AL MVP race is VERY VERY TIGHT. No Baseball fans on?

[PlatinumGold]

Originally posted by: nitsuj3580

Originally posted by: DogFromDuckhunt
How can you say a player doesn't deserve an MVP trophy when they're voting for players in the NL that aren't even putting up numbers as good as A-Rod is doing in the AL. Just because traditionally voters have voted for players on a team with winning records, doesn't mean they're correct in doing so.

You can't tell me if the Dodgers had A-Rod they wouldn't be making the playoffs and have a very viable chance at the WS. You can't tell me that Boston wouldn't be whooping NYY's ass if they had A-Rod. The man is putting up numbers comparable to, or better than that of Barry Bonds, Sheffield, and Pujols. But because he's on a team that sucks ass he doesn't get the credit he deserves. It isn't his fault that his team sucks, he's going out there every day and giving his best when he could have given up months ago when it was obvious his team had no chance at the playoffs.

Hell, Jason Stark even makes a point FOR A-Rod for MVP in his own article w/out realizing it.

They went 2-20 in their next 22 games -- a stretch of Tigers-like baseball that blew up the season. If we could say, "At least that wasn't A-Rod's fault," we could look at his MVP candidacy in a whole different light. But that isn't the case.

He went 2-for-23 with runners in scoring position during that time. He hit three homers and drove in seven runs (one fewer than Jason Bay drove in Friday in one game). In the first 16 games of that span, he had one homer and two RBI.

Without A-Rod producing the team wins 2 out of 22 games. With him they win 50% of their games, the Rangers go from being the Tigers to a .500 team. How can you say that he isn't valuable?

wow, I read that espn article and didn't even think about that point of view. nice insight.

If the Blue Jays had stayed in it a little longer, the AL MVP would be Delgado's easily.

the opposite way of looking at it is, Arod keeps the Rangers JUST good enough NOT to get the #1 draft pic for the AL.

 

[TheNinja]

NL MVP: Bonds or Pujols
AL MVP: Arod or Chavez or Garciaparra

NL Cy: Schmidt (Prior if he was healthy all year) - I just can't give a Cy Young to what equates to a field goal kicker.
AL Cy: Halladay (Loaiza faltered and the A's big three hasn't been huge)

 

[nitsuj3580]

Originally posted by: PlatinumGold

Originally posted by: nitsuj3580

Originally posted by: DogFromDuckhunt
How can you say a player doesn't deserve an MVP trophy when they're voting for players in the NL that aren't even putting up numbers as good as A-Rod is doing in the AL. Just because traditionally voters have voted for players on a team with winning records, doesn't mean they're correct in doing so.

You can't tell me if the Dodgers had A-Rod they wouldn't be making the playoffs and have a very viable chance at the WS. You can't tell me that Boston wouldn't be whooping NYY's ass if they had A-Rod. The man is putting up numbers comparable to, or better than that of Barry Bonds, Sheffield, and Pujols. But because he's on a team that sucks ass he doesn't get the credit he deserves. It isn't his fault that his team sucks, he's going out there every day and giving his best when he could have given up months ago when it was obvious his team had no chance at the playoffs.

Hell, Jason Stark even makes a point FOR A-Rod for MVP in his own article w/out realizing it.

They went 2-20 in their next 22 games -- a stretch of Tigers-like baseball that blew up the season. If we could say, "At least that wasn't A-Rod's fault," we could look at his MVP candidacy in a whole different light. But that isn't the case.

He went 2-for-23 with runners in scoring position during that time. He hit three homers and drove in seven runs (one fewer than Jason Bay drove in Friday in one game). In the first 16 games of that span, he had one homer and two RBI.

Without A-Rod producing the team wins 2 out of 22 games. With him they win 50% of their games, the Rangers go from being the Tigers to a .500 team. How can you say that he isn't valuable?

wow, I read that espn article and didn't even think about that point of view. nice insight.

