Alright this is getting ridiculous

blackangst1

Lifer
Feb 23, 2005
22,902
2,359
126
This is unbelievable. Whats next? If youre damaged in an earthquake sue for damages? Or a hurricane? WTF! In this very heated debate about how much or how little we contribute, to be able to sue for damage due to climate change is laughable. I hope this bill dies in commitee.

http://www.foxnews.com/politic...l-warming-victims-sue/

The Washington Times reports that a provision in a bill authored by Democratic Reps. Henry Waxman of California and Edward Markey of Massachusetts would allow global warming victims to sue.

An under-the-radar provision in a House climate bill would give plaintiffs who claim to be victims of global warming a way to sue the federal government or businesses, according to a report Friday in The Washington Times.

The Times reported that Democratic Reps. Henry Waxman of California and Edward Markey of Massachusetts added it into a bill they authored.

The provision, which was just released, reportedly would set grounds for plaintiffs who has "suffered" or expect to suffer "harm" attributable at least in part to government inaction. The provision defines "harm" as "any effect of air pollution (including climate change)," according to the Times. Plaintiffs could seek up to $75,000 in damages a year from the government, with $1.5 million being the maximum total payout.

The Times reported that Waxman is trying to accelerate passage for the bill through his committee, as the Senate begins drafting its own version.

Bill Allows Citizens to Sue for Climate Change Damages

Friday, April 10, 2009 12:11 PM

By: Dave Eberhart Article Font Size



"Victims" of climate change would be able to sue the federal government or private businesses over greenhouse gas emissions under language buried in the House climate bill, according to a report in the Washington Times.

Under the provision, anyone "who has suffered, or reasonably expects to suffer, a harm attributable, in whole or in part," to government inaction to file a "citizen suit."

The term ?harm? is broadly defined as ?any effect of air pollution (including climate change), currently occurring or at risk of occurring.?

The United Nations scientific panel studying climate change predicts in its latest report that the global climate is likely to rise between 3.5 and 8 degrees Fahrenheit if the carbon dioxide concentration in the atmosphere reaches twice the level of 1750.

By 2100, sea levels are likely to rise between 7 to 23 inches, it said, and the changes now underway will continue for centuries to come, according to a report in the New York Times.

If the worst case climate scenario comes to pass and the House provision makes its way into the final climate bill signed by the President, lawyers may be in for a field day of litigation.

?You could be spawning lawsuits at almost any place [climate-change modeling] computers place at harm?s risk,? Bill Kovacs, energy lobbyist for the U.S. Chamber of Commerce, told the Times.

There are set limits, however, to the potential windfalls for the lawyers and their citizen clients.

As presently written, the bill would cap the damages culled from the government at $75,000 each year for each individual suit.

Expansion of the Clean Air Act to allow ?citizen suits? on climate change has long been a goal among environmental groups ? although the measure has never succeeded. One theory pres3ented by advocates is that the citizen suits will force compliance on the part of a sometimes recalcitrant government.

According to the Washington Times report, under the House bill, if a judge rules against the government, new rules would have to be put in play to correct the problems associated with climate change.

If a judge rules against a company, it would have to purchase additional "carbon emission allowances" through a cap-and-trade established by Congress.

According to the U.S. Environmental Protection Agency, cap-and-trade systems can be best summed up as ?pollution credits.? Overall air quality goals are set for an area and specific sources of air pollution (such as power plants, waste incineration facilities, etc.) are given a certain number of allowances, which represent the amount of various pollutants that the organization or facility is allowed to discharge.

Facilities that come in under that allowable limit because of air pollution control systems can then sell their leftover allowances to other facilities and organizations on the open market. This allows the facilities that buy up such allowances (pollution credits) to pollute more, because other facilities are polluting less.

Whatever the resolution of one of these citizen suits, the total amount paid out each year is capped at $1.5 million per individual case, committee staff told the Washington Times.

David Doniger, senior counsel with the Natural Resources Defense Council, said the House bill provision follows a key environmental ruling from the Supreme Court allowing states to sue the federal government for damages from climate change ? largely because of eroded shorelines caused by rising sea levels.

That landmark decision, however, did not set the groundwork for individual citizens to file lawsuits.


 
Oct 25, 2006
11,036
11
91
I wish to sue on the grounds that the United states is allowing our atmosphere to remain permeable to UV rays and is allowing us to get skin cancer. We need to pollute more and make an impenetrable wall of athmospheric soot that will keep me safe from skin cancer
 

IronWing

No Lifer
Jul 20, 2001
72,648
33,484
136
Allowing citizens to sue the government to force agencies to follow the law, their own agency regulations, and policies is a time honored tradition and a provision found in many federal laws. It is a method by which Congress can ensure that the executive branch obeys the law w/o having Congressional micro-management. It is unlikely anyone would collect damages but it is a method to bring wayward agencies into line by giving judges the power to smack them upside the head.
 

