do whatever you like, but spending less time you will end up with a rougher surface and will have to remove more material to get the parts to fit back together properly. Similarly you could even use a cloth wheel or hand polish the surfaces. We each choose how much time to put into progressively finer abrasive methods and the further you go, the more the time spent has diminishing returns. Spending several minutes going all the way to polishing them is a substantial increase in total time needed to do a brake job and is more about cosmetic than functional difference, while spending just one addt'l minute to finish them finer is a negligible increase in total job time.

 

[JCH13]

Okay, you were making some assumptions that it was literally 10s and a lot of material needed removal, perhaps a bad assumption. I've only ever needed a soft SS brush run around the inside of the hub a couple times to get a good wheel fit. I have never needed an abrasive material to get the job done well.

You also seemed to ignore that I suggested against the use of a powered flap wheel, and generalized to make it seem like I said using any sandpaper was bad. I never said that sandpaper by hand was a bad idea. I simply asked you to explain why you think it is needed top use sandpaper and have stated that I have never needed it for a good result. I can believe that some sandpaper will eventually result in a finer finish than some wire wheels. However, I will reiterate that I've never needed anything harsher than a soft SS wire brush to clean things for a good fit, and it only takes a few moments. What I have observed is that a soft wire brush will take off all of the loose surface material, leaving the base material of the wheel intact, including the wheel finish.

It's really easy for materials like grease and oil to get touch-transferred to somewhere else. It shouldn't happen if everything goes perfectly, no, but it would be really easy to get some on your hand when re-mounting the wheels and then touch the wheel, or a door handle, or a jack handle, etc. It's something I've seen happen before, and have never found the need to use silicone grease for anything on a car.

Oh, and just because a ton of people do something, doesn't mean that it is a good idea. People used to think that radium water was healthy.

 

[mindless1]

^ Silicone grease is preferred if not required in multiple areas on a vehicle, in varying viscosity depending on the application. Rubber wire loom boots, brake slider pins, distributor, spark plug wire boots, rubber trim, and more. Sometimes you just need the heat tolerance or sealing properties, while others it's because of a material that may not be resistant to petroleum greases and you want a wet lube instead of graphite.

It is not all that difficult to remove by wiping up the bulk of it with a soft towel then using a strong, hot detergent solution. On paint that might also strip a wax or sealant off, but I can't recall ever getting any silicone grease where it didn't belong.

Not only do a lot of people use it, they do so successfully.

 

[JCH13]

*shrug*

I use other rubber-safe lubricants, such as Boeshield, for boots and other rubber/electrical applications. None of my cars have distributors that need sealing. Slide pins can be done with moly or PTFE based greases (or other synthetics) that aren't silicone. I have yet to see an application where silicone grease MUST be used. There are even non-silicone dielectric greases available specifically because of its incompatibility/cleaning difficulty in paint/adhesive manufacturing environments.

If you have a cleaner that can take silicone oils COMPLETELY off, with the EDS test results to prove it, I would love to hear about it. Silicone oil contamination is so hard to clean up properly that at my day job we're not allowed to use anything with 'silicone' in it aside from platinum-cured silicone, which doesn't have any silicone oils.

A lot of people use zinc antiseize at wheel junctions successfully as well. I didn't say you were a bad person for suggesting silicone, nor that it didn't work, just that there are other options that result in the same or a superior outcome with less risk.

 

[mindless1]

Slider pins should not be done with petroleum based grease now that silicone exists. The only exception is if a prior maintenance incorrectly used petroleum based grease, then it should be cleaned out before using silicone.

Boeshield has horrible heat tolerance and few virtues besides lower dirt accumulation on bicycles and similar machines where delicate moving parts are exposed to such contamination. There is nowhere on an automobile that it's the right choice.

That non-silicone greases exist for special applications, in no way makes them better for apps where silicone greases are commonly used.

Whether you can get 100% or 99.(n) % of silicone off, matters not. What matters is common sense using it. For example water is damaging to paper, so I don't handle papers with wet hands. It's just common sense.

I complete dismiss any supposed risk factor in automotive applications, unless someone globs it directly onto brake pads, disc or drum friction surface, or puts such an obscene amount on the rotor hat that it squishes out onto the friction surface, but the same problem exists with anti-seize. On the contrary, silicone grease is often the superior choice when it's not a high speed metal to metal lubrication needed. It too, can and does have additives for particular purposes.

If you want to say that it doesn't come off as easily, that's yet another of its benefits. I can't recall many times that I put grease on something, wanting it to come off. Back in the day I would flush out and repack wheel bearings but that's going back 25+ years ago. Maybe chains on (whatever) but you don't find exposed chains in automotive except on bikes. Otherwise they're usually either belts or oil lubricated.

 

[JCH13]

I am not sure how to respond to someone who sidesteps my points or ignores them entirely...

First, I didn't say that petroleum greases should be used instead of silicone greases. Why are you putting words in my mouth or ignoring my point? It seems that you're trying really hard think of everything I say as wrong instead of actually considering it. Secondly, do you have a source that supports your claim that silicone greases should always be used in place of petroleum greases for slide pins?

Did I ever say that I used Boeshield where heat resistance was important? Again, you're putting words in my mouth to make me sound wrong. It is great for corrosion protection, water displacement, and helping to stop rubbers from 'drying out.'

The risks I referred to were painting and refinishing related, as mentioned earlier. I never said it was a safety risk, did I? Why did you jump to that? Even the tiniest layer of silicone oil or grease will ruin painting and refinishing operations. I tend to use non-silicone lubricants to completely side-step this concern. If you chose to address it by careful cleanliness practices, go for it.

