Alec Baldwin shoots and kills a woman, injures a man.

Page 30 - Seeking answers? Join the AnandTech community: where nearly half-a-million members share solutions and discuss the latest tech.

Bitek

Lifer
Aug 2, 2001
10,546
5,061
136
That makes all the difference.
If behaving like a fking idiot were a defense, the jails would be much emptier

"Criminal Negligent Homicide

Criminal negligent homicide (more commonly referred to as “Involuntary Manslaughter” and also referred to as “Negligent Homicide”) is a crime of causing another's death through criminal negligence. Criminal negligence involves more than ordinary carelessness, inattention or mistake in judgment.

A person acts with criminal negligence when:

He or she acts in a reckless way that creates a high risk of death or great bodily injury; and

A reasonable person would have known that acting in that way would create such a risk
."
 

ivwshane

Lifer
May 15, 2000
31,267
13,040
136
And if Guns didn’t exist we’d have a lot less murders./eye roll

I think it’s ironic that gun nutters are chiming in about what reasonable people would do.

If behaving like a fking idiot were a defense, the jails would be much emptier

"Criminal Negligent Homicide

Criminal negligent homicide (more commonly referred to as “Involuntary Manslaughter” and also referred to as “Negligent Homicide”) is a crime of causing another's death through criminal negligence. Criminal negligence involves more than ordinary carelessness, inattention or mistake in judgment.

A person acts with criminal negligence when:

He or she acts in a reckless way that creates a high risk of death or great bodily injury; and

A reasonable person would have known that acting in that way would create such a risk
."
 

pmv

Lifer
May 30, 2008
11,553
6,408
136
If it had been John Wayne instead of AB he would have never started a thread and would have argued that it was not JW’s fault.
Given the aftermath of the making of "The Conquerer", it's arguable that John Wayne was himself a victim of poor movie-making managerial decisions (I guess that situation would have been an even tougher case for a court to rule on than this one...to be honest, I'm very glad I'm not on the jury for this, seems as if it's gong to require paying very close attention to the descriptions of both the facts and the law, plus a lot of hard thinking about precedents and the law to come up with a verdict).
 

sandorski

No Lifer
Oct 10, 1999
69,516
4,933
126
If behaving like a fking idiot were a defense, the jails would be much emptier

"Criminal Negligent Homicide

Criminal negligent homicide (more commonly referred to as “Involuntary Manslaughter” and also referred to as “Negligent Homicide”) is a crime of causing another's death through criminal negligence. Criminal negligence involves more than ordinary carelessness, inattention or mistake in judgment.

A person acts with criminal negligence when:

He or she acts in a reckless way that creates a high risk of death or great bodily injury; and

A reasonable person would have known that acting in that way would create such a risk
."
Pointing and Shooting was part of his job. He didn't just randomly grab a gun and start playing with it, playing with it was part of what he was doing.
 

zinfamous

No Lifer
Jul 12, 2006
109,243
26,803
146
You mean you think i should be crusading to curtail and limit the rights of US citizens so you could feel a bit more secure for no reason at all ? No thanks.
"taj speak" = only good kid is a grenaded kid. failing that....shot to holy hell by a patriotic white child with daddy's (or mommy's!--bonus for patriot mom's, y'all!) murder pistols, for sure! Let's get some!
 

Paratus

Lifer
Jun 4, 2004
15,941
11,559
146
It's no more possible than your car sometimes randomly moving in reverse when you put in first gear, or your watch hands moving backwards some days, or voting machines randomly turning Trump votes into Biden.

The hammer and trigger mechanisms are based on clockwork motifs.

He handled a loaded gun
Hammer was cocked
Safety not engaged
Weapon was directly pointed at someone
Trigger was pulled

Concluding otherwise it's fantasy.

Focus on explaining that why it's not a criminal act, even if he didn't mean to.

He handled a loaded gun - Here’s your cold gun Mr Baldwin
Hammer was cocked - Our scene is you pulling a cross draw
Safety not engaged - Quick draw the pistol
Weapon was directly pointed at someone - And point it at the camera.
Trigger was pulled - There were reports of two accidental firings prior to this incident

Some of you have never been part of a failure analysis and it shows.
 