If the Blue Jays had stayed in it a little longer, the AL MVP would be Delgado's easily.

the opposite way of looking at it is, Arod keeps the Rangers JUST good enough NOT to get the #1 draft pic for the AL.

not get the #1 draft or not be the Tigers? it's the same thing

 

[RabidMongoose]

NL MVP: Bonds - No Contest
AL MVP: AROD

NL CY Young: Prior
AL Cy Young: Pedro

AROD has already been robbed of a couple of MVP awards. Since there's really nobody standing out, maybe the voters will vote for the best overall player instead of this BS Best Player on a Playoff Team. AROD is the most valuable player in the AL because he individually creates the most runs (not the runs statistic) above what a replacement player at his position would make. The player that contributes the most is the MVP of the league. I'm sure that his team and any other team would love his production.

 

[RabidMongoose]

Originally posted by: lager

Originally posted by: DogFromDuckhunt
The only thing Mueller has over A-Rod is the BA. A-Rod has 20 more HR's, and 30 more RBI's.

Oh, and for no one even coming close to Lopez, Pujols, Sheff, and Bonds? Try looking at A-Rods numbers. He has more HR's and RBI's than nearly all of them... and he's playing on one of the worst teams in the league!

Mueller is NOT A DESIGNATED HITTER! He plays third base.

Who cares about AROD. He plays in a hitter friendly Arlington Ballpark.

And if you adjust those numbers, he's STILL great. He would have one of the best bats while playing gold glove defense at SS.

 

[RabidMongoose]

Originally posted by: PlatinumGold

Originally posted by: DogFromDuckhunt
What the hell? How does a players salery factor into an MVP trophey? I don't care if you pay A-Rod 50 million and Mueller 5 thousand, A-Rod is the better hitter, and defensive player. What a player is paid should have absolutely no bearing on anything.

face it, arod didn't win it when he was having even better years than he is now.

it goes to players from playoff contenders. it has been argued how valuable could arod have been, if he hadn't been on their team, they still would have been in last place. where as, you take away Bonds for eg from the Giants and all of a sudden they aren't even in the playoff race. big difference.

unfortunately for the AL, there aren't as many dominating superstars. so mb dogfrumduckhunt is right and Arod should get it this year.

If Bonds wasn't on the Giants, then they would lose more games. If AROD wasn't on the Rangers, then they would also lose more games. The difference with both players gone is the same. The only thing that is different is that Bonds' teammates have been playing better. In addition, I don't think Bonds himself is worth 14 wins. They would still be in the playoffs without him if you look at it from a statistical standpoint.

 

[PlatinumGold]

Originally posted by: RabidMongoose
NL MVP: Bonds - No Contest
AL MVP: AROD

NL CY Young: Prior
AL Cy Young: Pedro

AROD has already been robbed of a couple of MVP awards. Since there's really nobody standing out, maybe the voters will vote for the best overall player instead of this BS Best Player on a Playoff Team. AROD is the most valuable player in the AL because he individually creates the most runs (not the runs statistic) above what a replacement player at his position would make. The player that contributes the most is the MVP of the league. I'm sure that his team and any other team would love his production.

and yet you choose bonds over Pujols, pujols does have more hits and rbi's than bonds.

 

[RabidMongoose]

Originally posted by: PlatinumGold

Originally posted by: RabidMongoose
NL MVP: Bonds - No Contest
AL MVP: AROD

NL CY Young: Prior
AL Cy Young: Pedro

AROD has already been robbed of a couple of MVP awards. Since there's really nobody standing out, maybe the voters will vote for the best overall player instead of this BS Best Player on a Playoff Team. AROD is the most valuable player in the AL because he individually creates the most runs (not the runs statistic) above what a replacement player at his position would make. The player that contributes the most is the MVP of the league. I'm sure that his team and any other team would love his production.

and yet you choose bonds over Pujols, pujols does have more hits and rbi's than bonds.

