Question Alder Lake - Official Thread

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Hulk

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It's the Pentium 4 EE again, maxed beyond reason to try to fend off a very competitive CPU
Same but different I think. Maxed beyond reason for sure. But ADL is a solid architecture with good legs. P4 was a dead end. But hey if they have the yields I guess why not put a new part on the top of the stack?
 

igor_kavinski

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Accord99

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Intel must really be fearing the 5800X3D.
I don't think the 12900KS is meant for the 5800X3D, more for Intel to take some of the remaining benchmarks that the 12900K currently loses to the 5950X. If they worried about the 5800X3D, a 12600KS would be the better counter (given how well the 12600K currently competes with the 5800X), or perhaps a hypothetical 8+0 part.
 
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Markfw

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I don't think the 12900KS is meant for the 5800X3D, more for Intel to take some of the remaining benchmarks that the 12900K currently loses to the 5950X. If they worried about the 5800X3D, a 12600KS would be the better counter (given how well the 12600K currently competes with the 5800X), or perhaps a hypothetical 8+0 part.
Either way its an act of desperation. The 5950x wins in almost everything except gaming at 142 watts. This monster does at least 241 watts or more and still looses most other than gaming(well, the 12900k+4%). And the 5800X3D will take care of that. So it makes it useless, and expensive. The P core is strong, and for single threaded apps, it is great. But consider this, if you are a gamer ? the 5800X3D will be the thing to get, and if you are a productivity person, the 5950x will be the thing to get. So that makes the single P core use case pretty niche.
 
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igor_kavinski

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One could argue that the problem isn't Intel's technology. The actual problem is their insistence to be on top and their refusal and self-denial in accepting defeat. This is what is forcing them to create power hogging products. If they simply accept that they have a good product and their product is good at doing certain stuff, then they can simply market it as such and keep power levels in check because then they don't have to prove anything to anyone. People who see value in their product will still buy it.

Case in point: their ARC GPU. They know it can't compete on performance with the established players so they are being creative in their marketing and showing users what they would gain from their product. This same approach on the CPU side would benefit them too, if they can somehow overcome their massive ego.

You don't see ARM running ads showing how their CPU designs are better than Intel or AMD CPUs. They created their own niche and became successful as a result.
 

Markfw

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One could argue that the problem isn't Intel's technology. The actual problem is their insistence to be on top and their refusal and self-denial in accepting defeat. This is what is forcing them to create power hogging products. If they simply accept that they have a good product and their product is good at doing certain stuff, then they can simply market it as such and keep power levels in check because then they don't have to prove anything to anyone. People who see value in their product will still buy it.

Case in point: their ARC GPU. They know it can't compete on performance with the established players so they are being creative in their marketing and showing users what they would gain from their product. This same approach on the CPU side would benefit them too, if they can somehow overcome their massive ego.

You don't see ARM running ads showing how their CPU designs are better than Intel or AMD CPUs. They created their own niche and became successful as a result.
I re-iterate what you wrote:
'"never again will they be in the windshield" .

This kind of stupidity in a corporate environment is what makes companies go bankrupt. Not saying it will happen anytime soon, but they need to face reality, and be honest with their clients. And try harder. A little modesty might actually work. Well, that and a little better hardware.
 
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Tech Junky

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@igor_kavinski

Stirring the pot doesn't achieve much. For nerds that look at the low level specs know what is what and ignore the marketing. When you dive into the specs and benchmarks those things are usually pointed out. The average consumer though doesn't care and buys whatever the under informed sales person advises them on.

Sales people in most environments don't know jack about the technology beyond the tag on the shelf. Some might have a small amount of info if they're interested enough to dig deeper but, stores don't provide much info on products. If someone is spending $400 on a CPU they probably did some homework on it before doing so. Or they're buying some prebuilt POS from Best Buy or Wal-Mart.
 

Saylick

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One could argue that the problem isn't Intel's technology. The actual problem is their insistence to be on top and their refusal and self-denial in accepting defeat. This is what is forcing them to create power hogging products. If they simply accept that they have a good product and their product is good at doing certain stuff, then they can simply market it as such and keep power levels in check because then they don't have to prove anything to anyone. People who see value in their product will still buy it.

