ALCS Poll: Red Sox vs. Yankees

[Red Dawn]

Originally posted by: TheAudit
Pedro has the best hairstyle out of all of them.

LOL Gerry Curl!!!

 

[SP33Demon]

Originally posted by: ThePresence

Originally posted by: SP33Demon

Originally posted by: ThePresence

Originally posted by: SP33Demon

Originally posted by: ThePresence

Originally posted by: SP33Demon

Originally posted by: mattlear

Originally posted by: SP33Demon

Originally posted by: TheAudit
Pedro is his own biggest promoter. You know they want him back, just not as the highest paid pitcher in baseball again.

Yeah, he obviously isn't the *best* pitcher in baseball, but when he's on he's pretty much unstoppable (many Yankee fans would agree with me on that). They compared his stats to Koufax last night on TV, and Pedro has better numbers so he's already a shoe in for the HOF. I think now that he's rediscovered his fastball (93-97mph range in the playoff games??????) he is probably worth at least 10 mil a year plus options. He's proven that he can still be dominant in the playoffs, whether it's giving up 3 runs vs Anaheim and winning or 3 vs NY and losing. He would still be a #1 on any staff that doesn't include the names Santana or R.Johnson. I really hope Boston can resign him... and if not I would wish him well because he's quite an enigma, on and off the field.

I saw that comparison as well.

The one thing I think throws that comparison out of whack is the Complete games. If a pitcher throws 9 innings instead of 6 or 7, of course you expect a higher ERA, or maybe some more losses, etc, because the pitcher is more fatigued. A comparison of total career innings pitched is a somewhat fuzzy stat, because today they are generally earlier innings.

Now, you can throw hard for 6 or seven innings, and have a setup man and reliever come in. Pitchers just don't throw CGs anymore, because strategy has changed. Bring in a new, live arm instead of leaving a guy in there.


I'd be curious to see on average how many innings per game both pitchers pitched.

Pedro is a damn good pitcher, and a few years ago, he was arguably the best in MLB. I'm not sure he was as dominant as Koufax was in his heyday.

-Matt

He's not as dominant now, but he undisputably had the best 2 single seasons of a pitcher ever in 1999 and 2000 with regards to dominance (ERA+).

Did you forget about Guidry in '78?

Guidry 28th. Pedro 2nd (2000) and 9th (1999).

I have no idea what adjusted stats mean, I know his actual stats.
in '78 he was 25-3 with a 1.74 ERA.

ERA+ measures dominance vs the league avg ERA, as well as other factors.

Well, excuse me for not going for that crap. I know what his stats were, not "adjusted" stats. You can make anyone you want into a superstar by "adjusting" their stats.

ERA+ is a well respected stat in the sabermetric world, it the best thing we have to estimate dominance of a pitcher relative to his peers in any given era.

 

[SP33Demon]

Originally posted by: Red Dawn

Originally posted by: SP33Demon
ERA+ measures dominance vs the league avg ERA, as well as other factors.

Other factors=Bullsh!t. While I don't remember Guidry I do remember Koufax, Drysdale, Marichal and Giuson and all 4 were better than Petey.

Other factors meaning park adjustment and other things I can't remember. Look up the formula for ERA+, it's not a secret.

 

[dr150]

Originally posted by: TheAudit
Pedro has the best hairstyle out of all of them.

Damon has the best. He looks like an Alaskan mountain man or redneck truck driver.

I betcha he believes he gets his baseball MOJO from his locks. IMHO, he should chop it off as an offering to get rid of the Curse of the Bambino.

 

[TheAudit]

I think you are better off comparing players from the same generation. Everyone can argue until they are blue in the face about players from different eras. How about two pitchers from the same time frame?

How about Pedro and Clemens?