Jul 9, 2009
10,688
2,047
136
He handled a loaded gun - Here’s your cold gun Mr Baldwin
Hammer was cocked - Our scene is you pulling a cross draw
Safety not engaged - Quick draw the pistol
Weapon was directly pointed at someone - And point it at the camera.
Trigger was pulled - There were reports of two accidental firings prior to this incident

Some of you have never been part of a failure analysis and it shows.
1. The person authorized to hand him a "cold gun", not only wasn't the person who handed it to him, but not the person he hired to be the armorer.
2. There was no reason in a rehearsal for him to cock the gun.
3. Hate to tell you, but that revolver doesn't have a safety.
4. There was no reason for him to point it at his 2 victims.
5. There had already been 2 negligent discharges on the set, reasonable care would have kept him from pointing the firearm at a person and pulling the trigger.
 

Vic

Elite Member
Jun 12, 2001
49,599
12,166
136
1. The person authorized to hand him a "cold gun", not only wasn't the person who handed it to him, but not the person he hired to be the armorer.
2. There was no reason in a rehearsal for him to cock the gun.
3. Hate to tell you, but that revolver doesn't have a safety.
4. There was no reason for him to point it at his 2 victims.
5. There had already been 2 negligent discharges on the set, reasonable care would have kept him from pointing the firearm at a person and pulling the trigger.
And you received your relevant experience in workplace safety on production sets.. when?

It never ceases to amaze me how at the heart of right-wing populism is the belief that right-wingers can claim to know more than all the experts on any random subject despite a complete lack of relevant education, experience, or training.

You don't.

You don't know more about climate than the scientists.

You don't know more about vaccines than the doctors.

And you don't know more about workplace safety than the people who specialize in workplace safety.

That you think you do is just your ego. Which I wouldn't care about except for it how it makes you so easily susceptible to propaganda and manipulation.
 
Last edited:
Jul 9, 2009
10,688
2,047
136
And you received your relevant experience in workplace safety on production sets.. when?

It never ceases to amaze me how at the heart of right-wing populism is the belief that right-wingers can claim to know more than all the experts on any random subject despite a complete lack of relevant education, experience, or training.

You don't.

You don't know more about climate than the scientists.

You don't know more about vaccines than the doctors.

And you don't know more about workplace safety than the people who specialize in workplace.

That you think you do is just your ego. Which I wouldn't care about except for it how it makes you so easily susceptible to propaganda and manipulation.
Thanks for contributing to the thread.
 

Bitek

Lifer
Aug 2, 2001
10,546
5,061
136
Pointing and Shooting was part of his job. He didn't just randomly grab a gun and start playing with it, playing with it was part of what he was doing.
You are completely hand waiving away Baldwin's responsibility in safe handling of firearms!

Why isn't understanding and following safety procedures part of his job, even as just an actor? Completely absurd.

How do we have hours and hours of TV and movies produced every week and no one else is killing anyone?

This was a half assed, idiotic and incompetent operation that killed someone.

In what other business would this be acceptable?
 

Bitek

Lifer
Aug 2, 2001
10,546
5,061
136
Interview with a professional Hollywood armorer by the Atlantic.

Trimmed for relevance. It's worth a full read

---

Caroline Mimbs Nyce(interviewer): Just right off the bat, what did you make of these charges?

Thomas Pimentel (armourer):
I’m happy about it. This never should have happened. It was definitely preventable. I am married with children, and I’m an armorer. So when I hear that someone gets killed because of negligence, and they leave a mom behind and they leave children behind, it’s horrible.

Nobody should lose their life over make-believe. They shouldn’t. You should expect a level of professionalism and safety in whatever workplace that you’re in. And it was unacceptable.

Nyce: Obviously, there are multiple people being charged here. Do you have any opinion about who’s responsible?


Pimentel: Hannah Gutierrez-Reed, the armorer, was inexperienced. There was live ammunition on the set. That’s just absurd.

And the assistant director never should have been handling any of those firearms or the props. That’s the armorer’s job.

Pimentel: So first of all, if the assistant director was the one who handed (Baldwin) the pistol, there was no professional involved who knew anything about firearms. So that’s hugely concerning.

Baldwin has been doing this long enough. He’s been in a lot of movies, action movies and things like that. If someone hands him a gun, what’s stopping him from looking down and looking through that chamber and saying, “oh, I got rounds in here”? “Why are we dealing with rounds? Are they dummy rounds? Can I inspect the dummy rounds myself?" He’s totally okay to ask that.