Harvey

Administrator<br>Elite Member
Oct 9, 1999
35,057
67
91
What else would you expect from rags like Rupert Murdoch's Faux News and Sun Yung Moon's Washington Times other than bluster and bullshit over nothing.

Unless I'm missing something, even without this bill, anyone suing under it would have to establish causality and specific damages caused by the party or parties being sued.

Faux and the Washington Times have contributed far more than their share to gloabl warming with all the hot air and noxious gas they spew. :roll:
 

bbdub333

Senior member
Aug 21, 2007
684
0
0
Originally posted by: Harvey
What else would you expect from rags like Rupert Murdoch's Faux News and Sun Yung Moon's Washington Times other than bluster and bullshit over nothing.

Unless I'm missing something, even without this bill, anyone suing under it would have to establish causality and specific damages caused by the party or parties being sued.

Faux and the Washington Times have contributed far more than their share to gloabl warming with all the hot air and noxious gas they spew. :roll:

You should write another shitty song about it
 

blackangst1

Lifer
Feb 23, 2005
22,902
2,359
126
Originally posted by: Harvey
What else would you expect from rags like Rupert Murdoch's Faux News and Sun Yung Moon's Washington Times other than bluster and bullshit over nothing.

Unless I'm missing something, even without this bill, anyone suing under it would have to establish causality and specific damages caused by the party or parties being sued.

Faux and the Washington Times have contributed far more than their share to gloabl warming with all the hot air and noxious gas they spew. :roll:

Thanks on that brilliant commentary on the content! Shooting the messenger is always a good tactic.
 

BrownTown

Diamond Member
Dec 1, 2005
5,314
1
0
It's gonna be amazing by the time its all said and done how much money this country spends on the "global warming problem", if the legislation already begin debated is passed it will be like 500 Billion dollars a year to pay for global warming. Not to mention the fact that China produces more CO2 than the USA, European Union, and Japan combined, so the rate of CO2 emissions will continue to go open even if the USA shuts down every coal plant and stop driving cars all together. Really the only way the USA could reduce CO2 emissions is to go start a nuclear war. WE need to quit worrying about hypothetical dangers to polar bears and start worrying about how to ensure a future for our families where the USA isn't a third world country.
 

sandorski

No Lifer
Oct 10, 1999
70,749
6,319
126
Originally posted by: bbdub333
Originally posted by: Harvey
What else would you expect from rags like Rupert Murdoch's Faux News and Sun Yung Moon's Washington Times other than bluster and bullshit over nothing.

Unless I'm missing something, even without this bill, anyone suing under it would have to establish causality and specific damages caused by the party or parties being sued.

Faux and the Washington Times have contributed far more than their share to gloabl warming with all the hot air and noxious gas they spew. :roll:

You should write another shitty song about it

...and you should be Banned for being Worthless. Ad Hominens are off topic.
 

sandorski

No Lifer
Oct 10, 1999
70,749
6,319
126
The only way something like this would ever work is if Government pretty much refused to deal with the issue. I suspect this is an attempt to prevent another Bush Admin level of Neglect.
 

Ronstang

Lifer
Jul 8, 2000
12,493
18
81
Are they adding a provision to a bill somewhere allowing citizens the right to sue the government/businesses for damages resulting from illegal immigrants?
 

Fern

Elite Member
Sep 30, 2003
26,907
174
106
Originally posted by: sandorski
The only way something like this would ever work is if Government pretty much refused to deal with the issue. I suspect this is an attempt to prevent another Bush Admin level of Neglect.

Interesting observation given the Dems control the Exec office (Presidency) and both houses of Congress.

Fern
 

IronWing

No Lifer
Jul 20, 2001
72,648
33,484
136
Originally posted by: Fern
Originally posted by: sandorski
The only way something like this would ever work is if Government pretty much refused to deal with the issue. I suspect this is an attempt to prevent another Bush Admin level of Neglect.

Interesting observation given the Dems control the Exec office (Presidency) and both houses of Congress.

Fern

People have poor memories and an endless capacity for stupidity; the Republicans can win again.
 

Fern

Elite Member
Sep 30, 2003
26,907
174
106
Originally posted by: ironwing
Originally posted by: Fern
Originally posted by: sandorski
The only way something like this would ever work is if Government pretty much refused to deal with the issue. I suspect this is an attempt to prevent another Bush Admin level of Neglect.