No offense, but that is a stupid argument and I didn't think that someone like you (who seems to know/talk a lot about baseball) would say something like that. In general, hits are not much more valuable than walks. Bonds will NEVER get a lot of hits because he WALKS a lot. Who cares about hits or average when you can mainly look at the OBP, where Bonds is getting on base MORE often than he generates an out! .529 OBP to Pujols' .443 - that is a significant difference. Then there's also the case with the SLG - where Bonds is well ahead of Pujols. In addition, RBIs are also a function of the team. It's true that it correlates some with SLG, but also with the OBP of the players in front of you. If the players in front of you get on base a lot more often & you have more ABs, then of course you'll have more RBIs. I'm sure that the players in front of Pujols have a better OBP than the players in front of Bonds.

Overall, Bonds is outproducing Pujols. It's not even close. I didn't pick Bonds because he's on a playoff team; I picked him because he's the best player in baseball.

 

[PlatinumGold]

Originally posted by: RabidMongoose

Originally posted by: PlatinumGold

Originally posted by: RabidMongoose
NL MVP: Bonds - No Contest
AL MVP: AROD

NL CY Young: Prior
AL Cy Young: Pedro

AROD has already been robbed of a couple of MVP awards. Since there's really nobody standing out, maybe the voters will vote for the best overall player instead of this BS Best Player on a Playoff Team. AROD is the most valuable player in the AL because he individually creates the most runs (not the runs statistic) above what a replacement player at his position would make. The player that contributes the most is the MVP of the league. I'm sure that his team and any other team would love his production.

and yet you choose bonds over Pujols, pujols does have more hits and rbi's than bonds.

No offense, but that is a stupid argument and I didn't think that someone like you (who seems to know/talk a lot about baseball) would say something like that. In general, hits are not much more valuable than walks. Bonds will NEVER get a lot of hits because he WALKS a lot. Who cares about hits or average when you can mainly look at the OBP, where Bonds is getting on base MORE often than he generates an out! .529 OBP to Pujols' .443 - that is a significant difference. Then there's also the case with the SLG - where Bonds is well ahead of Pujols. In addition, RBIs are also a function of the team. It's true that it correlates some with SLG, but also with the OBP of the players in front of you. If the players in front of you get on base a lot more often & you have more ABs, then of course you'll have more RBIs. I'm sure that the players in front of Pujols have a better OBP than the players in front of Bonds.

Overall, Bonds is outproducing Pujols. It's not even close. I didn't pick Bonds because he's on a playoff team; I picked him because he's the best player in baseball.

actually, i believe bonds to be the best OFFENSIVE player in baseball. overall player? one should consider D, (bonds is no longer a gold glover). If Arod played in the NL i'd take Arod over Bonds because of his D at the SS position. also, %ages aren't everything. problem with %ages, they don't always take in consideration total numbers. Slugging %age is important, but it isn't the most important. When you watch Vladimir hit, whew, the boy hits balls WAY out of the strike zone OUT of the park. Sheff muscles bad pitches occasionally out of the part, of course not as often as Vladimir does.

Sometimes Bonds takes walks where he could have gotten crucial hit for the team.

 

[RabidMongoose]

Originally posted by: PlatinumGold

Originally posted by: RabidMongoose

Originally posted by: PlatinumGold

Originally posted by: RabidMongoose
NL MVP: Bonds - No Contest
AL MVP: AROD

NL CY Young: Prior
AL Cy Young: Pedro

AROD has already been robbed of a couple of MVP awards. Since there's really nobody standing out, maybe the voters will vote for the best overall player instead of this BS Best Player on a Playoff Team. AROD is the most valuable player in the AL because he individually creates the most runs (not the runs statistic) above what a replacement player at his position would make. The player that contributes the most is the MVP of the league. I'm sure that his team and any other team would love his production.

and yet you choose bonds over Pujols, pujols does have more hits and rbi's than bonds.