If you care to slow down, read and consider what I've written, and have an intelligent conversation, I'd be happy to respond. However, if you keep going off the rails and inserting things that I never said, I'm just going to ignore you.

 

[mindless1]

I am not sure how to respond to someone who sidesteps my points or ignores them entirely...

First, I didn't say that petroleum greases should be used instead of silicone greases. Why are you putting words in my mouth or ignoring my point?

Your point seems to be an irrational fear of using silicone because of some dissimilar requirement at your place of employment, which definitely isn't doing brake jobs. If not petroleum greases instead of silicone, what type were you implying?

It seems that you're trying really hard think of everything I say as wrong instead of actually considering it. Secondly, do you have a source that supports your claim that silicone greases should always be used in place of petroleum greases for slide pins?

Google it? Literally, nobody recommends petroleum over silicone except possibly some very unique situation.

Did I ever say that I used Boeshield where heat resistance was important? Again, you're putting words in my mouth to make me sound wrong. It is great for corrosion protection, water displacement, and helping to stop rubbers from 'drying out.'

You introduced it into an automotive topic, where just about any automobile south of Canada will get too hot in summer for it to work well. It doesn't even work well at the things it's supposed to work well at, but merely beats other low cost alternatives when grime is present.

The risks I referred to were painting and refinishing related, as mentioned earlier. I never said it was a safety risk, did I? Why did you jump to that? Even the tiniest layer of silicone oil or grease will ruin painting and refinishing operations. I tend to use non-silicone lubricants to completely side-step this concern. If you chose to address it by careful cleanliness practices, go for it.

How is it a "risk" to paint? It is used in many paint sealants so the risk would seem to be that anywhere you accidentally left some behind, would not rust out as fast and then not match the rest of the (rusted) paint?

There could be a problem getting good paint adhesion if you got grease on something before you painted it, but that is not at all on topic, unless someone states they're going to paint an area they touched with their hand coated in silicone grease. Really? It's too far off topic to consider.

If you care to slow down, read and consider what I've written, and have an intelligent conversation, I'd be happy to respond. However, if you keep going off the rails and inserting things that I never said, I'm just going to ignore you.

Feel free to ignore me, but don't pretend it's only an intelligent conversation if I agree with the points you made in error. I'm usually more forgiving about such things, but brakes, no.

 

[JCH13]

Your point seems to be an irrational fear of using silicone because of some dissimilar requirement at your place of employment, which definitely isn't doing brake jobs. If not petroleum greases instead of silicone, what type were you implying?

Google it? Literally, nobody recommends petroleum over silicone except possibly some very unique situation.

I use Permatex brake slide grease, good to 400°F like many silicone-based greases. It is a synthetic brake slide grease that isn't silicone or petroleum based, it's an un-published proprietary formula. It has performed very well for me, I've used it on brakes that I and others get track time and race with. It is certainly nothing exotic or expensive but it works remarkably well. CRC also makes a synthetic brake lube that is silicone free, with the remarkably high operating temperature of 600°F. With greases like these I do not see why one would say 'silicone grease is the only choice.'

I was avoiding silicone greases long before I started working at my current employer because I knew they were so difficult to remove. I talked with friends (one of whom works in autobody) and learned from their experiences about what to avoid.

There is one significant reason why petroleum grease is not suitable for brake system use (which I'm surprised you didn't mention, unless you didn't know): petroleum greases can attack rubber. I honestly didn't know this until I did a little bit of research. But I found this article, and several others, noting that petroleum grease can cause failure of rubber seals and boots.

You introduced it into an automotive topic, where just about any automobile south of Canada will get too hot in summer for it to work well. It doesn't even work well at the things it's supposed to work well at, but merely beats other low cost alternatives when grime is present.

Boeshield's boiling point is 350-611°F per the SDS. No decomposition temperature is listed, so presumably it's good to at least 350°F, which is more than adequate for most under-hood situations. What have you seen/read that would indicate poor performance at or below these temperatures?

How is it a "risk" to paint? It is used in many paint sealants so the risk would seem to be that anywhere you accidentally left some behind, would not rust out as fast and then not match the rest of the (rusted) paint?

There could be a problem getting good paint adhesion if you got grease on something before you painted it, but that is not at all on topic, unless someone states they're going to paint an area they touched with their hand coated in silicone grease. Really? It's too far off topic to consider.

Silicone is so tenacious (which can be great in some applications) than mechanical, and most forms of chemical, removal are ineffective. This can lead to the silicone material causing smearing and swirling on paint during detailing/waxing/buffing operations. Noted here and summarized here. If any paint rework is needed, silicones can cause defects in the paint. Not every-day sort of issues, but they can be a pain in the ass if buffing or painting is needed.

Feel free to ignore me, but don't pretend it's only an intelligent conversation if I agree with the points you made in error. I'm usually more forgiving about such things, but brakes, no.

I am not asking you to agree with me, merely to consider what I'm actually saying instead of strawman arguments and ad hominem attacks. I'd also appreciate some sources rather than you just saying 'you know it, i know it, everybody knows it' when you're presenting something as a general fact.

Perhaps I should cut straight to the point - there is a small risk that any silicone grease will damage or negatively affect my cars' bodywork. Several inexpensive and very effective non-silicone brake slide greases exist, making it essentially no effort and no compromise to avoid silicone entirely, so I do. One might argue that silicone would never present in the failure mode that I'm worried about, but that is irrelevant because I am jumping through no hoops to avoid it. It's a zero-cost decision with a zero-to-significantly positive payback; easily made!