Interesting observation given the Dems control the Exec office (Presidency) and both houses of Congress.

Fern

People have poor memories and an endless capacity for stupidity; the Republicans can win again.

Ahh... Another one who believes this is 'aimed' at the Repubs.

So, the Dems are in (major) power for 4 years, and likely 8 - you mean they (Dems) aren't going to fix this by then? Or, is this some weird effort to impose 'self-discipline' so they motivate themselves while in power for so long to do something? Is that really necessary?

Looks like another 'bone' to trial lawyers to me. Do we really need to handle this using trial lawyers? Is that the best way? Or is this another way to spell 'c.a.m.p.a.i.g.n. c.o.n.t.r.i.b.u.t.i.o.n.s"?

The Dems first idea was to solve MMGW by taxing it (cap-n-trade), now they wanna 'sue it' too. Bwuhahahaha. I guess that's what we get for combining policiticians and lawyers (most politicians are lawyers).

I think they oughtta just tax 'terrorism', that'll get rid of it!!!

Fern
 

Fern

Elite Member
Sep 30, 2003
26,907
174
106
Originally posted by: Harvey
What else would you expect from rags like Rupert Murdoch's Faux News and Sun Yung Moon's Washington Times other than bluster and bullshit over nothing.

Unless I'm missing something, even without this bill, anyone suing under it would have to establish causality and specific damages caused by the party or parties being sued.

Faux and the Washington Times have contributed far more than their share to gloabl warming with all the hot air and noxious gas they spew. :roll:

See underlined portioned above- Normally I'd agree with you (and we still need to see the language in the bill to verify), but note the quoted portions I display below:

Under the provision, anyone "who has suffered, or reasonably expects to suffer, a harm attributable, in whole or in part," to government inaction to file a "citizen suit."

The term ?harm? is broadly defined as ?any effect of air pollution (including climate change), currently occurring or at risk of occurring.?

I.e., you don't have to prove that damages have ocurred, just hat you expect them to. Wonder who gets to judge that?

And who is gonna be sued?

"Victims" of climate change would be able to sue the federal government or private businesses over greenhouse gas emissions under language buried in the House climate bill, according to a report in the Washington Times.

Again, need to see the bill (ATM, I'm a bit busy with tax returns) but look whose liability is capped:

As presently written, the bill would cap the damages culled from the government at $75,000 each year for each individual suit.

I wonder if that cap applies to busineses too?

Ohhh, Cool! Look, if the business is 'guilty' they (meaining us) gotta pay more TAXES:

If a judge rules against a company, it would have to purchase additional "carbon emission allowances" through a cap-and-trade established by Congress.

Fern
 

dphantom

Diamond Member
Jan 14, 2005
4,763
327
126
Originally posted by: Harvey
What else would you expect from rags like Rupert Murdoch's Faux News and Sun Yung Moon's Washington Times other than bluster and bullshit over nothing.

Unless I'm missing something, even without this bill, anyone suing under it would have to establish causality and specific damages caused by the party or parties being sued.

Faux and the Washington Times have contributed far more than their share to gloabl warming with all the hot air and noxious gas they spew. :roll:

I would say you are in good company with them and if we could measure such pollution, you may even exceed their output.
 

BrownTown

Diamond Member
Dec 1, 2005
5,314
1
0
I'm just going to go right and and say it:

I think 95% of this "global warming" bullshit has nothing to do with science or the environment, its a bunch of liberals who just plain don't like big business. For whatever reason they consider big business to be "evil" and want to do whatever it takes to bring big businesses down. However the fact of the matter is that 99% of people who work at big businesses aren't rich CEOs, they are just regular guys like everyone else here, and when you try to bring down big business you really aint hurting the millionaire CEO, you are hurting all of US. And TBH it just makes me want to punch most environmentalists in the face because they would be happy to put me and everyone I know out of a job. Not to mention they want to double our electricity bills which increases the cost of EVERYTHING. Look, the price of hurting the environment should be considered, but it can't be the ONLY consideration, you got to include people in there too.
 

sandorski

No Lifer
Oct 10, 1999
70,749
6,319
126
Originally posted by: BrownTown
I'm just going to go right and and say it:

I think 95% of this "global warming" bullshit has nothing to do with science or the environment, its a bunch of liberals who just plain don't like big business. For whatever reason they consider big business to be "evil" and want to do whatever it takes to bring big businesses down. However the fact of the matter is that 99% of people who work at big businesses aren't rich CEOs, they are just regular guys like everyone else here, and when you try to bring down big business you really aint hurting the millionaire CEO, you are hurting all of US. And TBH it just makes me want to punch most environmentalists in the face because they would be happy to put me and everyone I know out of a job. Not to mention they want to double our electricity bills which increases the cost of EVERYTHING. Look, the price of hurting the environment should be considered, but it can't be the ONLY consideration, you got to include people in there too.