Nyce: Do you think safety is partially the actor’s responsibility?

Pimentel: Of course it is. If you do a movie about Ford versus Ferrari, you’re going to drive cars. You get in a race car, and you learn how to drive race cars. You do everything that you have to do to get as competent and proficient in that particular field as possible. Handling firearms is no different.

Anybody that uses guns in a movie should have to go through the exact same training and licensing process that people like me go through: background checks by the FBI, local and state police, insurance, things like that.

[Additional discussion on safety protocols, standards, and what the idiots on Rust were doing vs industry norms]

..

Nyce: That sounds like an acting problem.

Pimentel: Ahh, yes! Thank God somebody finally said it. You’re absolutely right. Which goes back to my original point: These people are so concerned with “My character’s left-handed, so I have to spend six weeks eating soup with my left hand.” There are so many microscopic details that they pay attention to, and yet they gloss over firearm safety and realistic acting with firearms.

...

But nothing has changed in the industry on firearm safety because of what happened with Alec Baldwin. The day that happened, people were calling for—not only did they not want guns in movies, they didn’t want guns at all. All the celebrities came out, and they were tweeting about it. But they’re gone now. They’re on to something else, and nothing has changed.
 

woolfe9998

Lifer
Apr 8, 2013
15,276
12,344
136
Interview with a professional Hollywood armorer by the Atlantic.

Trimmed for relevance. It's worth a full read

---

Caroline Mimbs Nyce(interviewer): Just right off the bat, what did you make of these charges?

Thomas Pimentel (armourer):
I’m happy about it. This never should have happened. It was definitely preventable. I am married with children, and I’m an armorer. So when I hear that someone gets killed because of negligence, and they leave a mom behind and they leave children behind, it’s horrible.

Nobody should lose their life over make-believe. They shouldn’t. You should expect a level of professionalism and safety in whatever workplace that you’re in. And it was unacceptable.

Nyce: Obviously, there are multiple people being charged here. Do you have any opinion about who’s responsible?


Pimentel: Hannah Gutierrez-Reed, the armorer, was inexperienced. There was live ammunition on the set. That’s just absurd.

And the assistant director never should have been handling any of those firearms or the props. That’s the armorer’s job.

Pimentel: So first of all, if the assistant director was the one who handed (Baldwin) the pistol, there was no professional involved who knew anything about firearms. So that’s hugely concerning.

Baldwin has been doing this long enough. He’s been in a lot of movies, action movies and things like that. If someone hands him a gun, what’s stopping him from looking down and looking through that chamber and saying, “oh, I got rounds in here”? “Why are we dealing with rounds? Are they dummy rounds? Can I inspect the dummy rounds myself?" He’s totally okay to ask that.

Nyce: Do you think safety is partially the actor’s responsibility?

Pimentel: Of course it is. If you do a movie about Ford versus Ferrari, you’re going to drive cars. You get in a race car, and you learn how to drive race cars. You do everything that you have to do to get as competent and proficient in that particular field as possible. Handling firearms is no different.

Anybody that uses guns in a movie should have to go through the exact same training and licensing process that people like me go through: background checks by the FBI, local and state police, insurance, things like that.

[Additional discussion on safety protocols, standards, and what the idiots on Rust were doing vs industry norms]

..

Nyce: That sounds like an acting problem.

Pimentel: Ahh, yes! Thank God somebody finally said it. You’re absolutely right. Which goes back to my original point: These people are so concerned with “My character’s left-handed, so I have to spend six weeks eating soup with my left hand.” There are so many microscopic details that they pay attention to, and yet they gloss over firearm safety and realistic acting with firearms.

...

But nothing has changed in the industry on firearm safety because of what happened with Alec Baldwin. The day that happened, people were calling for—not only did they not want guns in movies, they didn’t want guns at all. All the celebrities came out, and they were tweeting about it. But they’re gone now. They’re on to something else, and nothing has changed.
Well, he has a definite opinion on what actors handling prop guns should do, which is check every prop gun they're given. But what he later says implies that actors do not routinely do this. I'm betting 90%+ of the time that actors rely on the people handing them the gun to make sure it's safe. And I'm also betting Baldwin will have one or more industry experts testify to this at trial.
 