Pedro

388 games, 321 starts
182 Wins, 76 losses, 3 saves
42 complete games, 16 shutouts
2296 innings pitched
1746 hits, 766 runs, 691 earned runs, 175 hrs, 615 walks,
2653 strikeouts
2.71 ERA 1.03 WHIP .209 BAA


Clemens

640 games, 639 starts
328 wins, 164 losses
117 complete games, 46 shutouts
4493 innings pitched
3846 hits, 1748 runs, 1588 earned runs, 336 hrs, 1458 walks,
4317 strikeouts
3.18 ERA 1.18 WHIP .230 BAA

 

[lordtyranus]

Originally posted by: Red Dawn

Originally posted by: lordtyranus

Originally posted by: Red Dawn

Originally posted by: SP33Demon
ERA+ measures dominance vs the league avg ERA, as well as other factors.

Other factors=Bullsh!t. While I don't remember Guidry I do remember Koufax, Drysdale, Marichal and Giuson and all 4 were better than Petey.

There weren't massive amounts of steriods going around back in the day. Pedro was putting up an ERA under 2 when the league average was above 4.

I don't think the DH existed for all of those players either.

Petey also didn't get a low ERA by pitching complete games like the 4 I mentioned did.

And? The game has changed, pitchers are no longer expected to pitch 9 innings.

Pedro put up a 1.74 ERA when the next best starter was 2.58. Koufax? In his best year he put up a 1.73 ERA when the next best was a 1.98.

Athletes have progressed in time. I doubt any of those old time pitchers could face a player like Bonds.

How about Pedro and Clemens?

Pedro was better during his prime, but his prime lasted for a shorter period of time.

 

[SP33Demon]

Originally posted by: TheAudit
I think you are better off comparing players from the same generation. Everyone can argue until they are blue in the face about players from different eras. How about two pitchers from the same time frame?

How about Pedro and Clemens?


Pedro

388 games, 321 starts
182 Wins, 76 losses, 3 saves
42 complete games, 16 shutouts
2296 innings pitched
1746 hits, 766 runs, 691 earned runs, 175 hrs, 615 walks,
2653 strikeouts
2.71 ERA 1.03 WHIP .209 BAA


Clemens

640 games, 639 starts
328 wins, 164 losses
117 complete games, 46 shutouts
4493 innings pitched
3846 hits, 1748 runs, 1588 earned runs, 336 hrs, 1458 walks,
4317 strikeouts
3.18 ERA 1.18 WHIP .230 BAA

Pedro has better numbers than the Rocket overall. If he actually goes on to pitch as long as Clemens and match his IP, he would destroy Clemens in K's. 2653 K's in 2296 IP to Clemen's 4317 in 4493 IP? No comparison, the only thing you could argue is that Clemens is way more durable (obviously). Wins don't count because that is a function of your team...

 

[geecee]

Originally posted by: SP33Demon
Pedro has better numbers than the Rocket overall. If he actually goes on to pitch as long as Clemens and match his IP, he would destroy Clemens in K's. 2653 K's in 2296 IP to Clemen's 4317 in 4493 IP? No comparison, the only thing you could argue is that Clemens is way more durable (obviously). Wins don't count because that is a function of your team...

The "if" is the key here. Guys like Clemens, and someone not mentioned, Greg Maddux, have had 20 year (or nearly in Maddux's case) careers, performing at consistently high levels. Pedro has yet to reach the 200 win mark. I'm not saying that he won't reach it, nor am I saying he won't hit 300 wins, but Martinez has been exceptional for a relatively short period of time. Maddux pitched 200+ innings/season for almost his entire career (16 out of 19 years, though, granted, he's not a power pitcher) and Clemens has done it in something like 14 out of 21 years. (Pedro has done it in only about half of his playing years to date.) Those two have endured, despite advancing age and somewhat declining skills. Pedro is just starting to reach that age. To say that Pedro's numbers blow away Clemens' fails to take into account that Clemens has pitched to his 42nd birthday and some of those years between 32 and 42 were somewhat less than stellar and not necessarily his prime. The next few years of Pedro's career will really determine how he he can be compared to the Rocket. He could very well end up with similar or worse stats as his velocity falls off a bit and his Ks per innings pitched declines. Dwight Gooden is an example of this. His early years were spectacular, but as he aged and continued to pitch in the league, his stats came back down to earth. Gooden's last 5-6 years really proved he was past his prime. What will happen to Pedro in the next couple of years and will he continue to pitch beyond his prime?