You are far from the first, but you said it. Now what? Accounting for Environmental Cost will not be easy and will cause Pain, but it needs to be done. Going on like it's a Conspiracy to destroy the Economy is utter nonsense.
 

Harvey

Administrator<br>Elite Member
Oct 9, 1999
35,057
67
91
Originally posted by: bbdub333

You should write another shitty song about it

I'll consider your idea sometime after you can write even one song, shitty or otherwise. Until then, try posting about the topic.
 

piasabird

Lifer
Feb 6, 2002
17,168
60
91
How about suing the idiot EPA for forcing me to get my car inspected every year, and theatening to cancel my Driver's license. It was also the EPA who forced companies to put the MTB's in the Gasoline that pollute the groundwater. This is all the EPA's fault. Inspecting cars for compliance to air standards is a big joke. It is not making the Air any Cleaner. They could save a lot of money and just buy back some older cars that are polluting at 100 times the rate of a normal car. You see these junkers all the time going down the road with black smoke pouring our of their tail pipe.

With most cars that are less than 10 years old there should be no reason for any kind of an environmental inspection. This is just a giant hassle and an excuse to hassle honest automobile owners. This is an example of the government turning into fascist Nazi's!
 

BrownTown

Diamond Member
Dec 1, 2005
5,314
1
0
Originally posted by: sandorski
You are far from the first, but you said it. Now what? Accounting for Environmental Cost will not be easy and will cause Pain, but it needs to be done. Going on like it's a Conspiracy to destroy the Economy is utter nonsense.

IT doesn't matter whether killing the economy is their intent or not, that's what WILL happen no matter the intentions. Really it doesn't matter all that much to me whether these people are a bunch of commies trying to bring us down or a bunch of virtuous people trying to save the planet, it is RESULTS that matter, not people uniformed good intentions. The fact of the matter is for every 1 person that might be saved by stopping global warming 1000 could have been saved by spending that money on healthcare or fighting poverty and crime.
 

sandorski

No Lifer
Oct 10, 1999
70,749
6,319
126
Originally posted by: BrownTown
Originally posted by: sandorski
You are far from the first, but you said it. Now what? Accounting for Environmental Cost will not be easy and will cause Pain, but it needs to be done. Going on like it's a Conspiracy to destroy the Economy is utter nonsense.

IT doesn't matter whether killing the economy is their intent or not, that's what WILL happen no matter the intentions. Really it doesn't matter all that much to me whether these people are a bunch of commies trying to bring us down or a bunch of virtuous people trying to save the planet, it is RESULTS that matter, not people uniformed good intentions. The fact of the matter is for every 1 person that might be saved by stopping global warming 1000 could have been saved by spending that money on healthcare or fighting poverty and crime.

Not really. During the Clinton Admin, the Economic Cost of meeting the goals of the Kyoto Protocol was estimated as < $400 Billion. Pundits and Politicians were pulling their hair out over such a number, basically saying what you are saying now about Economic disasters and utter Destruction. That all seems rather humorous now given what has happened this last decade.
 

BrownTown

Diamond Member
Dec 1, 2005
5,314
1
0
Originally posted by: sandorski
Originally posted by: BrownTown
Originally posted by: sandorski
You are far from the first, but you said it. Now what? Accounting for Environmental Cost will not be easy and will cause Pain, but it needs to be done. Going on like it's a Conspiracy to destroy the Economy is utter nonsense.

IT doesn't matter whether killing the economy is their intent or not, that's what WILL happen no matter the intentions. Really it doesn't matter all that much to me whether these people are a bunch of commies trying to bring us down or a bunch of virtuous people trying to save the planet, it is RESULTS that matter, not people uniformed good intentions. The fact of the matter is for every 1 person that might be saved by stopping global warming 1000 could have been saved by spending that money on healthcare or fighting poverty and crime.

Not really. During the Clinton Admin, the Economic Cost of meeting the goals of the Kyoto Protocol was estimated as < $400 Billion. Pundits and Politicians were pulling their hair out over such a number, basically saying what you are saying now about Economic disasters and utter Destruction. That all seems rather humorous now given what has happened this last decade.