Bitek

Lifer
Aug 2, 2001
10,546
5,061
136
1. The person authorized to hand him a "cold gun", not only wasn't the person who handed it to him, but not the person he hired to be the armorer.
2. There was no reason in a rehearsal for him to cock the gun.
3. Hate to tell you, but that revolver doesn't have a safety.
4. There was no reason for him to point it at his 2 victims.
5. There had already been 2 negligent discharges on the set, reasonable care would have kept him from pointing the firearm at a person and pulling the trigger.
#3 There actually may be a mechanical safety on that model.

Not a traditional safety, but it is there on the latest produced replicas.

Beyond what you wrote, the guns should have never been even accessible. They should have been under lock and key.

The AD and actor should have known not to touch them regardless.

They should have known to be able to inspect them.

There should have been training and daily safety briefings that cover all that.

The armorer alleges that Baldwin skipped some of the skill training that was offered (cross draw) but he was then practicing those maneuvers with the AD with guns they should not have been accessible nor touching when the shooting occurred.
 
  • Like
Reactions: pcgeek11

igor_kavinski

Diamond Member
Jul 27, 2020
7,540
4,368
106
The armorer alleges that Baldwin skipped some of the skill training that was offered (cross draw) but he was then practicing those maneuvers with the AD with guns they should not have been accessible nor touching when the shooting occurred.
That idiot of an armourer should have quit, especially when the union workers quit over safety reasons.
 

Bitek

Lifer
Aug 2, 2001
10,546
5,061
136
  • Like
Reactions: igor_kavinski

MrSquished

Lifer
Jan 14, 2013
16,717
14,800
136
Sounds pretty violent to me.
Oh Not violent at all. As we've seen you crack pot right wingers are the violent ones.

I am just trying to warn sane people because they think that there are people to talk to on your side. And that's how we will be caught with our pants down.

Moderate and left of moderate people have too much faith in humanity, they don't realize how scummy and subhuman you people really are. There is nobody to talk to in regards to the millions of people like you. As we see people are still trying to speak to you like you are a rational human being with a soul and decency. This is completely wrong.

Sane people need to be warned about the scum that are you.
 

Bitek

Lifer
Aug 2, 2001
10,546
5,061
136
Well, he has a definite opinion on what actors handling prop guns should do, which is check every prop gun they're given. But what he later says implies that actors do not routinely do this. I'm betting 90%+ of the time that actors rely on the people handing them the gun to make sure it's safe. And I'm also betting Baldwin will have one or more industry experts testify to this at trial.
Even if they do, still doesn't make a good case for safety and competence.

Alternate scenario, non-Hollywood:

I want to buy a gun, I go to Cabela's or my local gun store, see something in the case, and ask the salesman if a can handle it.

He takes it out of the case and gives it to me.

Is it ok for me to waive the gun at the people in the store? Ok to pull the trigger? Point it at my face to look at the barrel?
Do you want to be a customer in a store like that? Why not?

What if the salesmen first said it's unloaded?
Ok then? Just trust him?

If he checks it, says it's unloaded, do I still check it?
Yes I fing do.

Do I ever point it at anyone?
No.

Do I ask where is ok to point it, and if it's ok to dry fire it, even after verifying it's empty?
Yes

Do you ever want to be a shopper in a store where these rules are not followed and enforced?
I wouldn't.
 
  • Like
Reactions: pcgeek11

Bitek

Lifer
Aug 2, 2001
10,546
5,061
136
Well, he has a definite opinion on what actors handling prop guns should do, which is check every prop gun they're given. But what he later says implies that actors do not routinely do this. I'm betting 90%+ of the time that actors rely on the people handing them the gun to make sure it's safe. And I'm also betting Baldwin will have one or more industry experts testify to this at trial.
These are not prop guns.

These are working firearms they are recklessly using as props.

You had an actor pretending to be a cowboy, but the very real gun never pretended to be anything different than what it was.

The humans forgot/ignored that, and they killed one of themselves for it
 
  • Like
Reactions: igor_kavinski

balloonshark

Diamond Member
Jun 5, 2008
5,802
2,040
136
So many ways to prevent this accident and plenty of blame to go around but nothing can be done to fix purposeful murders, suicides and shooting that happen on a daily basis. Funny how that works.
 
  • Like
Reactions: igor_kavinski

ASK THE COMMUNITY