Case in point: their ARC GPU. They know it can't compete on performance with the established players so they are being creative in their marketing and showing users what they would gain from their product. This same approach on the CPU side would benefit them too, if they can somehow overcome their massive ego.

You don't see ARM running ads showing how their CPU designs are better than Intel or AMD CPUs. They created their own niche and became successful as a result.
You know, I think you could have described Nvidia here as well. They just have this mentality that no matter what, they cannot concede in anything. And when I say anything, I mean it. AMD announces Smart Access Memory, and Nvidia immediately announces reBAR. Microsoft announce Direct Storage, and Nvidia announces RTX IO. Intel and AMD work on their upcoming DLSS competitors, and Nvidia announce Streamline. RTX IO is nowhere to be seen, and Streamline came out of the blue as open source. And now, with RDNA 3 on their heels, they are rumored to adopt the same approach as Intel's 12900KS by taking what is going to be largely the same architecture but ramping up clocks out the wazoo so that they do not concede the crown. This mentality can only be ascribed to market leaders, because they have far more to lose than to gain by simply not competing.
 
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Markfw

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@igor_kavinski

Stirring the pot doesn't achieve much. For nerds that look at the low level specs know what is what and ignore the marketing. When you dive into the specs and benchmarks those things are usually pointed out. The average consumer though doesn't care and buys whatever the under informed sales person advises them on.

Sales people in most environments don't know jack about the technology beyond the tag on the shelf. Some might have a small amount of info if they're interested enough to dig deeper but, stores don't provide much info on products. If someone is spending $400 on a CPU they probably did some homework on it before doing so. Or they're buying some prebuilt POS from Best Buy or Wal-Mart.
BUT... Companies buying server hardware are not so dumb.... Anymore. And between the people that have a clue on hardware, and the companies that have a clue buying server hardware, it can really hurt over time. Today is an example. Microsoft, and several businesses buying supercomputers are buying AMD. Many users are still buying AMD. If Intel doesn't "wake up and smell the roses" and stop with the marketing crap, and actually start providing some good hardware, their days are numbered.
 
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igor_kavinski

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Sales people in most environments don't know jack about the technology beyond the tag on the shelf.
I steer clear of sales people and avoid them like the plague. Once I saw a really good deal on an HP tablet with the Tegra SoC. I kept thinking about it so went back to the store to buy it. Except it wasn't where I had seen it. So I asked a salesperson to tell me where it was. He said "sorry but we don't have that here". I said I saw it not two days ago! He said "oh maybe we are out of stock then" and proceeded to try to sell me on some crappy chinese tablet. I said I want Full HD and that HP tablet had a Full HD display. He pointed to the tablet in his hand and said this one has it. I looked at the specs and it was 720p. I told him you don't know the meaning of Full HD. He told me to google it o_O I told him, NO! YOU google it! and walked away. Thankfully, after walking around a bit, I found a whole pile of those HP tablets and bought it. To this day, I behave in a dismissive manner what most would consider rude, whenever a salesperson asks if I need help. I almost feel like shouting, No, but maybe YOU need help? :D
 
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Tech Junky

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@Markfw

It's all relative to the current market desires. When you talk about DC operations and multiples it's a different story compared to the consumer market. There's a threshold to what people are willing to spend no matter the specs spectrum at the time of purchase. Consumers vary in price points from the sub $1000 to sub $2000 and prosumers up to $3000 for systems.

@igor_kavinski

That's the proper response. Like I said.. they don't know jack but the commissions they stand to make from uninformed buyers.
 
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LikeLinus

Lifer
Jul 25, 2001
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@Markfw

It's all relative to the current market desires. When you talk about DC operations and multiples it's a different story compared to the consumer market. There's a threshold to what people are willing to spend no matter the specs spectrum at the time of purchase. Consumers vary in price points from the sub $1000 to sub $2000 and prosumers up to $3000 for systems.