No offense, but that is a stupid argument and I didn't think that someone like you (who seems to know/talk a lot about baseball) would say something like that. In general, hits are not much more valuable than walks. Bonds will NEVER get a lot of hits because he WALKS a lot. Who cares about hits or average when you can mainly look at the OBP, where Bonds is getting on base MORE often than he generates an out! .529 OBP to Pujols' .443 - that is a significant difference. Then there's also the case with the SLG - where Bonds is well ahead of Pujols. In addition, RBIs are also a function of the team. It's true that it correlates some with SLG, but also with the OBP of the players in front of you. If the players in front of you get on base a lot more often & you have more ABs, then of course you'll have more RBIs. I'm sure that the players in front of Pujols have a better OBP than the players in front of Bonds.

Overall, Bonds is outproducing Pujols. It's not even close. I didn't pick Bonds because he's on a playoff team; I picked him because he's the best player in baseball.

actually, i believe bonds to be the best OFFENSIVE player in baseball. overall player? one should consider D, (bonds is no longer a gold glover). If Arod played in the NL i'd take Arod over Bonds because of his D at the SS position. also, %ages aren't everything. problem with %ages, they don't always take in consideration total numbers. Slugging %age is important, but it isn't the most important. When you watch Vladimir hit, whew, the boy hits balls WAY out of the strike zone OUT of the park. Sheff muscles bad pitches occasionally out of the part, of course not as often as Vladimir does.

Sometimes Bonds takes walks where he could have gotten crucial hit for the team.

It's arguable on how much AROD's defense can actually be worth. Is it even possible for his defense to make up for the huge deficit in their overall numbers?

Take EQA (Equivalent Average - adjusts to park, etc...it's made to cover the aspects of offense like OBP, SLG, SB, CS, etc. A .300 EQA is about as common as a .300 AVG). Bonds has a .421 EQA. Who is the next closest? Pujols at .366. AROD is at .327. Can his defense make up for that gigantic gap? I don't think it can because if it does, then he's probably flying around with wings.

Bonds RARP (runs above replacement player - which rewards players at less offensive-oriented positions like SS - basically says how many more runs a player is better or worse at than a replacement level player at his position)...Bonds is at 104.4, Pujols is at 90.4, and AROD is at 76.8. But this is a counting stat and so would reward Pujols more because he has more plate appearances.

As for 'sometimes' Bonds takes walks where he could get a crucial hit - over the course of a 162 game season, that would not have a huge impact on a player's overall production. If some statistics actually showed that it was close, then you would think about this. Otherwise, if his production is still phenomenal, then it really wouldn't be significant. Additionally, you can't prove what you stated. His numbers in every situation still look great. Perhaps the other pitcher is giving him intentional 'unintentional' walks instead. It wouldn't surprise me since he has more intentional walks than entire teams.

 

[AntaresVI]

I wish the MVP award actually meant what the name implies - the player that is most valuable to his team. Not the best player in the league.

Anyway, i vote Thome.

 

[wyvrn]

That's a stupid argument. Bonds gets on base more and is a feared power hitter. Saying he doesn't hit more ball pitches out of the park (versus strikes) is a reason to discount him for the MVP? The FACT of the matter is he is the best hitter and most productive player in the NL. Pujols is having a great year but I would give it to Bonds.

As for as A-rod is concerned, he is the best player in baseball overall and it's a shame he plays for a weak team. I think it is stupid to give an award 97% of the time to players on playoff teams; really we should be rewarding the best PLAYER and not good players with the most talent around them. They should rename the award PLAYER of the YEAR and dispense with the most valuable crap. It's a shoddy award, imo.

Originally posted by: PlatinumGold

Originally posted by: RabidMongoose

Originally posted by: PlatinumGold

Originally posted by: RabidMongoose
NL MVP: Bonds - No Contest
AL MVP: AROD

NL CY Young: Prior
AL Cy Young: Pedro

AROD has already been robbed of a couple of MVP awards. Since there's really nobody standing out, maybe the voters will vote for the best overall player instead of this BS Best Player on a Playoff Team. AROD is the most valuable player in the AL because he individually creates the most runs (not the runs statistic) above what a replacement player at his position would make. The player that contributes the most is the MVP of the league. I'm sure that his team and any other team would love his production.

and yet you choose bonds over Pujols, pujols does have more hits and rbi's than bonds.