 

[Red Dawn]

Originally posted by: lordtyranus
And? The game has changed, pitchers are no longer expected to pitch 9 innings.

Imagine what Koufax's ERA would have been if he only had to pitch 6 or 7 innings an outing!

Pedro put up a 1.74 ERA when the next best starter was 2.58. Koufax? In his best year he put up a 1.73 ERA when the next best was a 1.98.

The talent now is watered down compared to the 60's.

Athletes have progressed in time. I doubt any of those old time pitchers could face a player like Bonds.

BS, both Drysdale and Gibson would huave drilled him if he stood in that close to the plate when they pitched.

 

[ToBeMe]

Originally posted by: Red Dawn

Originally posted by: lordtyranus
And? The game has changed, pitchers are no longer expected to pitch 9 innings.

Imagine what Koufax's ERA would have been if he only had to pitch 6 or 7 innings an outing!

Pedro put up a 1.74 ERA when the next best starter was 2.58. Koufax? In his best year he put up a 1.73 ERA when the next best was a 1.98.

The talent now is watered down compared to the 60's.

Athletes have progressed in time. I doubt any of those old time pitchers could face a player like Bonds.

BS, both Drysdale and Gibson would huave drilled him if he stood in that close to the plate when they pitched.

That's the truth! The game has changed a lot......some good changes........a lot of bad ones, but, to say Gibby, Drysdale, Rollie, Jim (Catfish) Hunter couldn't have faced these guys and K'ed them is BS..................

 

[TheAudit]

Originally posted by: geecee
What will happen to Pedro in the next couple of years and will he continue to pitch beyond his prime?

He posted his highest ERA, 3.90, of his career by far this year. And his BAA is way up (for him) as well. An aberration or the beginning of a slide?

 

[lordtyranus]

Imagine what Koufax's ERA would have been if he only had to pitch 6 or 7 innings an outing!

Would it be 67% of the next best guy? Doubtful. Heck, in 1964 he didn't even have the lowest ERA in the league.

IMO a players performance relative to others at his time is the best test of how good he is.

BS, both Drysdale and Gibson would huave drilled him if he stood in that close to the plate when they pitched.

Uh ok. So they'll walk him just like every other mediocre pitcher nowadays.

Has any other history dominated the way bonds has? An ESPN stat called estimated run production (or something like that), gives Bonds a figure twice as high as the next best player.

 

[jman19]

Originally posted by: lordtyranus
And? The game has changed, pitchers are no longer expected to pitch 9 innings.

Pedro put up a 1.74 ERA when the next best starter was 2.58. Koufax? In his best year he put up a 1.73 ERA when the next best was a 1.98.

Athletes have progressed in time. I doubt any of those old time pitchers could face a player like Bonds.

They probably couldn't. After all, they weren't on the juice like Barroid is.

 

[Red Dawn]

Originally posted by: lordtyranus

Imagine what Koufax's ERA would have been if he only had to pitch 6 or 7 innings an outing!

Would it be 67% of the next best guy? Doubtful. Heck, in 1964 he didn't even have the lowest ERA in the league.

IMO a players performance relative to others at his time is the best test of how good he is.

BS, both Drysdale and Gibson would huave drilled him if he stood in that close to the plate when they pitched.

Uh ok. So they'll walk him just like every other mediocre pitcher nowadays.

Has any other history dominated the way bonds has? An ESPN stat called estimated run production (or something like that), gives Bonds a figure twice as high as the next best player.

Bah, the day I put faith in egghead statisticians is the day I give up watching the game. I was privildged to watch some of the greats from Koufax, Marichal, Gibson to Clemens and yes Petey. Hell I doubt you and Speedy ever played prganized ball and the closest you came to it was some nerdy computer game.

 

[SP33Demon]

Originally posted by: Red Dawn

Originally posted by: lordtyranus

Imagine what Koufax's ERA would have been if he only had to pitch 6 or 7 innings an outing!

