• Guest, The rules for the P & N subforum have been updated to prohibit "ad hominem" or personal attacks against other posters. See the full details in the post "Politics and News Rules & Guidelines."

Discussion Airlines and oil giants are on the brink. No government should offer them a lifeline

NTMBK

Diamond Member
Nov 14, 2011
9,154
2,376
136

This pretty much sums up how I feel. We should be taking this opportunity to change long term habits and behaviours. Don't prop up the industries destroying our ecosystem. Let the polluters go to the wall, and support the workers instead.

We need fewer plane journeys, fewer car journeys, and lower consumption. We don't need "stimulus".
 

NTMBK

Diamond Member
Nov 14, 2011
9,154
2,376
136
it doesnt matter with Donald in office. in the end the lower and middle class will pay for everything with their taxes and the rich will get another break. Permanent.
Screw that. Protest. Kick up a fuss. Don't let them get away with ruining the planet.
 

Bitek

Diamond Member
Aug 2, 2001
9,177
3,187
136
Not at the top of my priority list, however I would save the airlines way before oil companies.

Oil companies have lied their asses off wrt pollution (many types) and climate change. They also have extracted vast wealth from below market permitting practices enabled by corruption and influence peddling, with little return back to communities they operate in and impact.

Lastly their products pose a danger to health, and subsidizing them inhibits the takeover of next gen energy and transportation fuels.

Otoh, there are no long range rapid transportation methods that could replace airlines. No mainland American is taking a train to London or Honolulu.
We should force concessions and changes in exchange for bailing them out, but they are needed.
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: Brainonska511

pmv

Diamond Member
May 30, 2008
7,639
2,815
136

This pretty much sums up how I feel. We should be taking this opportunity to change long term habits and behaviours. Don't prop up the industries destroying our ecosystem. Let the polluters go to the wall, and support the workers instead.

We need fewer plane journeys, fewer car journeys, and lower consumption. We don't need "stimulus".
In theory, yes, Monbiot is morally right, but wildly optimistic. All these problems are immensely complicated, and on top of that involve immensely powerful ensconced vested interests who will do everything they can to mess with you if you even attempt to fix things. It's like trying to solve a crossword in a tornado, or a sudoku while under artillery bombardment.
 

sandorski

No Lifer
Oct 10, 1999
68,115
3,157
126
One alternative I have heard is to Bail them out, but take a Percentage Control of them, essentially Nationalizing them. This offers 2 advantages: 1- an ability to recover the funds put into them once the Economy recovers; 2- especially with the Fossil Fuel Industry, a path to winding down their operations.

1 seems a no brainer that really should just be the Default, albeit somewhat politically difficult to sell in some jurisdictions.

2 would only work if a program were set in place where the whole Industry was scheduled to end, regardless of taking Bailout. That said, such a Nationalization project could be extended past the Covid-19 shutdown in order to ease the transition, but for Investors and Employees.
 

Bitek

Diamond Member
Aug 2, 2001
9,177
3,187
136
Fed already bailed out the cruise lines. Trump and Mnuchin bailed out the airlines. You can be 100% sure the oil industry will be bailed out as well. Doesn't matter what you wish. You have no power.
Sad, but true. Still don't like it.
 

MtnMan

Diamond Member
Jul 27, 2004
5,283
3,396
136
OMG, the CEO's will have to get by on an 8 digit bonus package instead of their normal 9 digit stipend.
 

DrunkenSano

Diamond Member
Aug 8, 2008
3,875
451
126
No bonuses should be given to anyone in upper management until every cent from the bailout money (this bailout and previous bailout included) is paid back with interest at a rate that the average Joe is able to get from their own loans.
 

IronWing

No Lifer
Jul 20, 2001
61,191
14,044
136
One alternative I have heard is to Bail them out, but take a Percentage Control of them, essentially Nationalizing them. This offers 2 advantages: 1- an ability to recover the funds put into them once the Economy recovers; 2- especially with the Fossil Fuel Industry, a path to winding down their operations.

1 seems a no brainer that really should just be the Default, albeit somewhat politically difficult to sell in some jurisdictions.

2 would only work if a program were set in place where the whole Industry was scheduled to end, regardless of taking Bailout. That said, such a Nationalization project could be extended past the Covid-19 shutdown in order to ease the transition, but for Investors and Employees.
As soon as you nationalize an industry, the government has an incentive to keep it alive as long as possible.
 

Fenixgoon

Lifer
Jun 30, 2003
27,634
2,631
126
As soon as you nationalize an industry, the government has an incentive to keep it alive as long as possible.
the government already has incentive to keep these companies alive as long as possible for the large programs (f35, carriers, the really big stuff). those take so long and cost so much money, in some ways it's an exercise in sunk cost fallacy. not to mention the number of jobs involved.

at the same time, the government is frequently asking a company to do something that hasn't been done before and requires massive R&D. so i get the time delays and cost overruns. JWST, for example, is absolutely groundbreaking (err...space breaking?) despite all its setbacks. it really will revolutionize our view of the universe when it finally gets deployed.

there are some things where i do think the contractors should be on the hook though. from my time working for the navy, for example, we had our own structural analysis team and the contractor had theirs. sometimes the structural analyses would differ - how at risk is a part of breaking, or when should it be repaired/replaced? why not just have the contractor do all the work and hold them liable if they screw up? i suppose the answer to that is while the contractor might be on the hook for a lot of money, it's far more significant and impactful when you're the one trying to fight a war and suddenly you find out your entire fleet is about to break.
 

SteveGrabowski

Diamond Member
Oct 20, 2014
3,374
1,803
136
Socialism for corporations is the only acceptable form of socialism for a conservative.
Like Chomsky has always said, nanny state for the rich and powerful, tough love and market discipline for the rest of us. Fuck this country.
 

NTMBK

Diamond Member
Nov 14, 2011
9,154
2,376
136
One alternative I have heard is to Bail them out, but take a Percentage Control of them, essentially Nationalizing them. This offers 2 advantages: 1- an ability to recover the funds put into them once the Economy recovers; 2- especially with the Fossil Fuel Industry, a path to winding down their operations.

1 seems a no brainer that really should just be the Default, albeit somewhat politically difficult to sell in some jurisdictions.

2 would only work if a program were set in place where the whole Industry was scheduled to end, regardless of taking Bailout. That said, such a Nationalization project could be extended past the Covid-19 shutdown in order to ease the transition, but for Investors and Employees.
The main problem with that plan is that you need the government to not drastically switch direction every 4-8 years. 4 years of managed decline by the Blue team can easily be reversed by 4 years of stimulus by the Red team.

The only way to get permanent change out of this broken system is to take dramatic, irreversible steps when a crisis hands you the opportunity. Change the playing field entirely- eliminate the polluting corporations when the chance is given, instead of letting them limp on as corporate zombies for another 30 years.
 

sandorski

No Lifer
Oct 10, 1999
68,115
3,157
126
The main problem with that plan is that you need the government to not drastically switch direction every 4-8 years. 4 years of managed decline by the Blue team can easily be reversed by 4 years of stimulus by the Red team.

The only way to get permanent change out of this broken system is to take dramatic, irreversible steps when a crisis hands you the opportunity. Change the playing field entirely- eliminate the polluting corporations when the chance is given, instead of letting them limp on as corporate zombies for another 30 years.
True enough. The main underlying Principle at play is: Why shouldn't it take an equivalent Stake in it, just like any Investor would? It would also prevent 2008 style Bonuses given to the Obesely Wealthy simply because the Tax Payer was merciful and gave them the money instead of the People who could use it more.
 

ASK THE COMMUNITY