No offense, but that is a stupid argument and I didn't think that someone like you (who seems to know/talk a lot about baseball) would say something like that. In general, hits are not much more valuable than walks. Bonds will NEVER get a lot of hits because he WALKS a lot. Who cares about hits or average when you can mainly look at the OBP, where Bonds is getting on base MORE often than he generates an out! .529 OBP to Pujols' .443 - that is a significant difference. Then there's also the case with the SLG - where Bonds is well ahead of Pujols. In addition, RBIs are also a function of the team. It's true that it correlates some with SLG, but also with the OBP of the players in front of you. If the players in front of you get on base a lot more often & you have more ABs, then of course you'll have more RBIs. I'm sure that the players in front of Pujols have a better OBP than the players in front of Bonds.

Overall, Bonds is outproducing Pujols. It's not even close. I didn't pick Bonds because he's on a playoff team; I picked him because he's the best player in baseball.

actually, i believe bonds to be the best OFFENSIVE player in baseball. overall player? one should consider D, (bonds is no longer a gold glover). If Arod played in the NL i'd take Arod over Bonds because of his D at the SS position. also, %ages aren't everything. problem with %ages, they don't always take in consideration total numbers. Slugging %age is important, but it isn't the most important. When you watch Vladimir hit, whew, the boy hits balls WAY out of the strike zone OUT of the park. Sheff muscles bad pitches occasionally out of the part, of course not as often as Vladimir does.

Sometimes Bonds takes walks where he could have gotten crucial hit for the team.

 

[RabidMongoose]

Originally posted by: LeRocks
I wish the MVP award actually meant what the name implies - the player that is most valuable to his team. Not the best player in the league.

Anyway, i vote Thome.

The best player in the league would naturally be the most valuable to his team.

 

[Corporate Thug]

Pujols

 

[PlatinumGold]

Originally posted by: RabidMongoose

Originally posted by: PlatinumGold

Originally posted by: RabidMongoose

Originally posted by: PlatinumGold

Originally posted by: RabidMongoose
NL MVP: Bonds - No Contest
AL MVP: AROD

NL CY Young: Prior
AL Cy Young: Pedro

AROD has already been robbed of a couple of MVP awards. Since there's really nobody standing out, maybe the voters will vote for the best overall player instead of this BS Best Player on a Playoff Team. AROD is the most valuable player in the AL because he individually creates the most runs (not the runs statistic) above what a replacement player at his position would make. The player that contributes the most is the MVP of the league. I'm sure that his team and any other team would love his production.

and yet you choose bonds over Pujols, pujols does have more hits and rbi's than bonds.

No offense, but that is a stupid argument and I didn't think that someone like you (who seems to know/talk a lot about baseball) would say something like that. In general, hits are not much more valuable than walks. Bonds will NEVER get a lot of hits because he WALKS a lot. Who cares about hits or average when you can mainly look at the OBP, where Bonds is getting on base MORE often than he generates an out! .529 OBP to Pujols' .443 - that is a significant difference. Then there's also the case with the SLG - where Bonds is well ahead of Pujols. In addition, RBIs are also a function of the team. It's true that it correlates some with SLG, but also with the OBP of the players in front of you. If the players in front of you get on base a lot more often & you have more ABs, then of course you'll have more RBIs. I'm sure that the players in front of Pujols have a better OBP than the players in front of Bonds.

Overall, Bonds is outproducing Pujols. It's not even close. I didn't pick Bonds because he's on a playoff team; I picked him because he's the best player in baseball.

actually, i believe bonds to be the best OFFENSIVE player in baseball. overall player? one should consider D, (bonds is no longer a gold glover). If Arod played in the NL i'd take Arod over Bonds because of his D at the SS position. also, %ages aren't everything. problem with %ages, they don't always take in consideration total numbers. Slugging %age is important, but it isn't the most important. When you watch Vladimir hit, whew, the boy hits balls WAY out of the strike zone OUT of the park. Sheff muscles bad pitches occasionally out of the part, of course not as often as Vladimir does.