Would it be 67% of the next best guy? Doubtful. Heck, in 1964 he didn't even have the lowest ERA in the league.

IMO a players performance relative to others at his time is the best test of how good he is.

BS, both Drysdale and Gibson would huave drilled him if he stood in that close to the plate when they pitched.

Uh ok. So they'll walk him just like every other mediocre pitcher nowadays.

Has any other history dominated the way bonds has? An ESPN stat called estimated run production (or something like that), gives Bonds a figure twice as high as the next best player.

Bah, the day I put faith in egghead statisticians is the day I give up watching the game. I was privildged to watch some of the greats from Koufax, Marichal, Gibson to Clemens and yes Petey. Hell I doubt you and Speedy ever played prganized ball and the closest you came to it was some nerdy computer game.

Actually, you're wrong R.Dawn... I played Little League b.ball, my dad coached and published a monthly newsletter called the "Baseball Fan Association" and he would take me to games and he'd go on the field since he had a media pass. Got me some pretty cool autographs, like Rose and Bench, Schmitty, Hank Aaron, and Yount/Molitor when they both played for Milwaukee. Also, I played high school ball, freshman, JV (first undefeated team at Lenape High in Medford, NJ where I batted over .500 as the leadoff hitter and went undefeated as a starter); and Varsity as a closer, I had a mean screwball/slider that broke in on righties' hands. Not to mention baseball camp my dad sent me to in Williamsport, PA (site of the Lil League WS if you didn't know) where they made us get up at the asscrack of dawn to practice fielding fundamentals (that was annoying) when I was 15 (I threw so hard for my age that instructors used to call me Samurai cuz I'm half Asian). Or the hundreds of dollars my dad must have spent just taking me to the batting cage. So yeah, I would have to say I've played with the best of em in organized ball.

 

[Red Dawn]

Originally posted by: SP33Demon
Actually, you're wrong R.Dawn... I played Little League b.ball, my dad coached and published a monthly newsletter called the "Baseball Fan Association" and he would take me to games and he'd go on the field since he had a media pass. Got me some pretty cool autographs, like Rose and Bench, Schmitty, Hank Aaron, and Yount/Molitor when they both played for Milwaukee. Also, I played high school ball, freshman, JV (first undefeated team at Lenape High in Medford, NJ where I batted over .500 as the leadoff hitter and went undefeated as a starter); and Varsity as a closer, I had a mean screwball/slider that broke in on righties' hands. Not to mention baseball camp my dad sent me to in Williamsport, PA (site of the Lil League WS if you didn't know) where they made us get up at the asscrack of dawn to practice fielding fundamentals (that was annoying) when I was 15 (I threw so hard for my age that instructors used to call me Samurai cuz I'm half Asian). Or the hundreds of dollars my dad must have spent just taking me to the batting cage. So yeah, I would have to say I've played with the best of em in organized ball.

Oh well, it was just a wild guess.

 

[lordtyranus]

Originally posted by: Red Dawn

Originally posted by: lordtyranus

Imagine what Koufax's ERA would have been if he only had to pitch 6 or 7 innings an outing!

Would it be 67% of the next best guy? Doubtful. Heck, in 1964 he didn't even have the lowest ERA in the league.

IMO a players performance relative to others at his time is the best test of how good he is.

BS, both Drysdale and Gibson would huave drilled him if he stood in that close to the plate when they pitched.

Uh ok. So they'll walk him just like every other mediocre pitcher nowadays.

Has any other history dominated the way bonds has? An ESPN stat called estimated run production (or something like that), gives Bonds a figure twice as high as the next best player.

Bah, the day I put faith in egghead statisticians is the day I give up watching the game. I was privildged to watch some of the greats from Koufax, Marichal, Gibson to Clemens and yes Petey. Hell I doubt you and Speedy ever played prganized ball and the closest you came to it was some nerdy computer game.

Actually, I've played on my high school team for 3 years, varsity left field. Batted 3rd last year.

I'm by no means exceptional, but I have played baseball.