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Alternatives to electric resistance heat- ventless propane?

N

nedfunnell

Senior member
The home I rent has 'dual electric' heat- a heat pump that operates until it gets too cold outside, then resistance heating that kicks on. Essentially, a giant space heater for the whole house. It's expensive to run, even with the cheap electricity here in Kentucky. As the cold weather comes, I am thinking about alternatives to just sucking it up and paying high bills. Additionally, I would like to have some kind of backup heat for when the power goes out. Note that I am a renter; so unfortunately, adding a wood-burning stove or anything else that involves permanent modification is out. Ventless propane heaters are one thing I've considered. Has anyone here used one? How do they compare, cost-wise, to electric heat? Any other suggestions?
 
nedfunnell said:
The home I rent has 'dual electric' heat- a heat pump that operates until it gets too cold outside, then resistance heating that kicks on. Essentially, a giant space heater for the whole house. It's expensive to run, even with the cheap electricity here in Kentucky. As the cold weather comes, I am thinking about alternatives to just sucking it up and paying high bills. Additionally, I would like to have some kind of backup heat for when the power goes out. Note that I am a renter; so unfortunately, adding a wood-burning stove or anything else that involves permanent modification is out. Ventless propane heaters are one thing I've considered. Has anyone here used one? How do they compare, cost-wise, to electric heat? Any other suggestions?
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i would avoid propane if at all possible...its more problem than solution IMHO. Do you like to keep the place very warm...maybe wear a sweater?
 
cbrsurfr said:
I have this: http://www.northerntool.com/shop/to...ci_sku=19857&gclid=CMCR2dm1rMECFbRzMgodxG0A-Q

Dual fuel so NG or propane. Comes with feet so it can be free standing instead of wall mount. I have the optional fan to help move the heat. I have it in my garage but I've heard of people using these indoors instead of wood stoves or in basements, etc...
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I've looked at heaters like that. If I wanted to bring it inside, could I just hook it up to a 20lb BBQ tank, or do I need to plumb line from an outside tank?
 
nedfunnell said:
I've looked at heaters like that. If I wanted to bring it inside, could I just hook it up to a 20lb BBQ tank, or do I need to plumb line from an outside tank?
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Check the legalities of having a 20lb tank in your house. In NH it's not okay. If it burned down, and your tank was present, I bet much of liability could land on you. There's a reason why stores say: "absolutely no used or filled propane tanks inside."
 
maybe your best bet is something like this in the room you are in.

http://www.northerntool.com/shop/tools/product_200612562_200612562?cm_mmc=Bing-{adtype}-_-Heaters, Stoves + Fireplaces-_-Electric Heaters-_-37936

radiant will make you feel much warmer than the heat pump blowing air around. it heats the things instead of the air.
 
DominionSeraph said:
Seems to help a bit in general livability. It's not the difference new windows make, but it can help make old windows not suck so bad.
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Did you notice any difference on your bill? Can you expand on what you mean by general livability? Do you mean reduction of drafts and cold spots, or...?
 
LTC8K6 said:
The helper heating coils should not be driving your electric bill way up. I would get the system checked out.

http://precisioncomfort.com/2012/02/is-your-heat-pump-running-non-stop/
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Hmm. I had a little fiasco with installing a thermostat last winter and went through the drama of having the coils be the only heat source for a few weeks- from installation until when I saw the bill! It was still expensive after I got that straightened out, though. The bitterest part of winter was over so I actually physically disconnected the resistance heating coils inside the furnace. My bills were still about double my 'baseline' months, like this past month where the weather is such that the HVAC is just off. My system is from 2007, and probably a contractor-special cheap one, so maybe it's just not as efficient?
 
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nedfunnell said:
Hmm. I had a little fiasco with installing a thermostat last winter and went through the drama of having the coils be the only heat source for a few weeks- from installation until when I saw the bill! It was still expensive after I got that straightened out, though. The bitterest part of winter was over so I actually physically disconnected the resistance heating coils inside the furnace. My bills were still about double my 'baseline' months, like this past month where the weather is such that the HVAC is just off. My system is from 2007, and probably a contractor-special cheap one, so maybe it's just not as efficient?
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Do electric rates change with season in your area?

When you say "double" are we talking going from $40 to $80 or $120 to $240?

I would expect your electric bill to spike when heating with electric... even just partially. See this chart: http://www.nh.gov/oep/energy/energy-nh/fuel-prices/index.htm
 
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Yea what is your electric bill summer vs winter? How old is the heat pump and its efficiency rating?
Also have you updated the insulation, checked for air leaks near the doors/windows, change your air filter, etc...
 
Jimzz said:
Yea what is your electric bill summer vs winter? How old is the heat pump and its efficiency rating?
Also have you updated the insulation, checked for air leaks near the doors/windows, change your air filter, etc...
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This is a very good idea. Some states offer pretty good incentives to get an energy audit, including thermography, even on rental places.
 
nedfunnell said:
Did you notice any difference on your bill? Can you expand on what you mean by general livability? Do you mean reduction of drafts and cold spots, or...?
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Reduction in drafts. The air is just a bit more settled with them.
As for money, there's no way to pinpoint savings. In the 4 years or so I've used them we've had a mild winter, a severe winter, and a new furnace put in.
 
JCH13 said:
Do electric rates change with season in your area?

When you say "double" are we talking going from $40 to $80 or $120 to $240?

I would expect your electric bill to spike when heating with electric... even just partially. See this chart: http://www.nh.gov/oep/energy/energy-nh/fuel-prices/index.htm
Click to expand...
During no-HVAC months my bill ranges from 55-70. This past winter, bills were more like 160. One month was 200, that was the month I screwed up the thermostat install.
 
JCH13 said:
This is a very good idea. Some states offer pretty good incentives to get an energy audit, including thermography, even on rental places.
Click to expand...

I actually had a home energy audit done last month. It was neat to watch them use the IR imaging gun, but if I hadn't watched it, I wouldn't have seen where my trouble spots were, since the report I got on the mail was pretty basic. Mostly the home is pretty tight, but not perfect. The tech called it slightly better than expected for its age (2007). I still need to do the sealing work- attic access door, plumbing penetrations on outside walls, and bathroom vent fans were the big ones. Some recessed lighting was troublesome, too.

Insulation is a bit of a non-starter since I rent. I would not recoup that quickly enough to justify.
 
nedfunnell said:
During no-HVAC months my bill ranges from 55-70. This past winter, bills were more like 160. One month was 200, that was the month I screwed up the thermostat install.
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Add in the cost of running your HVAC blower... that's non-trivial, and the motor power of your heat pump. That might account for a good portion of the cost difference.
 
nedfunnell said:
By the way, this was the clincher on no savings with propane:
http://www.erpud.com/comparison.htm

Natural gas is the way to go, but I'm not plumbed for it.
Click to expand...

That comparison uses 8.5cents per kWhr for electricity. I wish I got electricity that cheap! For many areas in the US propane is still significantly cheaper than electricity.

electricity-prices-by-state-map-2012-med.jpg
 
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