Sometimes Bonds takes walks where he could have gotten crucial hit for the team.

It's arguable on how much AROD's defense can actually be worth. Is it even possible for his defense to make up for the huge deficit in their overall numbers?

Take EQA (Equivalent Average - adjusts to park, etc...it's made to cover the aspects of offense like OBP, SLG, SB, CS, etc. A .300 EQA is about as common as a .300 AVG). Bonds has a .421 EQA. Who is the next closest? Pujols at .366. AROD is at .327. Can his defense make up for that gigantic gap? I don't think it can because if it does, then he's probably flying around with wings.

Bonds RARP (runs above replacement player - which rewards players at less offensive-oriented positions like SS - basically says how many more runs a player is better or worse at than a replacement level player at his position)...Bonds is at 104.4, Pujols is at 90.4, and AROD is at 76.8. But this is a counting stat and so would reward Pujols more because he has more plate appearances.

As for 'sometimes' Bonds takes walks where he could get a crucial hit - over the course of a 162 game season, that would not have a huge impact on a player's overall production. If some statistics actually showed that it was close, then you would think about this. Otherwise, if his production is still phenomenal, then it really wouldn't be significant. Additionally, you can't prove what you stated. His numbers in every situation still look great. Perhaps the other pitcher is giving him intentional 'unintentional' walks instead. It wouldn't surprise me since he has more intentional walks than entire teams.

For the record. i do agree with you regarding bonds. i just wanted to try one of the anti bonds arguments i hear all the time. i'm sure you probably remember me for the bonds MVP thread i started a while back.

 

[tokamak]

i never bought into the whole "Rangers are crappy so a-rod cant win" argument. they'd be 10x crappier without him.

 

[cliftonite]

My vote (if i had one) would go to Jorge Posada

 

[prvteye2003]

Originally posted by: DogFromDuckhunt
Ummm.. A-Rod? I can't believe Posada would even be considered for MVP of the AL. A-Rod is batting .300, has 47 HR's, 112 RBI's. If A-Rod doesn't win it this year, I honestly don't think he ever will. He is the best player in the AL hands down.

A-Rod Ranger fan here. I have to totally agree with you.

 

[BlamoHammer]

The MVP award should go to the player that made the biggest impact on his team. I dont think it should be given to someone that kept a crappy team from being even crappier. If you are going to go on pure statistics alone, thats why the Silver Slugger award exists. Let ARod start a collection of those. ARod's contract is a major reason the Rangers cant contend.

I will agree that this year is hard to judge in the AL. I like the Shannon Stewart argument. He wont win because of the voters love affair with pure stats but I think he made the biggest difference for his team in terms of winning and losing. And in the NL its Bonds no question. They dont make the playoffs without him IMO. He won at least 4 games by himself in the final AB and countless more by his presence and contributions. Bonds is the best player I have seen in my lifetime.

 

[wyvrn]

ARod's contract is a major reason the Rangers cant contend.

You are clueless. The Rangers have spent tons of money (in addition to Arod's contract) the last few years on expensive but underproducing free agents. The owner does not have a tight wallet in regards to other players. The problem is that the owner PAYS TOO MUCH to ALL guys he signs, while smaller market teams work on their farm system and have competitive teams for much less salary. With or without Arod's contract, the Rangers would still be a bad team.

Thankfully this year they have committed to a youth movement, and you can see it in their improved play. I believe they had the best record in baseball for a month this year. That is a huge improvement over years past, especially considering that they play in a very strong division. Arod is a cornerstone on a young and coming group of infielders, and our farm teams are stacked with young outfielders and pitchers that should make the next few seasons pretty exciting in Texas. Add in Arod's positive clubhouse presence, and you have the makings of a good team.