@igor_kavinski

That's the proper response. Like I said.. they don't know jack but the commissions they stand to make from uninformed buyers.
Buddy, you're wasting your time here. It's a lost cause trying to get certain people to understand the mass consumer market vs. a niche product. All the bankruptcy and Intel is dead! talks have been going on for a good 5 years. Not to mention that it's totally derailing the thread regarding the actual product and technology that people want to talk about. It's also spun into some Intel vs. AMD non-sense that has nothing to do with the actual conversation in general.
 

Thunder 57

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Buddy, you're wasting your time here. It's a lost cause trying to get certain people to understand the mass consumer market vs. a niche product. All the bankruptcy and Intel is dead! talks have been going on for a good 5 years. Not to mention that it's totally derailing the thread regarding the actual product and technology that people want to talk about. It's also spun into some Intel vs. AMD non-sense that has nothing to do with the actual conversation in general.
Nevermind. I missed a couple posts before reading yours.
 

Hulk

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Oct 9, 1999
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One could argue that the problem isn't Intel's technology. The actual problem is their insistence to be on top and their refusal and self-denial in accepting defeat. This is what is forcing them to create power hogging products. If they simply accept that they have a good product and their product is good at doing certain stuff, then they can simply market it as such and keep power levels in check because then they don't have to prove anything to anyone. People who see value in their product will still buy it.

Case in point: their ARC GPU. They know it can't compete on performance with the established players so they are being creative in their marketing and showing users what they would gain from their product. This same approach on the CPU side would benefit them too, if they can somehow overcome their massive ego.

You don't see ARM running ads showing how their CPU designs are better than Intel or AMD CPUs. They created their own niche and became successful as a result.
Good point here. I also think this is a big reason has had a "failure to launch" issue with their GPU's. It's hard to jump onto a moving train and land at the front on the first attempt and the GPU business moves quickly. They must come to terms with the fact that their discrete GPU's aren't going to be the best out of the gate, but they can be solid performers, available, and priced reasonably. That would be a success for the initial release. After that they can begin to move from train car to train car to approach the AMD and nVidia cars at the front of the train.
 
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Markfw

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Buddy, you're wasting your time here. It's a lost cause trying to get certain people to understand the mass consumer market vs. a niche product. All the bankruptcy and Intel is dead! talks have been going on for a good 5 years. Not to mention that it's totally derailing the thread regarding the actual product and technology that people want to talk about. It's also spun into some Intel vs. AMD non-sense that has nothing to do with the actual conversation in general.
Derailing the thread ? Talking about Alder Lake, right ? Yes, the insanity behind the 12900KS ? Why don't you respond with something on-topic about this product, instead of personal insults. I guess you can't do that, as you have a personal agenda here.
 

Zucker2k

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Either way its an act of desperation. The 5950x wins in almost everything except gaming at 142 watts. This monster does at least 241 watts or more and still looses most other than gaming(well, the 12900k+4%). And the 5800X3D will take care of that. So it makes it useless, and expensive. The P core is strong, and for single threaded apps, it is great. But consider this, if you are a gamer ? the 5800X3D will be the thing to get, and if you are a productivity person, the 5950x will be the thing to get. So that makes the single P core use case pretty niche.
Here we go again. The 12900K(S) is "useless" because 8p+8e cores don't beat a 16c 5950x in overall multithreaded workloads, and it loses to a yet to be reviewed 5800X3D. Are you seeing your bias here? I mean do you read what you type? Or, do I always have to step in and point out the bias to you? Whether you like it or not, the best all-round processor right now is ADL. Usually, you want to see reputable reviews before making your opinion known, right? RIGHT? Biased much?




Personal attacks are not allowed. How many times do we have to tell you?


esquared
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epsilon84

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Either way its an act of desperation. The 5950x wins in almost everything except gaming at 142 watts. This monster does at least 241 watts or more and still looses most other than gaming(well, the 12900k+4%). And the 5800X3D will take care of that. So it makes it useless, and expensive. The P core is strong, and for single threaded apps, it is great. But consider this, if you are a gamer ? the 5800X3D will be the thing to get, and if you are a productivity person, the 5950x will be the thing to get. So that makes the single P core use case pretty niche.
Its basically a binned 12900K. It's a pretty niche market, but I'm guessing its targeted at the same people who used to buy from Silicon Lottery (now defunct) for the top 1% binned CPUs for a massive markup. It's certainly overpriced for the relative performance (compared to a 12900K/5950X), but useless? There is always the crowd that will pay 25% more for 5% extra performance, just look at the 3090 Ti ;)