What has happened since then that you think has changed that? I'm not sure what you are trying to get at here. The cost is EXTREMELY high, and the levels that many people are talking about go FAR FAR past Kyoto. And its not like its a one time cost, you have to pay extra every single year because you are using methods which cost far more. The costs estimates for what the democrats are proposed is 400 Billion a YEAR from now until the end of time (or at least until the cost of renewable power is cut in half).

And where I live its FAAR worse, we are not blessed with very good solar or wind resources (and the few places which are good for wind are illegal to build on because the ENVIRONMENTALISTS won't let you build wind tower up on top of the ridge lines). Where I live what we have to do is buy bull shit carbon credits from wind farms in South Dakota, basically totaling a 500 million dollars a year leaving my state of Tennessee and gong to South Dakota because the law says we have to.

Its a good thing I'm not running the utilities though because instead of buying the carbon credits I would just shut down all the coal plants and let everyone sit in the dark until they rethought their position on the matter.
 

sandorski

No Lifer
Oct 10, 1999
70,749
6,319
126
Originally posted by: BrownTown
Originally posted by: sandorski
Originally posted by: BrownTown
Originally posted by: sandorski
You are far from the first, but you said it. Now what? Accounting for Environmental Cost will not be easy and will cause Pain, but it needs to be done. Going on like it's a Conspiracy to destroy the Economy is utter nonsense.

IT doesn't matter whether killing the economy is their intent or not, that's what WILL happen no matter the intentions. Really it doesn't matter all that much to me whether these people are a bunch of commies trying to bring us down or a bunch of virtuous people trying to save the planet, it is RESULTS that matter, not people uniformed good intentions. The fact of the matter is for every 1 person that might be saved by stopping global warming 1000 could have been saved by spending that money on healthcare or fighting poverty and crime.

Not really. During the Clinton Admin, the Economic Cost of meeting the goals of the Kyoto Protocol was estimated as < $400 Billion. Pundits and Politicians were pulling their hair out over such a number, basically saying what you are saying now about Economic disasters and utter Destruction. That all seems rather humorous now given what has happened this last decade.

What has happened since then that you think has changed that? I'm not sure what you are trying to get at here. The cost is EXTREMELY high, and the levels that many people are talking about go FAR FAR past Kyoto. And its not like its a one time cost, you have to pay extra every single year because you are using methods which cost far more. The costs estimates for what the democrats are proposed is 400 Billion a YEAR from now until the end of time (or at least until the cost of renewable power is cut in half).

And where I live its FAAR worse, we are not blessed with very good solar or wind resources (and the few places which are good for wind are illegal to build on because the ENVIRONMENTALISTS won't let you build wind tower up on top of the ridge lines). Where I live what we have to do is buy bull shit carbon credits from wind farms in South Dakota, basically totaling a 500 million dollars a year leaving my state of Tennessee and gong to South Dakota because the law says we have to.

Its a good thing I'm not running the utilities though because instead of buying the carbon credits I would just shut down all the coal plants and let everyone sit in the dark until they rethought their position on the matter.

:laugh:

$400billion/year? Meh, you gotta back that up.

 

3chordcharlie

Diamond Member
Mar 30, 2004
9,859
1
81
Originally posted by: BrownTown
Originally posted by: sandorski
You are far from the first, but you said it. Now what? Accounting for Environmental Cost will not be easy and will cause Pain, but it needs to be done. Going on like it's a Conspiracy to destroy the Economy is utter nonsense.

IT doesn't matter whether killing the economy is their intent or not, that's what WILL happen no matter the intentions. Really it doesn't matter all that much to me whether these people are a bunch of commies trying to bring us down or a bunch of virtuous people trying to save the planet, it is RESULTS that matter, not people uniformed good intentions. The fact of the matter is for every 1 person that might be saved by stopping global warming 1000 could have been saved by spending that money on healthcare or fighting poverty and crime.

That's the 'fact of the matter' is it?

The 'fact of the matter' is the suitability of our planet as a habitat for people is degrading over time, and we are making it happen.

If we find a way to account for environmental factors within a market framework, then we will have the opportunity to keep livin here. If we fail to do so, the long-run outlook is pretty poor.
 

retrospooty

Platinum Member
Apr 3, 2002
2,031
74
86
ugh... getting rediculous ? The sue happy law system in this country has been rediculous for decades.

My wife and I just had lunch yesterday with a couple. The wife is a bar registered atourney that works for the state. Her sole job purpose - to defend the state against lawsuits from inmates. They are allowed to sue for things like not getting kosher meals and other such frivolous crap. Rediculous.