Pricing aside, It *is* technically the 'fastest' desktop class CPU if you aggregate its ST/MT/gaming performance:

Will tbe 5800X3D beat it in gaming? Probably, but the 5800X3D isn't even released, so how about we just wait for actual benchmarks before we declare any winners / losers here. I actually think it will be a tight contest in gaming, considering the 12900KS has a 15% clockspeed advantage over a 5800X3D (5.2GHz vs 4.5GHz).

Ultimately, this is a battle that I want no part of, because both CPUs (5800X3D and 12900KS) are overpriced and will be superceded in a few months by faster and cheaper Zen 4 and Raptor Lake chips.

I will just have to be content with my humble 12900K in the meantime :p
 

JoeRambo

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I actually think it will be a tight contest in gaming, considering the 12900KS has a 15% clockspeed advantage over a 5800X3D (5.2GHz vs 4.5GHz).
What matters for gaming is not all out all core speed of 5.2Ghz, but more likely 5.5Ghz ST core, so advantage in clock speed is in range of 15-22% in gaming, probably nearer 22% in most games.
Still 96MB of L3 has merits of it's own, and i fully expect some games will love it, and there will still be more games where 99 percentile FPS will be better on X3D chip.
 

epsilon84

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What matters for gaming is not all out all core speed of 5.2Ghz, but more likely 5.5Ghz ST core, so advantage in clock speed is in range of 15-22% in gaming, probably nearer 22% in most games.
Still 96MB of L3 has merits of it's own, and i fully expect some games will love it, and there will still be more games where 99 percentile FPS will be better on X3D chip.
True, I'm just using the all core turbo as a baseline figure, the 5800X3D will also have a higher ST boost as well, but its just the relative difference in clockspeed/IPC vs the 96MB L3 that will determine which CPU comes out ahead in games.
 

Zucker2k

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True, I'm just using the all core turbo as a baseline figure, the 5800X3D will also have a higher ST boost as well, but its just the relative difference in clockspeed/IPC vs the 96MB L3 that will determine which CPU comes out ahead in games.
I'm sure the 96mb cache is going to ensure the 5800X3D is going to have a different IPC than regular desktop Zen 3.
 

epsilon84

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I'm sure the 96mb cache is going to ensure the 5800X3D is going to have a different IPC than regular desktop Zen 3.
Yeah, goes without saying. I'm sure clock for clock, an 5800X3D has higher 'gaming IPC' than a 12900KS. Clock the 12900KS at 4.5GHz and it would probably lose all gaming benchmarks. At 5.2GHz+? We'll see. I still expect the 5800X3D to come out ahead more often than not, but that's just a guess on my part. Realistically, I don't think there will be that much difference between the two. I feel like the relative differences between CPUs is *way* overblown for gaming. Frankly, its often margin of error stuff, especailly at higher resolutions and detail settings.

Pro gamers with 240-360Hz monitors who run at 1080P low are probably the exception to this rule.
 

Markfw

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Here we go again. The 12900K(S) is "useless" because 8p+8e cores don't beat a 16c 5950x in overall multithreaded workloads, and it loses to a yet to be reviewed 5800X3D. Are you seeing your bias here? I mean do you read what you type? Or, do I always have to step in and point out the bias to you? Whether you like it or not, the best all-round processor right now is ADL. Usually, you want to see reputable reviews before making your opinion known, right? RIGHT? Biased much?
Look at the posts below yours. Many here think the 5800X3D may very well beat the 12900KS, not just me. I am a realist, not a blinded Intel fan.

Biased much ? Do you own both ? No. Do I ? Yes ! And the power draw ?? Everybody knows thats the 12900KS will be a power hog and hot. Its right in the techpowerup title. Best all round ? Show me a review that says that. Everything I read says mixed bag, and thats before the 5800X3D for gaming. I admit right now ADL is best for gaming, but not productivity, and that aligns with most reviews.
 
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